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Free Will

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Kat:

Hi Believer,

We all have to come to the point when we can truly accept the sovereignty of God, because He is in charge of everything, "in Him ALL things consist."

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

But this does not mean that we are mindless robots. Think about how great this work that God is doing really is. Out of all the billions of people that have live and are going to live, no two are alike. We are very complicated creatures that have minds capable of the thought process; reasonings, ideas and emotions. We have the capacity to love and feel joy and happiness, have trills and to get all excited about things.  All these things is this life that He has given us to EXPERIENCE, it is the process of us going through the motions and actually living, that God is using to create all these different individuals. No two people will come out of these life experiences the same.  

Now in this age there is also much sadness, grief, pain, all these agonies that we are suffering through as an "experience of evil" to endure and we all will be "humbled" by it, evenually.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Right now we struggle to overcome sin, because our flesh is weak and thinks that there is something to be desired in it. God is teaching us (the hard way) that there is no good in sin, nothing good at all. He is going to let us get a belly full of our carnal/fleshly/beastly ways, then he will bring us to Him, the few now, the many later.  Even though we do not have a 'free will' we each will have had a life experience and will have gained much from it. It is so hard for us to comprehend in a rational way how this will all turn out good. But I look at the bads things we must experience as a backdrop that we are forming, so that we will turly be able to appreciate the good when God opens our eyes to see the light. It is a slow hard process, gaining a knowledge of 'good and evil,' but be assured that God is going to see it through to the end, when He shall be "all in all."

1Co 15:28  Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

When we become one with God, in the very image of God, we will not sin anymore, that is "eonian life" that the few will reciev at His return. Later the many will be saved, because He "loves the world" and "God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." Praise God!!!

John 3:16 For God so loves the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not be perishing, but be having eonian life.
v. 17  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


mercy, peace and love
Kat

Believer:
Thank you  ;D
I believe that I finally understand it. I feel more peace now.

To be honest, I'm glad that I don't have free will... just imagine what would have happened if the human race had had that  :-\ I feel more safe with God in control.
Also, since I read the truth and understood it the way Ray teaches, I realize that so many religions don't know how GREAT and POWERFUL our God is. With new knowledge, I finally feel how small I am and that we have no idea about the awsomeness of God  8) well, I can only imagine. I can't wait to see God and Jesus! WOW!

Thank you for all the input and for helping me see clearer. I appreciate it seriously! Thanks to God for wonderful peeps like you to help your fellow believers!

 :D

Craig:
The hardest thing to grasp about free will is the fact that we have free choice.

We are free to choose whatever path and decision we want, we never make a choice against our will.  But what causes us to make the choices we do?  Our upbringing, our environment and the way we were created, to name a few.  We just don't realize the choices we make are due to outside influences, our choices appear to be of our free will.  We are all beasts.

The hard part for me is the choices that are forced on people.  A young lady is not choosing to be raped, a child is not choosing to be kidnapped and murdered, etc.  But that has more to do with the evil in the world than any of our choices.  We are subject to these evils because we are being created in the image of God, to know good and evil and once God becomes all in all our choices will only be to do good we will have experienced or did evil and will learn/know the consequences.  What is 70-80 years on earth when it comes to the bigger picture of living in the ages with God as his children? the time in our physical bodies is just a blink.

Free will is the hardest thing to grasp that I have been privilaged to learn.  I still struggle with it, not that we don't have free will; I struggle with the depth of evil that exists and mans choices to carry it out.  That is hardest thing to grasp.

Craig

Ninny:
Yes, Craig..you're right...this is the hardest part to understand..maybe one day we will..
Kathy :-\

Roy Coates:

--- Quote from: Craig on February 22, 2010, 07:01:26 AM ---The hardest thing to grasp about free will is the fact that we have free choice./quote]

My understanding of Ray's teaching is that free will and free choice are the same thing. We have a will and we make choices but they are by no means free. If there is (and there always are) any cause, influence, preference or what ever else you call it then it is not free.

