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Author Topic: Parable of the Nobleman?  (Read 5911 times)

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Lupac

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Parable of the Nobleman?
« on: March 26, 2010, 12:18:58 AM »

Hey, I was wondering what the meaning behind the parable in Luke 19:12-27 is. I'll put it down here:

Quote
Luke 19:12  He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luke 19:13  And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luke 19:14  But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Luke 19:15  And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Luke 19:16  Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luke 19:17  And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luke 19:18  And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luke 19:19  And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
Luke 19:20  And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
Luke 19:21  For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
Luke 19:22  And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Luke 19:23  Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
Luke 19:24  And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
Luke 19:25  (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luke 19:26  For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Luke 19:27  But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

The nobleman is Jesus, but what about the rest? What is this parable saying? Thanks.

EDIT: Is Jesus even the nobleman? I'm not sure...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 01:29:47 AM by Lupac »
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judith collier

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2010, 06:36:53 AM »

Hi lupac, I don't see Jesus as the nobleman, but rather Jesus is like the nobleman and we are the servants. And I don't think it is about money either but our gifts and talents God has given us. We are to use them, each as much as is given to him. We aren't to bury or let them lie dormant. If I am mistaken fine but this is how I have always understood it. I am sure many who are more versed tham myself will answer also. Judy
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claypot

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2010, 10:37:04 AM »

Hey, I was wondering what the meaning behind the parable in Luke 19:12-27 is. I'll put it down here:

Quote
Luke 19:12  He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luke 19:13  And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luke 19:14  But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Luke 19:15  And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Luke 19:16  Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luke 19:17  And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luke 19:18  And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luke 19:19  And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
Luke 19:20  And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
Luke 19:21  For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
Luke 19:22  And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Luke 19:23  Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
Luke 19:24  And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
Luke 19:25  (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luke 19:26  For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Luke 19:27  But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

The nobleman is Jesus, but what about the rest? What is this parable saying? Thanks.

EDIT: Is Jesus even the nobleman? I'm not sure...

Does Ray teach anywhere on this parable? I am especially stumped on the part:

 Luke 19:21  For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
Luke 19:22  And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

I always think of God as reaping what He sows and Jesus as laying down His life and taking it up again.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I  lay   down  my life, that I might  take  it again.  18  No man taketh it from me, but I  lay  it  down  of myself. I have power to  lay  it  down , and I have power to  take  it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.jn10.17

cp




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mharrell08

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2010, 10:56:40 AM »

Hey, I was wondering what the meaning behind the parable in Luke 19:12-27 is.


Excerpts from Foundation Truths bible study (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.0.html):

PRINCIPLE TO ALL THE PARABLES

Now I want to zero in on a principle here that will help us understand a whole lot more than we think we do.  But when you get all bogged down with thisÖ so much knowledge and so many pages to learn, youíve got to come back to this principle.  You can grow from there, but come back to this foundation.  Because thatís where you are building, you are building on the foundation.  So how many parables must we know in order to know all parables?  Christ said in Mark 4.

Mark 4:13  And He said unto them, Know ye not THIS parable?  (or do you understand the meaning of this parable, obviously they did not, because they ask Him what does it mean) and how then will ye know all parables?


There is a real key teaching.  If you donít understand this parable, He says how can you understand the rest of them?  But on the other hand, if you do understand this parable you can understand the rest of them.  You only need to understand one really well and you know them all.

--------------------
Now He is going to explain it, He said becauseÖ

Mark 4:11  ÖUnto YOU it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
 
Well wait a minute we have just learned something all over there again.  What are the parables about?  The called and the chosen, the many and the few.  Now what did He say there?  He just told us that, did you get it or did you just read over it and you missed it?  Read it again.  How many times have you read that and you missed it.  YOU are the few chosen, YOU will understand these things.  "Without" I teach in parables, the many hear Me, but THEY donít get it.

Mark 4:12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;

So there is your two groups.  This is not talking about the same person being split down the middle or something.  This is talking about the called and the chosen. 

--------------------
So there are two different groups throughout the parables.  You have the new wine and the old wine skins.  The sower that we just went through with the sower.  You have the tares and the wheat.  The tares and the wheat are growing together, but they are not the same.  Because those that are the tares will be thrown into fire.  You can not be gathered into the barn and thrown into the fire at the same time.  People will not be in the kingdom of God and in the fire at the same time.  There comes a part where you separate these two and that happens at resurrection.  Those that enter the kingdom and those that are without and are going to be judged. 

