Repentance

[Yab Yum]

Hi all.

A little unclear on Ray's view of repentance and free will. If i need to repent but there is no free will, what am I repenting of?

If God "set up" the Fall to inevitably occur, then that would be like me saying that I am repenting of watching the first 10 minutes of a movie.

Does this make sense?

[mharrell08]

Hi all.

A little unclear on Ray's view of repentance and free will. If i need to repent but there is no free will, what am I repenting of?

If God "set up" the Fall to inevitably occur, then that would be like me saying that I am repenting of watching the first 10 minutes of a movie.

Does this make sense?

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-D4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):

REPENTANCE: "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32). Strong's #3341 metanoia--"compunction (for guilt), reversal." Metanoia (the noun) is from #3340, metanoeo (the verb), which means: "to perceive afterwards, implying change... the mind, the seat of moral reflection... hence signifies to change one's mind or purpose" (Vines Concise Dictionary of Bible Words.)

The very first word to humanity out of Jesus' mouth after being tempted by Satan in the wilderness was "repent..." (Matt. 4:17). And what does "repent" mean? It means to change. And what have I been teaching since we started bible-truths.com? That God is changing physical, carnal humanity into the spiritual Image of God. That's what our existence is all about. This is the purpose for humanity. This is the next goal in the plan of God. To make carnal, physical humanity into the Spiritual Image of God. It's all about change. God is going to change the entire human race. And once you understand this first word "repentance," you will understand the other spiritual and pious sounding words of Scripture. They all involve change-changing from what we are into what God is.

This word repentance sets the stage for all other commandments and admonitions regarding a change from what we are to what we should and MUST BE.

We are to turn from our carnal human nature and sin, to God's spiritual love and righteousness.

It is God Who will change us from what we are to what He is.

God is creating humanity into the very Spiritual Image of Himself (that is what it's all about).

This is the enigma of the Scriptures.

This is the great parable of the Bible.

This is the purpose for creation.

This is the destiny of mankind.

This is God's master purpose.

This will be God's greatest accomplishment.

This will be the Crowning Masterpiece of God's eternal wisdom, power, and love.

God is calling you and me to this awesome journey!

The Lord is leading everyone to repent (or change) from their carnality to the image of God. We all are sinners, we all were created such (there was no 'fall'), and the goodness of God is leading us to repent of all the carnality, sin, & death in our mortal bodies (Rom 2:4).

Free will is a myth and has nothing to do with whether or not one should/can repent. It is always the goodness of God that leads to repentance (Rom 2:4).


Hope this helps,

Marques

[claypot]

I like that Marq.

I think Yab is thinking like many of us do when thinking of repenting. We think we are repenting from something we initially did wrong. But God is just saying to us to change from what we are. It's like when God says to let there be light. Light appears. God looks at us and says 'Repent' and what do you think we will do? Yes. Repent. His word does not return until it accomplishes all it sets out to do.

cp

[Marky Mark]

A little unclear on Ray's view of repentance and free will. If i need to repent but there is no free will, what am I repenting of?

When we come to a point in our lives when the Spirit begins to move and to do what works need to be done in our hearts to initiate change,you'll know. When one comes to an understanding that we of ourselves can accomplish nothing and that all is of God,well,that is a very humbling experience. That is the point when I can no longer justify my sins and now God needs to step in and make me want to  repent of the things that make me sin.

With all of the trails that mankind has to experience in the flesh,to me it means the humility involved in trying to overcome such humbling experiences is one of the primary ways, the Lord uses, to get His desired results, so that we can see the beast in us all, and come to a recognition of ones inner self[heart and mind] that without the pure Love of the Father we could never come to an understanding of what obeying the Lord by choice really means. We have to make the right choices in life so The Spirit can come into us and initiate and uphold His Truth.


2Pe 1:3 So has all of His divine power, that tends to life and devoutness, been presented to us through the recognition of Him Who calls us to His own glory and virtue;"

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore, rather, brethren, endeavor through ideal acts to confirm your calling and choice; for, doing these things you should under no circumstances be tripping at any time. "



Peace...Mark

[Deborah-Leigh]

..................... what am I repenting of?

Hello Yab Yum

Welcome to the Forum.

If you understand what "repent" means, then perhaps you would better be able to answer your own question. 

Ray expounds in his REPENTANCE Bible Study the following:

Repent means to turn around, to go the other way.  Whatever you are doing that's wrong and sinful and evil and carnal and worldly and everything else, you turn around, you "repent" and you go the other direction.  The scriptures mention a couple of words:

Matthew 18:3 talks about being converted
Matthew 19:28 talks about being regenerated
1Peter 1:3 talks about being born again
John 3:3 talks about being born again

What are all those things?  They're all one and the same, there's no difference.  Being begotten anew, being born again, being regenerated, being converted...they are all the same.  And this is what we all want to do, so that we can take on more knowledge and live more Godly, and reach this goal.  We all sin. 