Ray likened it to placing an order at a resturaunt "have you made a choice it" "thr brisket is excelent today" "ok I was going to have this but I will have that" The choice made was not free it was based on what the resturaunt wait staff suggested.

Ray covers free choices here in the last paragraph

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5154.0

Now is free will, making a choice?  Let’s look at the definition of choose.
Choose - To select from a number of possible alternatives (The American Heritage college Dictionary). 
That’s what choose is.  Where do you see free will in that?  Where is it free? 
You look at something, your brain says I can have this or that….how is that free?  So you just select what you prefer, don’t forget that.  We’ll learn what that word ‘free’ means, it’s not free at all.  So what is choice?  You select what you prefer!
 
You look at a menu and you make a choice.  Sometimes your waitress will say, ‘have you made a choice yet’?  You say, ‘yes I choose this, I was going to choose that , but I’ll choose this.  Well you know the more I think about it, I think I’ll choose that.’  And your waitress will say, ‘you know our briskets are very good today.’  ‘Then I’ll have that.’ 
You are still just selecting what you prefer.  Your brain says, ‘Ah brisket, that sounds good and juicy, yea that.’  Something makes you, make that choice, you see.  But there is nothing in the definition, to select what you prefer.  There is nothing to do with freedom in there, nothing what so ever, you just select. 

I have said in my paper and many times in conversation that computers make choices. 
Now I have had people send me emails and take exception from that.  This week two people sent me an email in the same day, so this must be floating around out there.
 
There was an article that appeared in the NY Times about Free will.  So some of the things I’ve got was from there.  But here’s what Seth Lloyd says; “If by free will you mean the ability to choose, then a simple laptop computer has some kind of free will.”
There it is.  Isn’t that what I’ve been saying for years, computers make choices.  Right there a scientist says, it has some kind of free will.  Seth Lloyd is an expert on quantum computing and professor of mechanical engineering of the Mass. Institute of Technology.  This guy is not a moron, he’s somebody in the scientific field.  He said if we mean by free will…choices, then laptop computers have that ability. 

But we are going to learn later on, that we are not only talking about free will, but you’ve heard this expression ‘free moral agency.’  That’s kind of lumped in with free will, are they one and the same thing?  Well what they want you to believe is this, if you have free-will, you have what is in effect free moral agency.  Meaning you have the ability to select between what is morally right and sinfully wrong.  You have that power, and you will be held accountable accordingly.  We’re going to find out what a bunch of trash that is. 

Not only laptop computers, but animals make choices.  Animals!  My cats choose between eating something and not eating.  I put something out and Stumpy will come up, smell it and he’ll walk away.  But Furby and Tabby will come up and they’ll smell it and it’s like oh yummy and they eat it.  One made a choice to eat it and one made a choice not to eat it.  They’re animals, for crying out loud.  Are you telling me that animals have free moral agency, theological free moral agency?  Are you telling me that?  Is there any theologian alive that would tell me that?  Well then get off this kick, that free moral agency is the ability to make choices, that’s nonsense.
There’s Baby, she makes choices, Baby is our cat too.  Cats make choices.  Cats don’t have free moral agency!  I believe I said that in my paper. 

We all make choices, you select between which one you prefer.  We’re talking about not only choices, but ‘free’ choices.  So let’s look at the word free.
Free - not determined by A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G beyond its own nature or being. (Webster’s Collegiate) 
There it is.  Free, not determined by ANYTHING.  That’s true freedom, you see. 
Here’s another one, from the American Heritage College Dictionary.  Free - not controlled by obligation or the will of another. 
Now do you have something in you, that is not controlled by anything, except you?  No one else or nothing else, only you control that?  Do you have such a thing?  That’s the question.  Cause if you do, you are a god for sure.  But we are going to find out you don’t have such a thing.  That’s not how the human psyche works, the human mind, or the human brain.  It just does not work that way.

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