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Author Topic: Responsible & Accountable  (Read 4625 times)

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mannonthecross

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Responsible & Accountable
« on: June 22, 2006, 03:49:47 PM »

Hi you guys,

I have a question on the LOF, all the way back to Part 2.

Ray writes that God is RESPONSIBLE & we are ACCOUNTABLE. Even so, upon looking up both of these words in Webster's Dictionary & Thesaurus, I found that those two words are actually synonyms of each other-they actually mean the same thing.

Even though I believe that I understand what Ray is conveying, is there a better way to clarify God's being responsible & us being accountable?

Thanx
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Daniel

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Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2006, 04:07:09 PM »

Never thought of it that way.

I would "suppose" Him being True to His own word, making "us" answerable to Him for every idle word... Would be like His own word judging us (by our own words). Seems twofold to me.

I might not have said that the way I would have liked to (although today I truly have an excuse, trust me :lol: )

Peace

Daniel
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Gill

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Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 04:48:50 PM »

Hi Mannonthecross,

forgive me, i know this is over-simplified, but this is the way i look at it:

I have two sons.  I feel ultimately responsible for how they will turn out.  I brought them into this world; they didn't choose to be born (bear with me, i know all is of God, but for the sake of this example).
 
Part of my job in raising them to be good and decent adults is to make them accountable for the things they do.  How else will they know and learn right from wrong?

Accountability for sin is there for humanity's sake, so that we all will learn right from wrong.  And God won't shirk His responsibility to us all in bringing us through that learning process.
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TimothyVI

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Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 05:04:43 PM »

Let me over simplify  it even more.
If I asked your two boys to play baseball with me in your front yard, and one of them hit a ball and broke your window, I would be responsible for the action that caused the window to be broken, but the boy that broke it would be held accountable for the broken window.

I don't know, maybe that is too overly simplified, but it does show that the two words are not exactly synonymous.

Tim
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Andy_MI

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Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2006, 05:22:27 PM »

I don't know if this will help. I looked up the word responsible on dictionary.com and scrolled about half way down and it had this usage note:

Usage Note: Some critics have maintained that responsible should not be used to describe things, since only persons can be held accountable. The application to things is justifiable, however, when responsible is used to mean “being the source or cause of.� In an earlier survey, a majority of the Usage Panel accepted the sentence Faulty construction was responsible for the crash.

I also found the use of the word account in the new testament interesting.

Mat 12:36  But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account (gk 3056 logos) thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

G3056
λόγος
logos
Thayer Definition:
1) of speech
1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said
1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
1c) discourse
1c1) the act of speaking, speech
1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
1c3) a kind or style of speaking
1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
1d) doctrine, teaching
1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
2e1) reason would
2f) reason, cause, ground
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world’s life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man’s salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3004
Citing in TDNT: 4:69, 505

It's the same word used in John1:1

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word (gk 3056 logos), and the Word(gk3056 logos) was with God, and the Word was God.

I hope this helps,

Andy
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mannonthecross

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Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2006, 05:26:01 PM »

Thanx, Daniel for your reply. You answered quite well!   :wink:  You are reliable, knowledgeable & wise for one so young! How old did you say you are?  :D

Sometimes, well...maybe more than that we take words for granted (in more ways than one). For instance, in this case, attempting to convey the High Authority of God vs our accountability for our actions. It is interesting to ponder.

Because God is our Sovereign Creator, He & no other is responsible for His handiwork-which is us, His creation. And, of course, we are accountable for our own actions.

Even though responsible & accountable are synonyms in the dictionary, I guess that could be like saying one understands the "letter" of the meaning, but not the "spirit" of the meaning.  :?  :lol:

Anyway, responsible & accountable just don't seem to pack the punch for such a profound Truth. (This all makes way more sense in my thoughts than on paper).

Daniel, you mentioned that you are less than stellar today. My prayer is the the Lord vanquish that "thing" (infirmity?) that on occasion ATTEMPTS to bring you low. Please forgive me if my assumption is out of line.

Blessings
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mannonthecross

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Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 05:34:07 PM »

Tim & Gill,

Very good illustrations! Thank You! More often than not, simplified is best! :wink:


Andy,

Wow, great explanation! I guess I didn't search far enough or deep enough. That "Usage Note" pretty much nails what I thought the word responsbile was not conveying. Now I can see why. Great Job! 8)
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Daniel

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Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2006, 06:21:35 PM »

ManontheCross writes

Quote
Thanx, Daniel for your reply. You answered quite well!  You are reliable, knowledgeable & wise for one so young! How old did you say you are?
 

Well I'm glad as breif as that was put, but you figured me all wrong trust me, I'm as dull as they come :lol:  Andy hit it right on.

How old did I say I was?

I never said, should I?  :lol: I'm 41 years old, how about yourself manonthecross? Are you a younger or older fart then myself?  :wink:


ManontheCross writes

Quote
Sometimes, well...maybe more than that we take words for granted (in more ways than one). For instance, in this case, attempting to convey the High Authority of God vs our accountability for our actions. It is interesting to ponder.