Sometimes a parable will emphasize the Elect, sometimes it puts emphasis on the many.  But the opposite is always in view.   They talk about the bad, but that doesnít negate the fact that this is the opposite of those that are good.



Email reply from Ray (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,166.0.html):

Dear Wes:

My statement that all parables are the same parable is not based on one verse. That one verse is merely a signpost to that conclusion. If you look at every single parable individually, it is speaking of the same thing. One day I will go through many of them so that you will see this fact. There are many more parables than those listed by theologians as parables. The whole of Christ's teachings is one giant parable.  I have even gone so far as to say that the entire Bible is one giant PARALBE, first stated in parabolic form in Gen. 1.

God be with you,

Ray



Also, just because the wicked servant called his master 'austere' [Gk. 'harsh; rigid'] does not make it true. His master says in the next verse that the servant's very words would be his judgment. The master goes along with his statement and states that if the servant believed he was so harsh, the servant could have simply allowed his talent to gain interest in the bank [v23]. The Master used the very words of the servant as judgment against him.

Matt 12:36  I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

As Ray points out, every parable is about the called and the chosen. In each parable that uses a person or group of people, those who DO the will of God represent the Chosen. Those who DO NOT represent the Called.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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claypot

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2010, 11:17:27 AM »

It does help, me anyway, Marq. Thanks.

So are you saying the parable here is God communicating to us that the chosen will get rewarded and the called will get punished in some manner?

I like your take on how the nobleman was maybe not austere. Thought provoking.

cp
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claypot

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 11:23:19 AM »

Email reply from Ray (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,166.0.html):

Dear Wes:

My statement that all parables are the same parable is not based on one verse. That one verse is merely a signpost to that conclusion. If you look at every single parable individually, it is speaking of the same thing. One day I will go through many of them so that you will see this fact. There are many more parables than those listed by theologians as parables. The whole of Christ's teachings is one giant parable.  I have even gone so far as to say that the entire Bible is one giant PARALBE, first stated in parabolic form in Gen. 1.

God be with you,

Ray


I so agree with Ray here about the whole of Christ's teachings being one giant parable AND where Ray says the the entire Bible, starting with Genesis (Adam, Eve and Serpent and so on) is parabolic. Amaazing insight IMO.

cp
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Arion

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 11:29:30 AM »

Yep, the parables are all one and the same....just from a little different perspective each time.  This was one of the greatest truths that I have learned through the teachings here.  Each and every one is about the few and the many, the called and the chosen. 
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claypot

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 12:59:05 PM »

Many are called and few chosen.

In this parable I see the opposite. I see 2 chosen and 1 'called' or rejected. Exponentially this would work out to many chosen and few called. Any writings of Ray's on this particular aspect?

Am I missing something here?

I do agree with Ray that all the parables have the same goal.

cp
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Lupac

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2010, 01:16:09 PM »

All 10 of the servants are the "chosen", the citizens are the many called, I think. What about Luke 19:27? What does the "slaying" symbolize? (I'm guessing God's judgments, right?)
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mharrell08

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2010, 01:24:07 PM »

Many are called and few chosen.

In this parable I see the opposite. I see 2 chosen and 1 'called' or rejected. Exponentially this would work out to many chosen and few called. Any writings of Ray's on this particular aspect?

Am I missing something here?

No, Ray does not teach that it is many chosen and few called. The scriptures state:

Matt 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matt 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.


Just because the ratio in this parable was 2 chosen vs. 1 called, does not mean that is the absolute ratio for all mankind. The Lord is not teaching ratios, He is teaching what it is to DO the Will of God.


All 10 of the servants are the "chosen", the citizens are the many called, I think. What about Luke 19:27? What does the "slaying" symbolize? (I'm guessing God's judgments, right?)

No, all 10 servants are not chosen seeing how one was wicked and disobedient.

Slaying, judgment, dying to the flesh, mortifying the deeds of the body, etc...yes that would seem to fit.


Marques
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claypot

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2010, 01:29:59 PM »


All 10 of the servants are the "chosen", the citizens are the many called, I think. What about Luke 19:27?
I wonder why we only have revealed what happened to 3 of the servants? How did the other 7 do? We know 1 out of 3 did bad, 2 did good.


What does the "slaying" symbolize? (I'm guessing God's judgments, right?)
Hi Lupac, I had a question about that part too. Seems like the Spirit is keeping us on the same page here.

My question is, is the killing of all that is lazy and opposes God a good and needful thing?

cp
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claypot

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2010, 01:40:38 PM »

 
Many are called and few chosen.

