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Author Topic: Rich Man, Lazerus, and hades.  (Read 3235 times)

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Lupac

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Rich Man, Lazerus, and hades.
« on: March 01, 2010, 03:07:47 AM »

I was wondering about the Rich Man and Lazarus parable. I've read Ray's paper on it, and I think I understand it. But I was wondering something, why would Jesus use the pagan imagery at all? From what I understand, the Jews, and especially the Pharisees believed in life after death, Abraham's bosom, Sheol/Hades as a place of life after death. What was Jesus saying here?
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jeetkunejimi

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Keep thinking its good for the soul:).
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2010, 07:50:29 AM »



"I was wondering about the Rich Man and Lazarus parable. I've read Ray's paper on it, and I think I understand it. But I was wondering something, why would Jesus use the pagan imagery at all? From what I understand, the Jews, and especially the Pharisees believed in life after death, Abraham's bosom, Sheol/Hades as a place of life after death. What was Jesus saying here?"

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Hi Lupac,
            in your post above you state that you have read Ray's paper of the parable of 'The Rich Man & Lazarus', and you state that you think that you understand it, but with all due respect and love to fully understand any biblical thing one has to constantly use the whole of the scriptures (Psalm 139:17) and if you think in conjunction with this parable, in that Jesus never meant for anyone at that time to get the true meaning of anything he said, then you'd soon realise that it doesn't matter what the Jews thought back then or even now for that matter, the spirit meaning of parables only comes from the revelation of them through the holy spirit of God moving in us.

All Jesus' parables as far as I can see are showing us the eventual salvation of all mankind, this has yet to be revealed to the orthodox world church denominations, except of course for the Universalist Church of America  which is also demonic in its full doctrinal beliefs, because many have taken the 'Carrot' option of being saved anyhow, so they choose to use that to stand for very little and to have a carefree attitude. So as you can see all Jesus is basically saying in this parable is that the Jews had become arrogant with the oracles of God and thought that they were God's golden boys, but in Lazarus is the rest of mankind being saved also, each in their own time, according to God's grand plan for the restitution of all things(Acts 3:19-21). 

There is indeed a great gulf between the Jews and the Gentiles even today, but we can rest-assured that Christ has torn down that veil at the cross and that the grafting in of the gentiles to the Olive tree is well under way if not near completion. The pagan imagery of the Rich man in the fires was of Ghenna or simply showing the people of the time that the Jews as well as the Gentiles will all have to be purged in the Lake of God's corrective Fire, everyone is gonna get purged, no one escapes God's correction. If you have truly been called out from Babylon and have been chosen through no means of your own to election as a part of God's grand plan then you will also soon realise that you've just been dipped in that Fire and are starting to burn now, so that God willing you won't have to see the second death and burn then. So learn to rejoice in that burning. Amen.

God bless you and your loved ones, and keep reading the word and Ray's writings.










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Join me now in my new massive money making business venture, selling asbestos blankets only on Sundays at the exits of Orthodox churches. It's really gonna take off.

Kat

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Re: Rich Man, Lazerus, and hades.
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2010, 11:52:50 AM »


Hi Lupac,

Here is email I found that might help with your question. But below that I put a condensed narration from the article 'Lazarus and the Rich Man' to show you the main points of who this parable is speaking of.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4043.0.html -------

Isn't it possible that Jesus was referring to the actual compartments of Hades in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus? Since Jews believed in such things, isn't it possible Jesus was warning them of Hell since that's what they believed in?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
-Isaac
 

Dear Isaac:
No, Jesus was not warning them of "hell."  Rather Jesus was warning them of HIS judgments;  God's judgments.  Jesus may well have been using an analogy of pagan ideas they were not believing, but Jesus was not literally warning the Children of Israel of the horrors of the pagan GREEK hell of Hades which was borrowed from the pagan Egyptians.  God warns against paganism. He assuredly does not break His own declarations by then using pagan religious doctrines to fulfill His Own Judgments.


http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html ----------

The description of the Rich manís clothing and the position of Lazarus in Abrahamís bosom are the two vital keys in understanding this whole parable.
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"Now the poor man came to die and he is carried away by messengers into Abrahamís bosom."

Impossible. This statement if taken literally is neither historical nor Scriptural. Many say this represents Lazarus in Heaven. How, pray tell, could Lazarus be in Heaven while his Lord was still on the earth?
v
Remember how Paul told us of Hymeneus and Philetus who "...swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has ALREADY OCCURRED [as defenders of a literal interpretation also contend] subverting the faith of some." (II Tim. 2:18)? Lazarus was carried (in the parable) into Abrahamís bosom. Abrahamís bosom is not the reward of the saved. Abrahamís bosom is not Heaven. Furthermore, no more than one person could fit into Abrahamís bosom. Itís a parable.

