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Author Topic: Something on aionios.  (Read 2604 times)

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Lupac

  • Guest
Something on aionios.
« on: March 31, 2010, 01:59:04 AM »

Hello. This, to me, was/is the proverbial nail in the coffin for "aionios" meaning "eternal". Ray's papers and others certainly helped, but I was reading a dialog a while back between a "universalist" and a "KJV-only eternal-hell..er". Um, yeah. Anyway, this quote was from a Greek copy of 1 Enoch, which is by no means scripture, but it would still reflect the language of the day, here's the quote from 1 Enoch 10:

Quote
"For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years."

And that's that. Pretty interesting, huh?
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Samson

  • Guest
Re: Something on aionios.
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2010, 11:15:49 AM »

Hello. This, to me, was/is the proverbial nail in the coffin for "aionios" meaning "eternal". Ray's papers and others certainly helped, but I was reading a dialog a while back between a "universalist" and a "KJV-only eternal-hell..er". Um, yeah. Anyway, this quote was from a Greek copy of 1 Enoch, which is by no means scripture, but it would still reflect the language of the day, here's the quote from 1 Enoch 10:

Quote
"For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years."

And that's that. Pretty interesting, huh?

Bryant,

           Remember, in our PM discussions that Aion and its derivatives can never mean "Eternal," "Everlasting" or "Forever." If the Greek Noun Aion means "An Age" with a beginning and an ending in it's length or duration, it's plural Aions and it's adjective Aionios and Aionian cannot mean something entirely different, the Etymology and Usage of the word will not allow it. Did you read Whence Eternity ! How Eternity Slipped In: By the Irish/Scottish Inventor; Greek Etymologist Alexander Thomson as I strongly suggested. Did you read Ray's Article: Is Everlasting Scriptural where he quotes Alexander Thomson and John Wesley Hanson(Aions) showing that Aionios was never interpreted as Everlasting or Aionian was never interpreted as meaning Eternal until sometime in the second Century and even then it wasn't widely held and even the Latin Church "Father" Tertullian had to add an extra meaning to the Latin Word "Aeternum" in order for it to mean "Endless" and He had the tendency to make Words mean what he wanted them to mean and He might not have fully understood Aionios. Also during the First Century, the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus used the Greek Septuagint(Translation of the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures(The Old Testament) By the Seventy Scribes and they translated the Hebrew Word Olam in this translation into the Greek Aion, so Aion has to be equivalent to the Hebrew Olam.

        Also, Orthodox Bible Scholars in their Bible Dictionaries(Strong's Hebrew-Greek, an exp.) use words like Aionios interchangeably to support their Doctrines and to not offend their Peer Group of Scholars and lose their Credibility and affect their large Salaries(Money), they have too much to lose Financially and will lose their Professional Standing and Importance amongst their Peers, even if they aren't deceived in these matters of Translation. In other words, they have an agenda. Ray Smith doesn't have any Wordly agenda to please, he's only interested and inspired to remain faithfull to God's Word. These Scholars are not even consistent in how they translated Aion and its derivatives. Sometimes they use the Greek Word Kosmos(World) interchangeably with Aion(An Age). In a few instances they translate "Aions" as Worlds, because they realize if they translated it "Eternitiies" in these passages instead of Worlds, it would say "Eternities of Eternities" and you can't have more than one Eternity. Also you can't have more than one Forever like the expression found in Revelation more than one time: "Forever and Ever;" Bryant, How many Forever's and Eternities can you have, if it means Endless. Also Dr. Strong(I have a copy of his Hebrew/Greek Bible Dictionary) has Aionios in one place defined as having a beginning and an ending, but also defines it as perpetual and endless. He has Olam being defined as "Time indefinite," which does not mean "Endless." I searched around His Bible Dictionary and noticed this about Aionios. Furthermore, He has Aion defined as "An Age," but uses it interchangeably with Kosmos(World) which means "Order of Things" or "Arrangement of Things." These Scholars are governed by their Context, Context, Context Agenda and their Bible Hermeneutics Agenda. They use these principles to justify the usage of how these words are defined and translated in order to support their Pet Doctrines, even when they don't translate these words the way they want them understood consistently. See some examples below in blue color.

ABRAHAMIC COVENANT: Gen. 17:1:

"And when Abraham was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before Me, AND be you perfect. And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiple thee exceedingly… And I will establish my covenant between Me and thee and your seed after you in their generations for a everlasting [Heb: olam] covenant. And I will give unto you, and to your seed after you, the land wherein you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting [olam] possession… This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and your seed after you; Every man child among you shall be CIRCUMCISED… He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with your money, must needs be circumcised: and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting [olam] covenant." (Gen. 17:1-2, 7-10, 13).