In this parable I see the opposite. I see 2 chosen and 1 'called' or rejected. Exponentially this would work out to many chosen and few called. Any writings of Ray's on this particular aspect?

Am I missing something here?

No, Ray does not teach that it is many chosen and few called. The scriptures state:

Matt 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matt 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.


Just because the ratio in this parable was 2 chosen vs. 1 called, does not mean that is the absolute ratio for all mankind. The Lord is not teaching ratios, He is teaching what it is to DO the Will of God.

Iím sorry Marq, you did not understand what I said. I did not say Ray taught that many are chosen and few are called. I just called to attention that in the parable there are more condemned than are chosen. I then tried to ask (my bad for not communicating well) if Ray had any further teachings on this parable that might shed some light on his teachings that this parable is about many being called but few chosen and it applying to individuals.


All 10 of the servants are the "chosen", the citizens are the many called, I think. What about Luke 19:27? What does the "slaying" symbolize? (I'm guessing God's judgments, right?)

No, all 10 servants are not chosen seeing how one was wicked and disobedient.

Marq, does Ray teach that all the called are dealt with as harshly as we see in this parable?

cp
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Kat

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2010, 01:46:43 PM »


Hi Claypot,

Luke 19:21  For I feared You, because You are an austere man. You collect what You did not deposit, and reap what You did not sow.'

We have just seen in the previous verses where Christ has rewarded His servants/Elect at His return. Now here in verse 21 we see another person that Christ is addressing at His return. This is someone who was among the Elect, but does not seem happy about Christ's return and was not prepared.

Luke 12:47  And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

This is also what we see in the parable of the wheat and the tares. The tares are those among the wheat/Elect, but are not wheat/Elect and those will go into the lake of fire to judgement.

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

The number of persons in these parables are relative to what is being specifically spoken of.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

P.S. Lupac I think you are right about what verse 27 is speaking of.

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claypot

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2010, 02:03:30 PM »


Hi Claypot,

Luke 19:21  For I feared You, because You are an austere man. You collect what You did not deposit, and reap what You did not sow.'

We have just seen in the previous verses where Christ has rewarded His servants/Elect at His return. Now here in verse 21 we see another person that Christ is addressing at His return. This is someone who was among the Elect, but does not seem happy about Christ's return and was not prepared.

Luke 12:47  And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

This is also what we see in the parable of the wheat and the tares. The tares are those among the wheat/Elect, but are not wheat/Elect and those will go into the lake of fire to judgement.

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.
Kat, do you see God as austere? Do you see this parable as defining God as austere?


The number of persons in these parables are relative to what is being specifically spoken of.
I donít understand what you mean here Kat.


P.S. Lupac I think you are right about what verse 27 is speaking of.
Do you see vs 27 as saying that all that is not of God will be harshly eliminated?

cp


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claypot

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2010, 02:10:52 PM »


This is also what we see in the parable of the wheat and the tares. The tares are those among the wheat/Elect, but are not wheat/Elect and those will go into the lake of fire to judgement.

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Kat, are you saying here that the tares are the called? According to you does Ray teach that there are only the chosen and called? Just the 2 classes of people?

cp
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Kat

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2010, 03:29:08 PM »


Hi Claypot,

Quote
Kat, are you saying here that the tares are the called? According to you does Ray teach that there are only the chosen and called? Just the 2 classes of people?

Generally the Scriptures speak primarily of the Called/many/church and the Chosen/few/Elect. Of course this is not all the people in the world, there are those in the many other religions and the atheists, agnostics and nonreligious.

This particular part of the parable seems to be speaking of the Tares, which are those that 'look' like Wheat/Elect, but are not, that is why they will be burned/judged in the Lake of fire.

Quote
do you see God as austere? Do you see this parable as defining God as austere?

Luke 19:21  For I feared you, because you are an austere man.

That statement is made by one that was not a true Elect, therefore his judgement of Christ is not correct.

Quote
"The number of persons in these parables are relative to what is being specifically spoken of."

I donít understand what you mean here Kat.

This particular verse (21) of the parable was about the man that was not the true Chosen (tare), this is a specific segment of the called that dwell among the Elect. So the number is relative to that segment, not the entirety of the called.

Quote
Do you see vs 27 as saying that all that is not of God will be harshly eliminated?

Not eliminated, but in the Lake of fire their carnality will be slain in all of humanity, this is not a physical death.

Isa 66:15  For behold, the LORD will come with fire
       And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
       To render His anger with fury,
       And His rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16  For by fire and by His sword
       The LORD will judge all flesh;
       And the slain of the LORD shall be many.