Arc

[Roy Coates]

Hi all.

A little unclear on Ray's view of repentance and free will. If i need to repent but there is no free will, what am I repenting of?

If God "set up" the Fall to inevitably occur, then that would be like me saying that I am repenting of watching the first 10 minutes of a movie.

Does this make sense?

You need to repent of who and what you are, carnal. Another Rays studies on repentance&guilty of all
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html (transcript-both)

http://bible-truths.com/audio/Ray_Repent%201.mp3 (audio repentance)

this one answers "what am I repenting of"
http://bible-truths.com/audio/N05%20Guilty_of_ALL.mp3 (audio guilty of all)

[Yab Yum]

Thanks all.

If i was compelled to sin in teh first place why does God case us to "repent" instead of, say, "become realized"?

I'm still unclear but I'll try to understand.

[Kat]

Hi Yab Yum,

The thing is we all need this experience of life, both good and bad, to LEARN from it. The physical experience must come first, this "experience of evil."

1Co 15:46  But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)

In this learning process that all humans must go through the end results will be that God will bring all of us into His image, "then the spiritual," the few now the many later. Here is an email that explains this more.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm -------

If God would save everyone, because that's His will, then what's the point of all this. I mean with what I have read I get the impression we are just here for ... I don't know ?

Why would God, who needs nothing and is self sufficient, create us, the human race, who He knows are going to do the things we do, then save us all for eternity? Why wouldn't He just make us for what He purposed in the end. I don't know if this makes sense?

Charles

[Ray Replies]

Dear Charles:

Of course your question makes sense--it is an excellent question. Too bad that the Christian Church does not answer it.

God is SPIRIT. God is interested ONLY in spiritual things. All this physical creation is not something that God takes great pleasure in--it is but a means to an end. Well, what does He want then? He wants CHILDREN! SPIRITUAL Sons and Daughters in HIS VERY IMAGE!

But, how does He get them? Create them? Yes, CREATE them. But how does He create them. Instantly? No. To be in the IMAGE of God means that we will have the very same CHARACTER AND LOVE of God. Character and Love cannot be created instantly; it can only be developed over a period of time under severe pressure and duress.  And so God creates severe pressure and duress, which produces GODLY CHARACTER.  Imagine creating "patience," INSTANTLY?  Why the very thought is self-contradicting. Patience by its very nature means that something must be WAITED FOR even though it is desired NOW.

God knows what He is doing. Now then, there is a second part to all this. We ourselves would never ever really appreciate the qualities of character, virtue, and love, that we will possess if we did not have to "sweat blood" to get them. There is no virtue that you can name that is not the result of overcoming some form of evil.  And so this physical, human, temporal existence is as beneficial for US, and it is to GOD.

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

[Yab Yum]

V interesting.

[onelovedread]

I think this email from Ray dealing with why we're here, addresses repentance in an indirect way:


[Ray replies]

I am sorry that I don't know your name, but thank you for you interest and your email.

Christianity does not give you a straight answer because the doctrines of Christianity contradict most of the truths of God's Word.

There are answers, however.

I will give you some of the reason "why we are here."

1)  great and wise creator GOD PUT US HERE. He started the human family.

2) God is not stupid, He had a grand and eternal purpose in mind for making mankind.

3) God has many attributes, powers, knowledge, etc., that obviously mankind DOES NOT. But, God DOES WANT us to have those same attributes, especially LOVE!

4) Qualities of character such as Love are not instantaneously created, they must be developed. That development takes a creation, circumstances, and time. And so, God creates all these things necessary for their development.

5) Although God is GOOD, He nonetheless has a knowledge and understanding of both good AND EVIL. And so we TOO much come to an understanding of both good and evil. Why? Because ALL KNOWLEDGE hinges on their proper understanding.

People say things without ever realizing how stupid or impossible their thoughts or statements are. Most Christians suppose that if Adam and Eve had not sinned, then we all would STILL, right now, be enjoying the beautiful life of happiness and bliss in a fabulous garden of Eden. NOT SO!!! Adam and Eve did  NOT appreciate what they had with God in the garden before they sinned. They had NO CONTRAST to compare it with.

Now here is a key piece of understanding and wisdom. God wants CHILDREN. God is building a FAMILY. Children are to grow up and have the attributes of their parents. But these things must be LEARNED BY EXPERIENCE!  Not only didn't Adam and Eve appreciate what they had, they ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT have appreciated what they had, because they experienced ONLY GOOD.