This was clearly not a "unilateral" covenant. It required walking perfectly before God and being circumcised. Now then, was this a covenant that would never end? Hardly: We are now instructed that if we are to be "Abraham’s seed," we are NOT TO BE PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISED of our foreskin! Paul emphatically and dogmatically declares: "Behold, I Paul say unto you, "IF YE BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING" (Gal. 5:2)! So much for that "unilateral EVERLASTING covenant."

The "EVERLASTING [olam] priesthood" of Exodus 40:15. And just how long did this "everlasting priesthood" last?

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the PRIESTHOOD BEING CHANGED, there is made of necessity a change also of the law… For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood" (Heb. 7:11-12, 14).

And so we have no more "EVERLASTING" Levitical priesthood, but rather a CHANGE in law and a CHANGE in the priesthood. And so this "everlasting/eternity" also lasted shy of 1500 years, and ENDED.

I will give just one of many examples in the Old Testament where "olam" absolutely cannot mean "forever" or "eternal" as Dr. Strong so erroneously defines it: Exodus 21:6—

"Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him FOR EVER [Heb: ‘olam’—Strong’s ‘ETERNITY’]."

Oh really? And does Dr. Strong also believe in ETERNAL SLAVERY?

Therefore we have just seen absolute and unarguable proof that the Hebrew olam does not and cannot possibly mean everlasting or eternal.

Comment: Some argue that "eon" in the singular means "age," but in the plural it means "forever" or "eternal." Let’s see how the Greek Septuagint uses both the singular and plural forms in these two verses"

Singular: Micah 4:5—"ets ton aiona kai epekeina….for the eon and BEYOND." Well that can’t possibly mean forever for eternal, as there can be nothing "beyond" eternity.

Plural: Dan. 12:3, "eis tous aionas kai eti….for the eons and LONGER." Once again, there can be nothing "longer" than eternity Besides, how is it possible to have a plurality of "eternities?"

Here are just a few scriptures in which "aionios" cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:

1. Rom. 16:25—"…according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world [Gk: aionios] began." You have attempted time and again to set up a straw man by insisting that if "aionios" is "eonian," then it must be changed to a noun and translated as "of the ages." Well check this bit of translating genius out. We have the ADJECTIVE word "aionios" and the KJV translators changed it to a NOUN, "world."

Well guess what? The word "world" (kosmos) is not found in this verse, furthermore, neither is the word "began." The Greek reads: "…in times eonian." Do we really believe in "times eternal." What does "time," let along "timeS" have to do with "eternity?" And as Paul speaks of the "revelation" of this secret, how could it EVER be revealed if it was kept secret ‘ETERNALLY?’ Do you not see a problem—a CONTRADICTION in all of this?

2. II Thes. 2:16—"…and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace." "Console" is defined as, "To allay sorrow or grief of." "Hope" is defined as, "To wish for something with expectations of its fulfillment." Now then, according to this inane KJV translation of this verse, just how long are we going to have our "SORROW AND GRIEF ALLAYED?" How long must we "HOPE" before we have our hope fulfilled? For ALL ETERNITY? Nonsense.

3. II Tim. 1:9—"…according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." The word "world" is not found in the Greek manuscripts, the word "began" is not found in the Greek manuscripts. Here is what the Greek says: "…before TIMES EONIAN." So where is the consistency with these translators? Could they not deceive the readers by translating this verse properly? If "aionios" means "eternal" or "evermore" then HOW, pray tell, can there be "TIMES" "BEFORF" "ETERNITY?" Give me a break. This is not translating; this is out and out planned deception! They change an adjective into a noun, then change the noun to a different word, then completely leave out the word "times." This total lack of scholarship and honesty is reprehensible!

Bryant, Did you notice Ray's explanation of 2Timothy. 1:9 regarding how they translate Aionios as World, when the Greek Word is Aionios or Aionian. Is that not deceptive. They had to do that because they realized it wouldn't make sense translated Forever, Times before Eternity;etc, because you can't have more than one Eternity. Read the other examples provided by Ray, in the above regarding the inconsistency of these Translators. It's true that they are deceived and they were hoping that the average Churchgoer wouldn't notice any of this and it's God's Plan that the majority of believers would be deceived.

