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Author Topic: vicarious atonement  (Read 1812 times)

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vicarious atonement
« on: March 02, 2010, 04:04:04 PM »

Ive come here simply for the reason I need some insight. And I have found that of all the sites out there this one BT does not use mans doctrine when seeking out the truths of His Word. I  do not accept the teaching that Jesus was a substitute, that He died instead of me. Perhaps some of you do, I have been looking to see if there has been any work done on this in the LOF, I have not found any. Any help would be great. Am Incorrect in reading and understanding that in IICor.5:21 that Jesus was made a "sin offering" and not made sin?  thank you


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Re: vicarious atonement
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2010, 05:26:29 PM »


Since it is appointed for all men  'once to die and then the judgment' you me and all must die.  If you will look under the Introductions Announcements, and More of Ray's Teachings portion of this forum under More of Ray's Teachings,  Kat posted the October 2006 biblestudy 'Was Christ Made Sin?


Charles O

ps now I'm getting ready to re-read it! 


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Re: vicarious atonement
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 05:30:53 PM »

Hi Micah 7:9,

Here are a few excerpts from articles, where I put in bold to show where Ray mentions that 'Jesus Christ died FOR us.' The last one is from the Bible study 'Was Christ Made Sin?' -------------

Imagine that, the very ones who CRUCIFIED THE SON OF GOD, are now forgiven (they were fully forgiven even before Christ expired on the tree), while people in India who tell a lie (p. 6), will burn in the fires of Hell for all eternity, without as much mercy as a drop of water! And notice one thing more: These evil-minded cowards didn’t even need to use the "ignorance defense." First of all, they have no defense:

"... For them to be DEFENSELESS, because, knowing God, not as God do they glorify or thank Him ..." (Rom. 1:21).

Notice John 3:1: " ... We [the Pharisees responsible for Christ’s crucifixion] KNOW that thou art a teacher come from God ... "

So, yes, they knew Christ came from God, but they didn’t really comprehend what they were doing when they killed Him. Jesus forgave and asked His Father to forgive the very ones responsible for His crucifixion. And our Lord did this completely gratuitously without even asking them for their defense, or their permission. Your theology, Dr. Kennedy, does not portray the true God of the Scriptures.

Dr. Kennedy, Paul didn’t use or even try to use an "ignorance defense." Neither did Christ’s murderers use an "ignorance defense." We are all "defenseless." We are all "sinners." That’s why our Lord Jesus Christ died for us (not in our "place or stead" as you suggest, but rather "FOR" us -- giant different). Christ’s sacrifice paid the penalty for ALL sin. We don’t need a "defense" or a "defense attorney:" We have Jesus Christ, the Savior of the whole world, and especially believers, now (I Tim.4:10). ----------------

This is a pebble ballot, cast in secret ("The Lord knows them that are His," even if the world doesn’t), to pronounce an acquittal. Acquittal means a judgment of NOT GUILTY! If we are truly, SPIRITUALLY, BAPTIZED into Christ’s death, then we are "…JUSTIFIED from Sin" (Rom. 6:3-7).

And "Freely JUSTIFIED in His grace…" (Rom. 3:24). Justify means, "to declare free of blame; absolve. Theology To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin," The American Heritage College dictionary. That’s ACQUITTAL! Whom ever possesses this white pebble is ACQUITTED OF ALL SINS AND ALL GUILT!

This pebble also signified "admission." An "admission’ is both the permission to enter something, and the price paid for the admission or entrance. Again, Jesus Christ is BOTH! Jesus Christ paid the ultimate penalty for our sins,

"But God commended His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, CHRIST DIED FOR US. Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED by His blood, we shall be SAVED from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).

And we can only gain admission and entrance into the kingdom of God through Him. Jesus said, "I am the DOOR…" (John 10:7 & 9), and there is no other. Jesus said to, "Enter ye in at the strait [narrow and cramped] gate…" (Matt. 7:13), and Jesus is the "door" of that gate.

And so this apparently, insignificant little white pebble takes on enormous spiritual value. Our pebble is "white," signifying the purity of both the Giver (Jesus) and the recipient (the overcomer). It is like a spiritual ticket that proves the bearer has been washed clean, forgiven, justified, acquitted of all guilt, and has a paid admission into the Kingdom of God, which Jesus verifies and signifies by His Own written Name! But it is not a literal white pebble with a literal name engraved in it—IT IS A SYMBOL of all of the SPIRITUAL benefits attached to being an "overcomer IN Christ."

"A new name written, which no man knows except he that receives it." [That’s CHRIST, Who] "…had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself … and His name is called The Word of God" (Rev. 19:12-13).,6719.0.html --------------

2 Peter 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Now I’ve read that Scripture a hundred times, quoted it a hundred, thought about it a hundred.  But never bringing to bear the words “bought them” in connection with damnable heresy.  Notice it, because I’m going to bring it in today.  

“Even denying the Lord that bought them.”  What does that mean?  Ransom -  redeeming.  Jesus Christ redeems us!  
It’s like if you pawn your ring at the pawn store, you can redeem it, but you got to pay for it.  You can’t say, ‘you know I pawned my ring here last month and I want it back.’  If you don’t have any money, you won’t get it back.  If you want to redeem that ring, you’ve got to pay the money, you’ve got to pay for the redemption.

Jesus Christ is our Redeemer!   Notice it He “bought them.”  You know He paid something.   “Denying the Lord that bought them,” because this kind of evil dirty religion, saying that Jesus Christ was made sin denies that Jesus bought us!  It absolutely does.  According to Jesus Christ being made sin, then He had to pay for His own sin.  If He was sin, He needed to go to the cross and to be killed to pay for His own sin.  Where do you read such damnable heresy, that Jesus went to the cross to pay for His own sin?  He paid for OUR sin, He bought US.  We are bought and paid for.
1 Cor. 5:7  Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

Christ is our Passover.  The Passover lamb was an offering, it was a sacrifice, it was not ‘the’ sin of Israel.  Do you follow?   It was a offering - a sacrifice.  Jesus Christ is that sacrifice, He is that Passover, it says so.  Now was that Passover lamb ‘the’ sin or was it just a sacrifice ‘for’ sin?  Well we know the answer to that.
Num 9:13  … forbear to keep the Passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season…

So when we come down to verse 7 and 8 of Luke 22, are we suppose to believe that they killed the ‘Passover feast’ and made ready to eat the ‘Passover feast,’ or is it not understood that they were to kill the ‘Passover offering’ and eat the ‘Passover offering’?

Luke 22:7  Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the Passover must be killed.
v. 8  And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the Passover, that we may eat.

What was the offering?   The Passover.  What was the Passover?  A lamb.  Who was Jesus Christ?  He is the Lamb of God, He is the Passover sacrifice for us, Paul said so.  That Passover is called an offering.  So if Jesus Christ was the Lamb of God and represented the Passover, was He not a sin offering or was He not?  This is not hard.  You’ve got to be a spiritual dunce to not be able to see this.  Excuse me, did you hear what I said?  Christ is the Lamb of God.  What did they sacrifice?  They sacrificed a lamb.  Christ is the Lamb of God.  Paul said Christ, our Passover is sacrificed for us.  Christ is the Lamb, Christ is the Passover, what is the Passover called?  In Numbers 9:13 it says “the offering”!  Got it?  Don’t ever forget it.

mercy, peace and love



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Re: vicarious atonement
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 06:25:29 PM »

Thanks very much. I knew I had seen something about this in Ray's work.
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