I'm probrobly one of "those" who does do this to some degree :lol: (guilty as charged)  But obviously we will reap what we sow and give account for ourselves (even every idle word) as our Lord says "by His own word".

His word is fire and our words (or the tongue that utters them) is seen as a fire as well. Fire with fire?

I believe He wins though :wink:  

ManontheCross writes

Quote
God is our Sovereign Creator, He & no other is responsible for His handiwork-which is us, His creation. And, of course, we are accountable for our own actions.


Agreed :D

Quote
Even though responsible & accountable are synonyms in the dictionary, I guess that could be like saying one understands the "letter" of the meaning, but not the "spirit" of the meaning.  :?  :lol:  

Anyway, responsible & accountable just don't seem to pack the punch for such a profound Truth. (This all makes way more sense in my thoughts than on paper).


Hey, I think the same thing! Watch your catching a glimpse of inside does it no justice on paper, just the "wow" of the reality of the thing.

I think the flame the rich man was in torment of was his own tongue. I suppose we learn through "flare ups" as well as a consuming of ones "increase" :lol:

Manonthecross writes,

Quote
Daniel, you mentioned that you are less than stellar today. My prayer is the the Lord vanquish that "thing" (infirmity?) that on occasion ATTEMPTS to bring you low. Please forgive me if my assumption is out of line.


Thank you ManontheCross your not at all out of line (in fact, right on). I just had some light surgery yesterday no big deal. I am well, I'm taking a bit of Oxycodone for the pain.

What that REALLY MEANS I'm NOT in pain right now :lol: Equally so, I might not be "right on" about too much either :lol:

Peace to you bro, good post

Daniel
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Brett

  • Guest
Re: Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2006, 07:39:13 PM »

Quote from: mannonthecross
Hi you guys,

I have a question on the LOF, all the way back to Part 2.

Ray writes that God is RESPONSIBLE & we are ACCOUNTABLE. Even so, upon looking up both of these words in Webster's Dictionary & Thesaurus, I found that those two words are actually synonyms of each other-they actually mean the same thing.

Even though I believe that I understand what Ray is conveying, is there a better way to clarify God's being responsible & us being accountable?

Thanx



I thought about that since last year. I was thinking what is mean of responsible. Though maybe share with you of what I thought.

As you know 'Christendom' often teach that we are the responsible of what we have done on earth and God is not responsible. That is their myths. So, if suppose God is not responsible at all, then why would He send His Son to died on the cross for us? Simple, in scriptures show us that God created good and EVIL, He created us in MARRED, etc. So if we are responsible, then I would say God will not send His Son to died for us because we are responsible! It is our DO SOMETHING to fix things and we must pay for (responsible). And accountable is not do something to pay for. Andy showed us of accountable in Greek word meaning. This is very true that we are to speak before God of what we have done on the earth. His responsible is finished die on the cross and now another responsible is God will chasten all mankind for to purge, train, repentance and learn His truth in the Lake of Fire (except few chosen). Chasten will not have pleasing life, it will be worst painful in emotional  :(  but after that God will saved the rest of all mankind.  And all mankind will joyful with Him. O:)

Hope this is extra help. Sorry about lousy English.  :|
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mannonthecross

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Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2006, 08:14:27 PM »

Quote
I'm as dull as they come :lol:


Not!
Don't sell yourself so short Daniel. God has anointed you with wisdom & knowledge of His Truths & with the compassion of His heart. He truly has given you eyes to see & ears to hear & a heart that bleeds!

Amos 3:7  Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Quote
How old did I say I was? I never said, should I?  :lol: I'm 41 years old
,

Sorry, Daniel. I thought on one of the earlier threads where some were giving their ages, you were a twenty something.  :?

Quote
how about yourself manonthecross?
Are you a younger or older fart then myself?  :wink


Spiritually? Quite a bit younger. Chronologically? cough...cough...5-that would be 55 years. Lord preserve me!  :shock:

Quote
His word is fire and our words (or the tongue that utters them) is seen as a fire as well. Fire with fire?


Amen to that. And that fire (His Word) which not only hurts the flesh when it burns hot, it stinketh (the flesh, that is).  :lol:

Quote
I believe He wins though :wink:


Ain't no doubt about it!


Quote
just the "wow" of the reality of the thing.


yeah, THEE "WOW"!!

Quote
I think the flame the rich man was in torment of was his own tongue. I suppose we learn through "flare ups" as well as a consuming of ones "increase" :lol:


Do you mean increase of oneself?


Quote
What that REALLY MEANS I'm NOT in pain right now :lol: Equally so, I might not be "right on" about too much either :lol:


Daniel, the amount of God in you, shines through it all, pain or no pain, right on or right off.

Blessings to you, Daniel, my brother. Good fellowship!
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mannonthecross

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Re: Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2006, 11:25:24 PM »


Quote
Hope this is extra help. Sorry about lousy English.  :|

Hey Brett,

All input is welcomed & appreciated. Anytime, one brother comes to the aid of another it is a good thing!