Try to come up with even ONE VIRTUE, such as love, patience, honesty, goodness, faithfulness, loyalty, obedience, bravery, etc., etc., etc., ANYTHING of a virtuous nature, that does not involve the overcoming of SOME FORM OF EVIL! There is you answer! There IS NO VIRTUE, NO CHARACTER, NO STABILITY of any kind in any one, except he overcomes some form of EVIL.

Now can you see why we are here? Now can you see why there is not only good, but so much evil in the world? It is necessary! God did not put it here simply to make us miserable! God is NOT in a battle for supremacy with Satan. God CREATED Satan. God USES Satan. And Satan too, will be saved after he has done all of his dirty work. God will make him repent.

6) God is enlarging His family into BILLIONS of sons and daughters.  This life is part of the training ground to be the very SONS OF GOD.

All evil including DEATH itself will be abolished when God has used them to bring His family to a level of love and righteousness that He desires. We will then inherit all that God has and all that God is. God is truly OUR FATHER.

I hope that helps your understanding a little better. Life will not always be miserable and painful as it may seem to you now. This too shall pass.

Sincerely,

Ray

I hope it helps in some way.
Onelovedread

[Yab Yum]

So evil is not really evil?

[Kat]

Hi yab Yum,

Here are a couple of excerpts that will help you understand how God uses evil for good.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm ----------

GOD CREATES AND USES EVIL FOR GOOD

Far too many theologians misrepresent the Word of God, and therefore pervert it to suit their unscriptural biases. I have heard of theologians who graduated from seminary and still did not know that God says in Isaiah 45:7: "I ... create EVIL." And most who have read it, don't believe it.

Evil has no moral bias. God does not sin when He uses evil for His good purposes. Men sin when they do evil to other men. Evil [Heb. ha' = TO SMASH] is only a "sin" when it is used wrongly. God uses evil for good. The glorious culmination of God's plan will justify His use of evil a trillion times to the power of infinity! Notice how often God uses evil in the Scriptures:

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (Isa. 45:7).

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" (Lam 3:38).

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13).

" ... I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives..." (II Sam. 12:11).

"That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:19-25).

" ... I have created the waster to destroy." (Isa. 54:16).

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov. 16:4).

" ... I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction." (Jer. 4:6).

" ... Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people ... " (Jer. 6:19).

"And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." " ... And He [God] said, ... go forth, and do so." (I Kg. 22:22).

"He [God] turned their heart to hate his people ... " (Psa. 105:25).

" ... Thus said the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you ... " (Jer. 18:11).

" ... For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Rom. 11:32).

"O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).

" ... so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land ... " (Josh. 23:15).

" ... shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Am. 3:6).

"For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging ever son to whom He is assenting" (Heb. 12:5).

"By His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the Crooked serpent" (Job 26:14). "And the great dragon was cast out, the Ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan ... " (Rev. 12:9).

"Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (I Jn 3:08).

"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." (Job 2:10, see 42:7).

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek ... destroy ... slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ... " (I Sam. 15:2-3).

" ... God will be sending them an operation of deception for them to believe the falsehood ... " (II The. 2:11-12).

Scripture proves that God not only created evil, but that He, Himself, is responsible for it.

Maybe these aren't Sunday School verses, but they are Scripture. These are strong verses. At times it is hard to emotionally deal with the evils of this world. But I thank God that it is HE and not Satan or man who controls evil. It is important to understand that God puts limitations on evil. He doesn't use it indiscriminately. Jeremiah 18:11 says: " ... I frame evil against you ... " This verse alone shows the boundaries and limitations that God Himself puts on evil.

GOD IS NOT EVIL

We can accomplish no good of ourselves. What we are to learn is contained in the next passage: "Be not deceived [but of course, most people are deceived], my beloved brethren! ALL GOOD giving and EVERY perfect gratuity is from above, descending from the FATHER of lights ... " (Jas. 1:16). That is the lesson we, not God, are to learn and our trials are a great aid in understanding God's goodness.


http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html ------------

LEMONS TO LEMONADE?

Many Christian teachers and theologians like to look at examples such as this one with Joseph and conclude that God merely turns the lemons of Joseph's brothers into lemonade. That is totally untrue and unscriptural. Was the selling of Joseph into Egypt as a slave (their lemons), that God then used to preserve life (His lemonade)? Is that what took place here? God used their lemons to make His lemonade? Absolutely not.

It was GOD who made these "lemons" in the first place—"GOD DID SEND ME...," and it was also God Who turned those lemons into lemonade, "...TO PRESERVE LIFE" (Gen. 45:5b). Or as Gen. 50:20 states:

"But as for you, ye thought evil [lemons] against me: but God meant it for good [LEMONADE], to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Joseph and his brothers is a parable for the whole plan of God, to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear:

God made the lemons and God changed the lemons into lemonade.

