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How are we heaven?
claypot:
Ray said:
Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.
To me, Scripture backs Ray up perfectly when it says:
....the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. romans 8.7
cp
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: claypot on March 24, 2010, 01:54:44 PM ---Ray said:
Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.
To me, Scripture backs Ray up perfectly when it says:
....the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. romans 8.7
cp
--- End quote ---
No Claypot, Ray does not teach that Satan is our carnal mind.
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1707.msg14346.html#msg14346):
Dear Azaleen:
So then you really do believe that the "carnal mind" of all humanity will be chained for a thousand years (Rev. 20:2)? and that Paul turned over the carnal mind to be destroyed of the carnal mind (I Cor. 5:5)? What I would like you to share with me your Scriptural answer to these two Scriptures? Your theory that "Satan is the carnal mind" does not quite fit all Scriptures, does it?
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6300.msg50839.html#msg50839):
Dear Mark: Was it "the carnal mind" that presented itself to God in the opening chapters of Job? Did Jesus tells HIS OWN "CARNAL MIND" to "get behind Me, SATAN?" (Luke 4:8 )? Did Jesus have a "carnal mind?" A "satan" within Him? Is God going to chain the "carnal mind" in the abyss for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-2)? Is He then going to release the "carnal mind" for a little season?
I await your reply.
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,75.msg242.html#msg242):
Dear Timothy:
You believe what you believe because you do not believe the Scriptures.
Was Jesus really tempted by His "fallen carnal mind--His evil nature?" Was Jesus referring to"His own carnal nature" that Jesus said, "Get thee behind Me, Satan?" Was Jesus' "carnal evil nature," "enmity against God?" Did Jesus really HATE HIS OWN FATHER? It's an "idol of your heart," Timothy, give up.
Ray
What Ray does teach of this belief of Satan representing the carnal mind is that it is an IDOL OF THE HEART.
Marques
claypot:
This is from Ray’s writings in the LOF series #9….
http://www.bible-truths.com/lake9.html
Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.
"And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the EARTH [of man] and the HEAVEN [of man] fled away; and there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM… And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Rev. 20:11, 16 & 21:1).
It would be mind-boggling enough to think that the entire UNIVERSE could "flee away," but it would be quite another to then suggest that, "there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM." That would be absurd if taken literally. ALL THESE THINGS ARE SPIRITUAL! In the white throne judgment there will be no more a place for the flesh, for the carnal mind, for man’s heaven. There will truly be no place found for them. They will be annihilated in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29 & I Cor. 3:15)!
God will give man a new earth and a new heaven, and as for the great sea of carnal, God-defying humanity, "…and there was NO MORE SEA."
I hear ya Marq. Ray does not directly say the serpent is the carnal mind. He does say carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time
Like I said, Ray puts it better than I. He associates carnality so closely with the carnal mind as to make them one in a spiritual sense. Carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time, wow!
Jesus never had a carnal mind but He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. So was this ‘devil’ Jesus’ carnal mind? No. Jesus never had a carnal mind. That doesn’t mean, in a spiritual way, the spirit of carnality wasn’t always trying to get within Him, His mind. Jesus never allowed this to happen. I believe, and I will look for it in Ray’s writings, that Jesus had thoughts come to Him of the nature we read about in His wilderness temptation but they never got in Jesus. Kind of like when Jesus cried out on the cross something like My God why have you forsaken me. I don’t believe God forsook Jesus yet a darkness of sorts covered Jesus’ ‘mind’ for a time and He thought God forsook Him.
Off to search Ray’s writings for his backing in what I am saying.
cp
claypot:
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1707.msg14346.html#msg14346):
Dear Azaleen:
So then you really do believe that the "carnal mind" of all humanity will be chained for a thousand years (Rev. 20:2)? and that Paul turned over the carnal mind to be destroyed of the carnal mind (I Cor. 5:5)? What I would like you to share with me your Scriptural answer to these two Scriptures? Your theory that "Satan is the carnal mind" does not quite fit all Scriptures, does it?
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6300.msg50839.html#msg50839):
Dear Mark: Was it "the carnal mind" that presented itself to God in the opening chapters of Job? Did Jesus tells HIS OWN "CARNAL MIND" to "get behind Me, SATAN?" (Luke 4:8 )? Did Jesus have a "carnal mind?" A "satan" within Him? Is God going to chain the "carnal mind" in the abyss for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-2)? Is He then going to release the "carnal mind" for a little season?
I await your reply.
God be with you,
Ray
With the greatest respect for Ray I just want to suggest a few things about the verses he brings up here.
Rev20.1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Spiritually the Scriptures are written as Ray always says. They have spiritual meaning primarily.
Rev 20 here says to me that the carnal mind of man will be enslaved by a higher divine presence (our very own Lord, Jesus Christ) for a time. To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. eccl 3.1
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1cor5.5
Here in Corinthians Paul is speaking in a spiritual sense also. In the presence of Jesus Christ and His power give a person fully over to his carnal mindset (flesh) and see where it leads. It will lead to utter destruction of carnality and leave only the ‘spirit’ in it’s place. Carnal living carried out to it’s logical end will be destruction. It is ‘eternal’ destruction at it’s finest.
In the opening chapters of Job it was the very real presence of the carnal nature that was present before God. This is also primarily spiritual dialog as is all of Scripture as Ray himself says so often. The Word of God is spiritual. God uses human terms to reveal spiritual truths.
Just thinking out and asking God to guide.
I commented on Jesus and the carnal mind in previous post.
cp
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: claypot on March 24, 2010, 02:36:39 PM ---I hear ya Marq. Ray does not directly say the serpent is the carnal mind. He does say carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time
Like I said, Ray puts it better than I. He associates carnality so closely with the carnal mind as to make them one in a spiritual sense. Carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time, wow!
--- End quote ---
And neither does he teach it INDIRECTLY. I don't understand how the statement 'It's an idol of the heart, give it up' can be turned into 'he does not say it directly...but puts it better than I'.
--- Quote from: claypot on March 24, 2010, 02:36:39 PM ---Jesus never had a carnal mind but He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. So was this ‘devil’ Jesus’ carnal mind? No. Jesus never had a carnal mind. That doesn’t mean, in a spiritual way, the spirit of carnality wasn’t always trying to get within Him, His mind.
--- End quote ---
WHAT???? Do you make this stuff up as you go along?
--- Quote from: claypot on March 24, 2010, 02:36:39 PM --- Jesus never allowed this to happen. I believe, and I will look for it in Ray’s writings, that Jesus had thoughts come to Him of the nature we read about in His wilderness temptation but they never got in Jesus.
--- End quote ---
Where is it written that a temptation 'goes in' to a person? How is a person's thoughts NOT in them?
--- Quote from: claypot on March 24, 2010, 02:36:39 PM --- Kind of like when Jesus cried out on the cross something like My God why have you forsaken me. I don’t believe God forsook Jesus yet a darkness of sorts covered Jesus’ ‘mind’ for a time and He thought God forsook Him.
Off to search Ray’s writings for his backing in what I am saying.
cp
--- End quote ---
What is a darkness of sorts? How/When is it ever 'sort' of dark?
CP, I've heard some whoppers in my time on the forum but I promise this takes the cake.
In all seriousness, these attempts to bring outside teachings are against forum rules. You've been shown ample material from Ray but yet you attempt to talk around it. No more...you can disagree until the cows come home, but the forum is not the outlet for you to teach otherwise.
Thanks,
Marques
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