When Jesus gave this parable was Abraham alive in heaven or dead in his grave?
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The Pharisees may have been hypocrites, but they, nonetheless, were highly educated and familiar with the Hebrew Scriptures. They knew what "Purple and Fine Linen" symbolized. The name "Lazarus" wouldnít necessarily have meant too much to them (it was a common name) until we find him "in the bosom of Abraham." Now they knew for sure which Lazarus our Lord was making reference to. And when they were told that the rich man had "Moses and the Prophets" there was little doubt left. And this rich man had "five brothers." That clinched it. Surely they knew for certain who these men are.

And although they probably hadnít a clue as to the real meaning of the parable, there was no doubt that our Lord did not portray the rich man in a very favorable light.
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There is only one man who Scripturally fits all the descriptions of the "rich man" in this parable. Only one person who "personifies" all of the symbols and identifying clues given of this rich man. And that man is:  "JUDAH !"

But not just Judah as an historical individual, but collectively. All Israel under the headship of Judah, the Jews. And the Jews were "rich."

Beginning back in Gen. 15:14 God prophesied that Abrahamís descendants were to be very rich. "And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance."
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But who then is this "Lazarus?"

The answer is not far to find when we see where he is: "in Abrahamís bosom." Being in someoneís bosom shows a very close emotional relationship and position of honor. Christ likens Himself as being in the "bosom" of His Father (Jn 1:18). And John, likewise, who was very fond of Jesus leaned back into Jesusí bosom (Jn 13:23). To be in the bosom of Abraham, or the bosom of Christ, or the bosom of the Father, are certainly positions of great honor.
v
So Judah is not in the bosom of Abraham, but Lazarus is. Why? Who is this "Lazarus" that he should have such a lofty position of honor with the Father of the faithful?

I said earlier that the Jews, undoubtedly, understood who Christ was referring to in both the Rich man and Lazarus. Remember that the Jews of Jerusalem knew Hebrew. Their scriptures were written in Hebrew. And they were a lot closer to these symbols and the Hebrew language than we are today.

"And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said

"Behold, to me thou hast given no seed; and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir." (Gen. 15:2-3).
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"This Eliezer of Demascus ... born in my house IS MINE HEIR" (Gen. 15:2-3)

It appears that either Eliezer becomes Abrahamís heir, or he receives nothing.
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As a Gentile, all he can ever hope for are the spiritual "crumbs" that fall from the Rich manís table. Not to fear: Through faith God works many miracles.
v
When Christ entered Capernaum a centurion [a Roman, a Gentile] asked Christ to heal his boy. Christ said He would come. The Centurion said He need only to "say the word" and he would trust Christ for the healing!

"When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to them that followed, ĎVerily I say unto you I have not found so great faith no, not in Israelí" (Mat. 8:5-10).

Why then, are the Gentiles relegated to "dogs?" Not in all Israel did our Lord find such faith as in these GENTILE "DOGS!" But "Judah" gets all the blessings while the "Gentile" dogs get the crumbs? Ah, just when we think things are going bad and God isnít fair, He shows us His strange and marvelous wisdom!

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and the west [Gentiles], and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of Heaven, but the children of the kingdom [Judah--the Jews] shall be cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Mat. 8:11-12).

Christ is not telling us that "Jews" from the East and "Jews" from the West will sit down with Abraham, but that the "Jews" shall be cast out." Thatís contradictory. Itís the "Jews" who are the "children of the kingdom" who are "cast out." And those from the East and West are "GENTILES." Christ is telling us who these "many" are because He is commenting on the faith that God has given to this Centurion Gentile.
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When it comes to Godís blessings, faith is thicker than blood.

God has not "cast off" the Gentiles!

So we find "Lazarus" [Gk: helpless] begging scraps from a rich manís table. Can "helpless" find "help?" Will God have mercy on him just as He did the Syro-Phoenician woman and the Centurion? Yes!

"LAZARUS" IS "ELIEZER"!!
v
It is the Gentiles that God is primarily dealing with today! Paul says there is to be only a "remnant" of Jews. His calling was to the nations. However, Paul knew that God was still calling a "few" of the Jews. "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh [Jews], and might save some of them" (Rom. 11:14).

For nearly two thousand years now God is calling primarily the Gentiles..
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

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gmik

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Re: Rich Man, Lazerus, and hades.
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2010, 07:23:38 PM »

Always good to read again!
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