 Bryant, considering the above and other thorough supports that you've been priveleged to learn about, Don't you be deceived and please don't concern yourself with the Book of Enoch, at least until you fully understand Genesis through Revelation. For myself, when I fully understand the entire Bible(Genesis through Revelation), maybe then I'll worry about the Book of Enoch, but that hasn't happened yet and may never happen this side of the Resurrection.

                         I wish to help you more, but time doesn't permit it.

                               Kind Regards, Samson.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Something on aionios.
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2010, 11:46:04 AM »


Hi Lupac,

That is interesting. I can see that the statement "For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years" both statements mean the same, a period of time.

So after all your studies on this, you have finally come to accept that the use of the word eternal in the Bible does not refer to endless time. It is interesting that the book of Enoch was what finally convinced you. But I feel it was all that you have already studied before that actually is the backbone of your understanding, so that this one statement from an unauthorized yet ancient book nailed it down for you. But it's good you found the proof you needed.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Lupac

  • Guest
Re: Something on aionios.
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2010, 07:20:06 PM »

Hello. This, to me, was/is the proverbial nail in the coffin for "aionios" meaning "eternal". Ray's papers and others certainly helped, but I was reading a dialog a while back between a "universalist" and a "KJV-only eternal-hell..er". Um, yeah. Anyway, this quote was from a Greek copy of 1 Enoch, which is by no means scripture, but it would still reflect the language of the day, here's the quote from 1 Enoch 10:

Quote
"For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years."

And that's that. Pretty interesting, huh?

Bryant,

           Remember, in our PM discussions that Aion and its derivatives can never mean "Eternal," "Everlasting" or "Forever." If the Greek Noun Aion means "An Age" with a beginning and an ending in it's length or duration, it's plural Aions and it's adjective Aionios and Aionian cannot mean something entirely different, the Etymology and Usage of the word will not allow it. Did you read Whence Eternity ! How Eternity Slipped In: By the Irish/Scottish Inventor; Greek Etymologist Alexander Thomson as I strongly suggested. Did you read Ray's Article: Is Everlasting Scriptural where he quotes Alexander Thomson and John Wesley Hanson(Aions) showing that Aionios was never interpreted as Everlasting or Aionian was never interpreted as meaning Eternal until sometime in the second Century and even then it wasn't widely held and even the Latin Church "Father" Tertullian had to add an extra meaning to the Latin Word "Aeternum" in order for it to mean "Endless" and He had the tendency to make Words mean what he wanted them to mean and He might not have fully understood Aionios. Also during the First Century, the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus used the Greek Septuagint(Translation of the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures(The Old Testament) By the Seventy Scribes and they translated the Hebrew Word Olam in this translation into the Greek Aion, so Aion has to be equivalent to the Hebrew Olam.

        Also, Orthodox Bible Scholars in their Bible Dictionaries(Strong's Hebrew-Greek, an exp.) use words like Aionios interchangeably to support their Doctrines and to not offend their Peer Group of Scholars and lose their Credibility and affect their large Salaries(Money), they have too much to lose Financially and will lose their Professional Standing and Importance amongst their Peers, even if they aren't deceived in these matters of Translation. In other words, they have an agenda. Ray Smith doesn't have any Wordly agenda to please, he's only interested and inspired to remain faithfull to God's Word. These Scholars are not even consistent in how they translated Aion and its derivatives. Sometimes they use the Greek Word Kosmos(World) interchangeably with Aion(An Age). In a few instances they translate "Aions" as Worlds, because they realize if they translated it "Eternitiies" in these passages instead of Worlds, it would say "Eternities of Eternities" and you can't have more than one Eternity. Also you can't have more than one Forever like the expression found in Revelation more than one time: "Forever and Ever;" Bryant, How many Forever's and Eternities can you have, if it means Endless. Also Dr. Strong(I have a copy of his Hebrew/Greek Bible Dictionary) has Aionios in one place defined as having a beginning and an ending, but also defines it as perpetual and endless. He has Olam being defined as "Time indefinite," which does not mean "Endless." I searched around His Bible Dictionary and noticed this about Aionios. Furthermore, He has Aion defined as "An Age," but uses it interchangeably with Kosmos(World) which means "Order of Things" or "Arrangement of Things." These Scholars are governed by their Context, Context, Context Agenda and their Bible Hermeneutics Agenda. They use these principles to justify the usage of how these words are defined and translated in order to support their Pet Doctrines, even when they don't translate these words the way they want them understood consistently. See some examples below in blue color.

