> General Discussions
Free Will
Craig:
See the many facets of free will/choice.
I am in complete agreement with Ray on this. Ray, makes it easier by encompassing the meaning of both terms to mean the same thing. I was trying to point out (and probably failing) that God does not make us choose anything that goes against our wills. God may be responsible for bringing about the forces that cause us to choose what we do, but we are accountable for the choices we make, because that is our will. We think our choices are free but they are not, they are made by outside and inside influences. In my thought process, it is easier for me to grasp if I separate choice and will (but neither are really free).
Now let me really stir the pot.
Do we ever make choices against our will?
I can't think of a time that a person chooses to do evil against their will, unless I guess, someone holds a gun to your families head and tells you to murder someone. But are you really doing evil then? Is the murderous desire really in your heart?
1) What about choosing to do good when our will is to do evil, do we do this?
2) And if so what is the outcome?
1) Sure we choose to do good when evil is in our hearts all the time. Let's say I lust after a woman that is not my wife but I choose not to give into the lust and have an affair. Why? because I know that it would get me in trouble with my wife, friends, children, financially, because scripture/the law warns me not to, etc. If I lust after a diamond ring at a friends house or a department store do I just take it? No, because I do not want to end up in jail, disappointing loved ones going against God's law, etc, etc. In both examples I've chosen to do good when evil is really in my heart.
2) So what is the outcome? I am held as much accountable in both cases, in God's eyes, as if I had done the evil deeds. It is all from the heart. It doesn't matter that I don't physically break the law. In God's eye if I look at a woman with lust I have committed adultery. If I lust after a ring in my heart I have broken the spiritual law.
So where am I going with this? I don't know.....It just seems like people are almost frozen with fear about their choices, and they shouldn't be. Live your lives and let God change your hearts. Changing our hearts is not going to be always pleasant, as our hearts are nearly always in disagreement with God. It is the fire and trials of life and bad and good choices that purifies our heart and bends our will to that of God's. Don't be frozen with fear, listen to the still small voice inside you and make your choice and live your life. As God changes our wills that small voice grows larger and larger, and our choices easier and easier.
One of Ray's favorite scripture quotes is "For when Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)" Learn Righteousness is key here. It doesn't say "they will be given" is says will LEARN.
That learning does not come easy.
Craig
Deborah-Leigh:
--- Quote ---our hearts are nearly always in disagreement with God
--- End quote ---
A weak and unpurified heart can not be in agreement with God. A converted heart can and will be in the image of God's own Heart.
It is so painful to think that our choices are not in perfect parallel with God and for me this is the walk in faith that until God purifies me, I have to walk faultingly, erroneously and haltingly before Him trusting His Hand will not let me slip or fall. That is perhaps how God is teaching me to trust in Him more and more 8) Cool but painful!
Arc
Joel:
Halo believer :)
Some time ago, when I was at my lowest point in sin, the Words from Revelations came to mind---thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. And I replied-- yes Lord, but I KNOW IT! what are You going to do about that?
My life has been changing for the better ever since, not yet perfect by a long shot, but not as wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked, as I was then, THATS FOR SURE!!!
Thanks be to God, for Ray, and each, and every one of YOU.
Joel
Dawidos:
Have you ever heard about Thomas Talbott, the author of The Inescapable Love of God, who is one of the most prominent voices today supporting the idea of universal salvation? He has provided an interesting insight into the problem of evil and free will, which I found very consistent with LRS's teachings. Below the excerpt from Wikipedia.
In the September 1987 edition of the periodical Christian Scholar's Review, Talbott sought, as he explains in a more recent comment, "to make some ideas then current in the philosophical literature available to a wider audience of non-philosophers."[2] He sought to explain, for example, how [[Alvin Plantinga's] Free Will Defense had transformed the way in which contemporary philosophers approach the so-called problem of evil and why, in particular, even atheistic philosophers came to abandon the claim that evil is logically inconsistent with the existence of God. But at the end of this article, Talbott also ventured into more controversial territory, suggesting ways in which even the tragic suffering of innocent children might contribute, in the end, to the future blessedness of all people (including the children who suffer). In accordance with his affirmation of universal reconciliation, he thus expressed the hopeful belief that "every innocent child who suffers will one day look upon that suffering as a privilege because of the joy it has made possible: the joy of knowing that one has been used by God in the redemption of others, the joy of that final union or reunion in which love's triumph is complete and all separation from others is finally overcome. I would ask but two things of those who [might understandably] reject such a view: first, that they resist the temptation to moralize, and second, that they consider the alternatives carefully.
Issue of free will doesn't need our comments, but what about meaning of suffering described above in the case of children? I'm wondering if the Scripture but God meant it [evil] unto good is the spiritual manifestation of this view. Do you think every evil and suffering (for example nazi camps) is meant unto good in the final outcome by God? I think so, and I think LRS thinks the same way, but I don't remember where he has talked about it.
PS. Recently I've been searching "Modern Christian Universalists database" (in other words people teaching about christian salvation nowadays), trying to find the teachers similiar to LRS.
Dave in Tenn:
I don't think it's more teaching that we need, but more meditation, contemplation, consideration, living with this truth, humility, and wrestling with God over it. To paraphrase one of Ray's emails...'meditate on this for 1000 hours and get back to me'. This demonic doctrine doesn't go out easily.
Since the OP 'Believer' has already replied with thanksgiving and understanding, let's not beat it to death...until the next person asks. ;)
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