In this age only the Elect/Chosen/few are dying to the carnal self, this is being "crucified with Christ."

Rom 6:6  We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me;

The whole human race must go through this process of killing/destroying the carnality/beast/flesh as the Elect are going through now. The 'fire' in the Lake of fire will be harsh, but only as each deserves as in few stripes, many stripes in Luke 12, but all will be ultimately saved.

1Cor 3:13  each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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claypot

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2010, 03:53:42 PM »



Kat, are you saying here that the tares are the called? According to you does Ray teach that there are only the chosen and called? Just the 2 classes of people?


Generally the Scriptures speak primarily of the Called/many/church and the Chosen/few/Elect. Of course this is not all the people in the world, there are those in the many other religions and the atheists, agnostics and nonreligious.

What does the Bible call these latter ones you mention according to you?


Kat, I asked, do you see God as austere?



Luke 19:21  For I feared you, because you are an austere man.

That statement is made by one that was not a true Elect, therefore his judgement of Christ is not correct.

Again, do YOU see God as austere?


Do you see vs 27 as saying that all that is not of God will be harshly eliminated?



Not eliminated, but in the Lake of fire their carnality will be slain in all of humanity, this is not a physical death.

Isnít this exactly what I asked? I asked if all that is not of God would be eliminated. You said their carnality would be slain.

Is there a difference Iím not seeing here?




In this age only the Elect/Chosen/few are dying to the carnal self, this is being "crucified with Christ."

Rom 6:6  We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me;

This is a very serious question as are all I ask but I just wanted to emphasize this one. I am not judging or anything like it. Do you consider yourself one of the elect? If so, why? Are your reasons different from any of those who think they may be of the elect but may not be?




The whole human race must go through this process of killing/destroying the carnality/beast/flesh as the Elect are going through now. The 'fire' in the Lake of fire will be harsh, but only as each deserves as in few stripes, many stripes in Luke 12, but all will be ultimately saved.

Amen. Are you saying within each person there is a beast, a man of sin, the old man?

cp
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Kat

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2010, 04:43:49 PM »


Claypot, it really is hard to discuss these things with you when you seem ignorant to a lot that Ray teaches. I do not believe that Ray states there is 'only' the called and the chosen in the world. That would leave out a tremendous amount of people not accounted for.

Quote
What does the Bible call these latter ones you mention according to you?

Rev 21:8  But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

I think they would fall somewhere in this group.

Quote
Again, do YOU see God as austere?

No I would not use that term for God.

Quote
Isnít this exactly what I asked? I asked if all that is not of God would be eliminated. You said their carnality would be slain.

Is there a difference Iím not seeing here?

When you said "all that is not of God would be eliminated," I guess I did not realize you were not speaking of the people here.

Quote
Do you consider yourself one of the elect? If so, why? Are your reasons different from any of those who think they may be of the elect but may not be?

1Co 9:24  Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.

At this point I feel like I am in the race, but only God knows who will endure to the end. I'm not certain of what others ideas may be, I can only speak for myself.

Quote
Are you saying within each person there is a beast, a man of sin, the old man?

Ray has several articles on this subject.

Who is the Beast? - 666?
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

The Beast Within
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 04:54:00 PM by Kat »
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claypot

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2010, 05:04:00 PM »

Thanks Kat, I'm off to read the articles you suggested and more. God is good. I'm entering burn out stage so I may seem incoherent but reading is less strenous that discussing so in the famous words of one of our politicians............

I'll be back!

cp
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Marky Mark

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Re: Parable of the Nobleman?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2010, 05:05:34 PM »

Quote
Kat, are you saying here that the tares are the called? According to you does Ray teach that there are only the chosen and called? Just the 2 classes of people?

I believe that Ray teaches that although there are the many called and the few chosen,these two groups are out of the same church,which would be babylon. There are certainly only two groups that are being called and chosen in this age. But when judgement comes to the earth upon Christs return, then all or the rest will be accounted for, along with the many called.

Email to Ray.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7390.0.html

Dear DNA:  That would rather be Matt. 7:13-14--Mat 7:13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.  Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it."

    I quoted it from the Concordant Literal New Testament so as to get the tense proper. Notice that it is the broad way that the many "are entering."  This is still going on, and it is through the narrowed way that "few are finding." This is nothing more than Jesus' statement that "many are called but few are chosen." But this pertains to this life only. In Judgment all will be judged as God's "House of God" is BEING judged NOW (See I Pet.4:17; I Cor. 11:31-32, etc.).

    God be with you,

    Ray




Peace...Mark
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