ABRAHAMIC COVENANT: Gen. 17:1:

"And when Abraham was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before Me, AND be you perfect. And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiple thee exceedingly… And I will establish my covenant between Me and thee and your seed after you in their generations for a everlasting [Heb: olam] covenant. And I will give unto you, and to your seed after you, the land wherein you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting [olam] possession… This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and your seed after you; Every man child among you shall be CIRCUMCISED… He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with your money, must needs be circumcised: and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting [olam] covenant." (Gen. 17:1-2, 7-10, 13).

This was clearly not a "unilateral" covenant. It required walking perfectly before God and being circumcised. Now then, was this a covenant that would never end? Hardly: We are now instructed that if we are to be "Abraham’s seed," we are NOT TO BE PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISED of our foreskin! Paul emphatically and dogmatically declares: "Behold, I Paul say unto you, "IF YE BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING" (Gal. 5:2)! So much for that "unilateral EVERLASTING covenant."

The "EVERLASTING [olam] priesthood" of Exodus 40:15. And just how long did this "everlasting priesthood" last?

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the PRIESTHOOD BEING CHANGED, there is made of necessity a change also of the law… For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood" (Heb. 7:11-12, 14).

And so we have no more "EVERLASTING" Levitical priesthood, but rather a CHANGE in law and a CHANGE in the priesthood. And so this "everlasting/eternity" also lasted shy of 1500 years, and ENDED.

I will give just one of many examples in the Old Testament where "olam" absolutely cannot mean "forever" or "eternal" as Dr. Strong so erroneously defines it: Exodus 21:6—

"Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him FOR EVER [Heb: ‘olam’—Strong’s ‘ETERNITY’]."

Oh really? And does Dr. Strong also believe in ETERNAL SLAVERY?

Therefore we have just seen absolute and unarguable proof that the Hebrew olam does not and cannot possibly mean everlasting or eternal.

Comment: Some argue that "eon" in the singular means "age," but in the plural it means "forever" or "eternal." Let’s see how the Greek Septuagint uses both the singular and plural forms in these two verses"

Singular: Micah 4:5—"ets ton aiona kai epekeina….for the eon and BEYOND." Well that can’t possibly mean forever for eternal, as there can be nothing "beyond" eternity.

Plural: Dan. 12:3, "eis tous aionas kai eti….for the eons and LONGER." Once again, there can be nothing "longer" than eternity Besides, how is it possible to have a plurality of "eternities?"

Here are just a few scriptures in which "aionios" cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:

1. Rom. 16:25—"…according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world [Gk: aionios] began." You have attempted time and again to set up a straw man by insisting that if "aionios" is "eonian," then it must be changed to a noun and translated as "of the ages." Well check this bit of translating genius out. We have the ADJECTIVE word "aionios" and the KJV translators changed it to a NOUN, "world."

Well guess what? The word "world" (kosmos) is not found in this verse, furthermore, neither is the word "began." The Greek reads: "…in times eonian." Do we really believe in "times eternal." What does "time," let along "timeS" have to do with "eternity?" And as Paul speaks of the "revelation" of this secret, how could it EVER be revealed if it was kept secret ‘ETERNALLY?’ Do you not see a problem—a CONTRADICTION in all of this?

2. II Thes. 2:16—"…and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace." "Console" is defined as, "To allay sorrow or grief of." "Hope" is defined as, "To wish for something with expectations of its fulfillment." Now then, according to this inane KJV translation of this verse, just how long are we going to have our "SORROW AND GRIEF ALLAYED?" How long must we "HOPE" before we have our hope fulfilled? For ALL ETERNITY? Nonsense.

3. II Tim. 1:9—"…according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." The word "world" is not found in the Greek manuscripts, the word "began" is not found in the Greek manuscripts. Here is what the Greek says: "…before TIMES EONIAN." So where is the consistency with these translators? Could they not deceive the readers by translating this verse properly? If "aionios" means "eternal" or "evermore" then HOW, pray tell, can there be "TIMES" "BEFORF" "ETERNITY?" Give me a break. This is not translating; this is out and out planned deception! They change an adjective into a noun, then change the noun to a different word, then completely leave out the word "times." This total lack of scholarship and honesty is reprehensible!

Bryant, Did you notice Ray's explanation of 2Timothy. 1:9 regarding how they translate Aionios as World, when the Greek Word is Aionios or Aionian. Is that not deceptive. They had to do that because they realized it wouldn't make sense translated Forever, Times before Eternity;etc, because you can't have more than one Eternity. Read the other examples provided by Ray, in the above regarding the inconsistency of these Translators. It's true that they are deceived and they were hoping that the average Churchgoer wouldn't notice any of this and it's God's Plan that the majority of believers would be deceived.