God is the Potter and we are the clay. God first made the clay in His hands "marred/ruined"—LEMONS, before "...He made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it"—LEMONADE (Jer. 18:4).

Therefore, "For as in Adam ALL DIE [the marred, ruined clay—lemons] even so in Christ shall ALL [it's the same 'all' as 'in Adam'—it's the SAME CLAY {Adam means 'clay'}--lemons] BE MADE ALIVE ['another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it'—LEMONADE]."

It is God Who makes both the lemons and the lemonade. God is in control of His creation from beginning to end:

"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will [God's will is still a mystery to the world of Christendom], according to His good pleasure ['For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'—Phil. 2:13] which He has purposed in Himself [not in man's fabled 'free will']: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE, ALL things in Christ, both which are IN HEAVEN, and which are ON EARTH [that's ALL the heavenly host and ALL humanity that has ever lived]; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance [in this age and this lifetime, ahead of the rest which must go through judgment first], being predestined according to the purpose of Him [not by the 'maybe yes/maybe no' uncertain shaky possibility of man's supposed free will] Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9-11).

It is GOD Who does the working of the clay. The clay does not determine its own destiny, that is the POTTER'S job:

"Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [we, the clay] say to Him that formed it [God, the Potter], Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter power over the clay [and the clay's powerless imagined 'free will'], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour [lemonade], and another unto dishonour [lemons]" (Rom. 9:20-21).

If the evil deed of selling Joseph into slavery was the "lemons," then it was GOD who made them lemons. Well doesn't that then make God the evil One? No, no it doesn't. Here is why. It all has to do with the intent of the heart.

From the intentions of the heart of Joseph's brothers, the deed to sell Joseph into slavery down in Egypt was EVIL. But from the intention of the heart of GOD, the deed was one of great benevolence and righteousness! And the Scriptures actually say so in just so many words, when Joseph's brothers did indeed bow down to him:

"And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. And Joseph said unto them, Fear not, for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Gen. 50:18-20).

You won't find many statements in Scripture more profound than this one. "...you thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD..." This is absolutely not a case of turning the lemons of men into the lemonade of God. It was GOD who made both the lemons and the lemonade. Why was this act a sin and an evil on the part of Joseph's brothers? Because they "thought EVIL" against Joseph. And why was it NOT a sin or an evil when God takes credit for this act? Because "GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD." No, contrary to those who hate God's ways, God is not evil, nor does He ever sin through all His dealings with evil on behalf of mankind's good and eternal welfare.

One final point, just in case you didn't catch it: Nowhere in any of these statements of Scripture do we see God "changing" the original evil of men into something good. No, not at all: for it was God, Himself Who is responsible for both the original act of evil and the final consummation of blessing.

Joseph plainly states that "God meant it unto good." The "it" was the evil act of Joseph's brothers. God did not change "it" unto good. No, God meant for the "it" to take place—"it" was His doing. But God's motivation for the "it" was for good and not evil as Joseph's brothers intended. So God brought about the "it" by the dream that He caused Joseph to have. And it was God's intention from the very conception of the "it" (the dirty deed) to be used for good!

And this IS how God operates. Not just with Joseph and his brothers, but with all humanity in all ages. "God is no respecter of persons," and "God changes not."
---------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

So evil is not really evil?

Knowledge of both good and evil is an attribute of God Himself.
"Evil" is not good nor is it eternal.
...a knowledge of evil is good and is eternal....just as sure our God Who possesses a knowledge of evil, is eternal.   L Ray Smith  EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE LOF Vl

Arc

[soberxp]

So evil is not really evil?

so evil is some kind of debug program:D

[Joel]

Our lives are the sum of the experiences we have, good, and evil.
The word evil spelled backwards is live.
Those that are forgiven much, love much. see Luke 7:47.
A SHIP IS SAFE IN THE HARBOR, BUT THAT IS NOT WHY SHIPS ARE MADE.
In the end we will all fall down, and worship God, who has done all these great things to HIS Glory. And give honor to Jesus the Christ who died for our sins.
Isaiah, 53:6- ALL we like sheep have gone astray;--
REPENTANCE, as Ray said, is indeed turning around and going in the opposite direction.
Joel

[Dave in Tenn]

It's good to remember in using and defining the word 'evil' that there is no moral component to it.  SIN and EVIL are not synonyms.  Certainly sin is (an) evil, but evil is not always (a) sin.  Affliction and sorrow are evils, for example, and experienced by the Lord Jesus--Who is without sin.

These words might be good for Samson to add to his 'definitions' thread--especially as Ray has defined them (as they ought to be) by their un-contradictory usage in Scripture.  I can't find the quote, but I know it's in here somewhere.