Thanx
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Daniel

  • Guest
Re: Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2006, 03:29:56 AM »

Hey Manonthecross,

LOL man you got me figured wrong, anyway I appreciate the kind words and the encouragement as to how you meant it bro... though I thought you might be a sis? I saw you sign off as Tom, so Im not sure whether to kiss you are give you a pat on the back (laughing)

You wrote,
I thought on one of the earlier threads where some were giving their ages, you were a twenty something. 


Nah , thats about as long as I have been drawn to the Lord. My age "in the Lord" so to speak, if there is such a thing.

Your 55!  Wow! You ARE up there with the "Ancient of days" LOL (just busting on you). I'm right behind you, aint much of a difference no more Im thinking round my age and yours

I wrote (quotes arent working here)
I think the flame the rich man was in torment of was his own tongue. I suppose we learn through "flare ups" as well as a consuming of ones "increase"

You said
Do you mean increase of oneself?

I reply,

Well not exactly on that particular thought. On that one I was thinking on a "loss" there. Its scriptural to suffer a loss right?

Think of RICH man, He SAYETH He is RICH, not realizing he is poor. One man maketh himself RICH yet has NOTHING. Then because he SAYETH, (theres the TONGUE) which is a FIRE which maketh GREAT BOASTS right? I INCREASE IN GOODS (Im Rich) Its "The pride that goeth before destruction". It seems connected to the rooting out of ones increase.

Job 31:12 For it is a fire that consumeth to destruction, and would root out all mine increase.

Catch a glimpse of that? Or did that make sense as I was kinda seeing it? Just in that particular case as I saw it. Actually it was one of those things I caught sight of that put a bit of fear in me to consider my way before Him. It had become a great help to me personally.

Peace to you

Daniel

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mannonthecross

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Re: Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2006, 09:40:33 PM »

Daniel,

Actually, both my husband & I are mannonthecross-we post together usually. You know when you get up to this age, it takes two brains to equal one.  :D

Thanx for your replies & input. Good study material!

Blessings,
Tom & Marianne
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gmik

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Re: Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2006, 09:12:04 PM »

Let me over simplify  it even more.
If I asked your two boys to play baseball with me in your front yard, and one of them hit a ball and broke your window, I would be responsible for the action that caused the window to be broken, but the boy that broke it would be held accountable for the broken window.

I don't know, maybe that is too overly simplified, but it does show that the two words are not exactly synonymous.

Tim


In this case tho, It would be God who would be actually causing you, on purpose, to break the window.
So He was responsible, but the kid (you, me) will end up paying to fix it.
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Chris R

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Re: Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2006, 09:36:31 PM »

Hello,

This one verse really sums up Gods Responsiblity :

Romans 8:20 For the creature [mankind] was made subject to vanity,[sin] not willingly, but by reason of him [God] who hath subjected the same in hope,

We were created subject to sin..Not Willingly... But by God.
Again this is HOW God creates man in his image..

Pretty cool !

Chris R
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Brett

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Re: Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2006, 01:12:34 AM »

Hello,

This one verse really sums up Gods Responsiblity :

Romans 8:20 For the creature [mankind] was made subject to vanity,[sin] not willingly, but by reason of him [God] who hath subjected the same in hope,

We were created subject to sin..Not Willingly... But by God.
Again this is HOW God creates man in his image..

Pretty cool !

Chris R


Chris R,

Very good verse and brief comment!   ;)


Brett
(deaf)
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Falconn003

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Re: Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2006, 03:49:24 AM »

mannonthecross

Geee...... that is a good question you started this thread with........Have you thought to ask Ray himself about it ??


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Ward

  • Guest
Re: Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2006, 09:35:37 PM »

Quote
Let me over simplify  it even more.
If I asked your two boys to play baseball with me in your front yard, and one of them hit a ball and broke your window, I would be responsible for the action that caused the window to be broken, but the boy that broke it would be held accountable for the broken window.

I don't know, maybe that is too overly simplified, but it does show that the two words are not exactly synonymous.

Tim

In this case tho, It would be God who would be actually causing you, on purpose, to break the window.
So He was responsible, but the kid (you, me) will end up paying to fix it.

Just a thought here...  I don't think that "...the kid (you, me) will end up paying to fix it."  God has already "paid" thru the crucifixion of His Son, Christ Jesus.  The price is paid, but the Father, God, is/will be the best of fathers and bother to teach "the kid (you, me)" so that you will be the child he wants you to be.

Maybe that's overly simplified, too

Ward
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MG

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Re: Responsible & Accountable
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2006, 10:54:01 PM »

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to bible-truths.com

The statement about not being responsible, but being accountable jumped off the page when I read it and made me smile.

The church would try to make us repsponsible. 

I'm not sure what Ray meant by his statement, but this is what I think it might mean.

Not Responsible

Romans 5:11-13 (King James Version)

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Romans 7:7-20 (King James Version)

 7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.For without the law sin was dead.

 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

 12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

 14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


Being accountable

Romans 3 (King James Version)

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

My understanding is that we are not responsible for the sin passed down through Adam that we inherited, but to agree with God that we have sin is being accountable.

An example of this would be in Luke. The Pharisee was not accountable and the publican was.

Luke 18:10-14 (King James Version)
 
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.






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