 Bryant, considering the above and other thorough supports that you've been priveleged to learn about, Don't you be deceived and please don't concern yourself with the Book of Enoch, at least until you fully understand Genesis through Revelation. For myself, when I fully understand the entire Bible(Genesis through Revelation), maybe then I'll worry about the Book of Enoch, but that hasn't happened yet and may never happen this side of the Resurrection.

                         I wish to help you more, but time doesn't permit it.

                               Kind Regards, Samson.


Oh, I don't care about the book of Enoch, unless you believe that fallen angels had children with women that were over a mile tall... Yeah. I'm trying to learn not to worry anymore. It's God's will/desire that all men be saved, and He will do whatever He wants, so I just need to let go of this fear. I've been given more than enough proof that aion doesn't mean forever, but it's aionios that I'm more concerned about.

I know you don't have time now, and there's more than enough proof in the Scriptures. (I just found one in 2 Peter 1:11, Jesus' kingdom is "eonion", Paul says His kingdom ends, so it's not forever.)

But this passage in 2 Cor. 4:18 has me wondering what it means here:

Quote
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Thank you all so much.

EDIT: I just found and read Ray's comment on that verse. It makes much more sense now.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 07:50:21 PM by Lupac »
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markissluv

  • Guest
Re: Something on aionios.
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2010, 03:02:18 PM »

Wasn't the fact that the "sons of God" who came and saw the daughters of men"... one of the big reasons why God sent the flood? or no?
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Lupac

  • Guest
Re: Something on aionios.
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2010, 03:54:36 PM »

<sigh>.... Not this again.

Read here:

http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#angels

and maybe here too:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2831.0.html

EDIT: Sorry, I see you're new around here. Those links should help you.
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Something on aionios.
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2010, 04:06:57 PM »

Wasn't the fact that the "sons of God" who came and saw the daughters of men"... one of the big reasons why God sent the flood? or no?


No, Moses wrote the reason in the following verses:

Gen 6:5-6  God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth

Also, here is more information from Ray's 2008 Conference, which goes through scientific evidence and scriptures that show the flood was local: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8385.msg79675.html#msg79675


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Lupac

  • Guest
The Lord will not cast off for?...
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2010, 02:16:21 AM »

Okay, one more question. I have often used Lam. 3:31 for proof to myself, that God will bring all men to Him. Here's the scripture:

Quote
Lam 3:31  For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

The problem is, the word translated "ever" is olam. What is that supposed to mean? "The Lord will not cast off for an age?" YLT says

Quote
"For the Lord doth not cast off to the age."

So one is saying God will not cast off forever, the other is saying God does not cast off for the age. What does this mean? Thanks again.
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Roy Coates

  • Guest
Re: Something on aionios.
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2010, 11:29:55 AM »

I couldn't find anything on the specific verse Lam 3:31 but here is more information on olam, hope this helps.
 http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?action=post;topic=11639.0;num_replies=7
 Look I have read the FAQ on your website, but i would like to know, besides the strongs conc. i have.... how do i look up the original meanings in greek or hebrew. are there more or different concordances?.... I heard you speak about the Lexicon but i'm not familiar with it. The thing that brought this about was when you said that the word everlasting carried a different meaning that what we think. I'd like to study that.


        Dear Justin:AND LUPAC(mine)
        You cannot learn the true meaning of such words as "ad, olam, aion, aionios," etc. by reading a commentary or lexicon, or concordance like Strong's.  Dr. Strong defines "aion" as = "age" AND "eternity."
        When the Christians (who have doctrines to defend) write dictionaries and commentaries, they often lie concerning the meaning of words that go against their false teachings.  It takes a real teacher to point out these gross errors.
        
        That's like defining "minute" as "hour" AND "century."  It's nonsense. If all one had to do to learn the truth of these words was to look them up in a dictionary, I wouldn't need to even have a web site. You need to read and study (for a couple of hundred hours, at least) my paper: "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural?"   http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm You have to see how these words are USED, and have been USED, in Scripture, histories, etc.  I do not, for example, teach the truth concerning the damnable Christian doctrine of hell, by simply consulting Strong's dictionaries or any other dictionaries. Dictionaries can be a starting point, but it involves a whole lot more than that.

        God be with you,
        Ray

http://bible-truths.com/email15.htm
Hi Ray!

I've been looking at these words 'aion' and 'aionan'--I've read your paper to John Hagee as well as read some other similar studies on the tentmaker site.

I came across an interesting paper with a slightly different take on these words.  I think you may be interested to read this writing.

http://www.(see ray's email for the link I wont post here****org.uk

God bless!

Mike

[Ray Replies]

Dear Mike:

Thank you for the link on the "aions."

I have come to see over the years, that there are often well-meaning scholars who seem to be 100% accurate in their scholarship, when in reality, they have major flaws.

This researcher makes numerous assertions that he says are absolutely certain, that are not as he says.

Here are a couple, as I didn't read the whole paper, and don't have time to critique it in its entirety:

He states that Hebrew "olams" NEVER, EVER mean "age." That statement is NOT Scripturally true. Numbers 25:13 speaks of the priesthood of Aaron, and we read this:  "And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an EVERLASTING [Heb. 'olam'] priesthood...." We now know for a Scriptural FACT that this priesthood was NOT "everlasting," but rather lasted for an "age"--a long period of time having a beginning and an ending. We see in the book of Hebrews that this very priesthood NO LONGER EXISTS! The temple is gone and the tribe of Levi is gone. And so, it was an "age-abiding" or "eonian" priesthood, not an "everlasting" one.

He states that Hebrew "olams" are always periods that CANNOT BE SEEN OR KNOWN. This likewise, is an UNscriptural statement.  Often a man's lifetime is called an "olam," and when a person is born and when he dies is NOT an unknowable period of time.  Likewise the three days of Jonah's trial was is absolutely KNOWABLE.

One more: to suggest that the context can determine whether an "olam" is a short period of time or an longer period of time, or ETERNITY, can be deduced from the context. Hence when speaking of God, olams ALWAYS MEAN ETERNAL OR EVERLASTING. That's just not true. NOwhere will you find a statement in either the Old Testament or the New Testament where olam or aion is used with reference to God and then inserts a restrictive word such as "only."  When stating that God is an "eonian God," it never adds the word "only." As though God lives for the eons, ONLY! That is all unscriptural human reasoning.  Statements of FACT are never statements of RESTRICTION unless there are restrictive words present!! That God is "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" by no means suggests that He is the God of these three men ONLY!!

Okay, one more:  this author states that Heb. 1:2, "...makes the eons [ages]...." has to be translated world even though he concedes that God did "make the aions or ages."  And his proof for this assertion? He has not proof. He just makes the statement that this is speaking of a material creation and ages aren't material. God also "breathed" into Adam (breath is not material). The finished product of man was "a living soul." The soul of man is not material. Let's go back further: "Let there be LIGHT." Is light made out of material? Besides, how could Jesus have "made the worldS." How many "worlds" are there? There is but ONE WORLD. It should be translated "ages" as even my King James says in the margin.

Thanks a gain, and God be with you,

Ray

Maybe I'll take another look at his paper another time.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 12:21:20 PM by Roy Coates »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Something on aionios.
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2010, 12:41:24 PM »


Hi Lupac,

NKJV
Lam 3:31  For the Lord will not cast off forever.

Rotherham
Lam 3:31 Surely My Lord, will not cast off, unto times age-abiding;

When you see what this passage is speaking of it will make what is said in this verse easier to understand.
Jeremiah is speaking of the terrible sufferings in this life, but he goes on to acknowledge God’s justice. I think what he's referring to in verse 31 is God's justice, "For the Lord will not cast off (reject) forever (always - perpetually)," or the evil and suffering of this age will come to an end.  This verse in Psalms says much the same thing.

Look at another verse to see how 'forever' is used there.

NKJV
Jer 3:5  Will He remain angry forever? Will He keep it to the end?'

Rotherham
Jer 3:5 Will He maintain His anger to times age-abiding? Will he keep it perpetually?

This present evil age will not last forever, it will come to an end.

NKJV
Psa 94:14  For the LORD will not cast off His people, Nor will He forsake His inheritance.
v. 15  But judgment will return to righteousness, And all the upright in heart will follow it.

Hope that helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Something on aionios.
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2010, 03:08:22 PM »

Hi Lupac

The Scriptures do not contradict.  :)

Excerpt from e-mail responses from Ray.


« on: April 09, 2007, 10:09:52 AM
Ninteyfive percent of all the tens of thousands of emails I receive, have to do with CONTRADICTIONS:  either contradictions of the Scriptures, contradictions of God, or contradiction that they think I have made in my writings.

Arc
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