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Something on aionios.
Lupac:
Hello. This, to me, was/is the proverbial nail in the coffin for "aionios" meaning "eternal". Ray's papers and others certainly helped, but I was reading a dialog a while back between a "universalist" and a "KJV-only eternal-hell..er". Um, yeah. Anyway, this quote was from a Greek copy of 1 Enoch, which is by no means scripture, but it would still reflect the language of the day, here's the quote from 1 Enoch 10:
--- Quote ---"For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years."
--- End quote ---
And that's that. Pretty interesting, huh?
Samson:
--- Quote from: Lupac on March 30, 2010, 10:59:04 PM ---Hello. This, to me, was/is the proverbial nail in the coffin for "aionios" meaning "eternal". Ray's papers and others certainly helped, but I was reading a dialog a while back between a "universalist" and a "KJV-only eternal-hell..er". Um, yeah. Anyway, this quote was from a Greek copy of 1 Enoch, which is by no means scripture, but it would still reflect the language of the day, here's the quote from 1 Enoch 10:
--- Quote ---"For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years."
--- End quote ---
And that's that. Pretty interesting, huh?
--- End quote ---
Bryant,
Remember, in our PM discussions that Aion and its derivatives can never mean "Eternal," "Everlasting" or "Forever." If the Greek Noun Aion means "An Age" with a beginning and an ending in it's length or duration, it's plural Aions and it's adjective Aionios and Aionian cannot mean something entirely different, the Etymology and Usage of the word will not allow it. Did you read Whence Eternity ! How Eternity Slipped In: By the Irish/Scottish Inventor; Greek Etymologist Alexander Thomson as I strongly suggested. Did you read Ray's Article: Is Everlasting Scriptural where he quotes Alexander Thomson and John Wesley Hanson(Aions) showing that Aionios was never interpreted as Everlasting or Aionian was never interpreted as meaning Eternal until sometime in the second Century and even then it wasn't widely held and even the Latin Church "Father" Tertullian had to add an extra meaning to the Latin Word "Aeternum" in order for it to mean "Endless" and He had the tendency to make Words mean what he wanted them to mean and He might not have fully understood Aionios. Also during the First Century, the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus used the Greek Septuagint(Translation of the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures(The Old Testament) By the Seventy Scribes and they translated the Hebrew Word Olam in this translation into the Greek Aion, so Aion has to be equivalent to the Hebrew Olam.
Also, Orthodox Bible Scholars in their Bible Dictionaries(Strong's Hebrew-Greek, an exp.) use words like Aionios interchangeably to support their Doctrines and to not offend their Peer Group of Scholars and lose their Credibility and affect their large Salaries(Money), they have too much to lose Financially and will lose their Professional Standing and Importance amongst their Peers, even if they aren't deceived in these matters of Translation. In other words, they have an agenda. Ray Smith doesn't have any Wordly agenda to please, he's only interested and inspired to remain faithfull to God's Word. These Scholars are not even consistent in how they translated Aion and its derivatives. Sometimes they use the Greek Word Kosmos(World) interchangeably with Aion(An Age). In a few instances they translate "Aions" as Worlds, because they realize if they translated it "Eternitiies" in these passages instead of Worlds, it would say "Eternities of Eternities" and you can't have more than one Eternity. Also you can't have more than one Forever like the expression found in Revelation more than one time: "Forever and Ever;" Bryant, How many Forever's and Eternities can you have, if it means Endless. Also Dr. Strong(I have a copy of his Hebrew/Greek Bible Dictionary) has Aionios in one place defined as having a beginning and an ending, but also defines it as perpetual and endless. He has Olam being defined as "Time indefinite," which does not mean "Endless." I searched around His Bible Dictionary and noticed this about Aionios. Furthermore, He has Aion defined as "An Age," but uses it interchangeably with Kosmos(World) which means "Order of Things" or "Arrangement of Things." These Scholars are governed by their Context, Context, Context Agenda and their Bible Hermeneutics Agenda. They use these principles to justify the usage of how these words are defined and translated in order to support their Pet Doctrines, even when they don't translate these words the way they want them understood consistently. See some examples below in blue color.
ABRAHAMIC COVENANT: Gen. 17:1:
"And when Abraham was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before Me, AND be you perfect. And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiple thee exceedingly… And I will establish my covenant between Me and thee and your seed after you in their generations for a everlasting [Heb: olam] covenant. And I will give unto you, and to your seed after you, the land wherein you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting [olam] possession… This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and your seed after you; Every man child among you shall be CIRCUMCISED… He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with your money, must needs be circumcised: and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting [olam] covenant." (Gen. 17:1-2, 7-10, 13).
This was clearly not a "unilateral" covenant. It required walking perfectly before God and being circumcised. Now then, was this a covenant that would never end? Hardly: We are now instructed that if we are to be "Abraham’s seed," we are NOT TO BE PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISED of our foreskin! Paul emphatically and dogmatically declares: "Behold, I Paul say unto you, "IF YE BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING" (Gal. 5:2)! So much for that "unilateral EVERLASTING covenant."
The "EVERLASTING [olam] priesthood" of Exodus 40:15. And just how long did this "everlasting priesthood" last?
"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the PRIESTHOOD BEING CHANGED, there is made of necessity a change also of the law… For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood" (Heb. 7:11-12, 14).
And so we have no more "EVERLASTING" Levitical priesthood, but rather a CHANGE in law and a CHANGE in the priesthood. And so this "everlasting/eternity" also lasted shy of 1500 years, and ENDED.
I will give just one of many examples in the Old Testament where "olam" absolutely cannot mean "forever" or "eternal" as Dr. Strong so erroneously defines it: Exodus 21:6—
"Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him FOR EVER [Heb: ‘olam’—Strong’s ‘ETERNITY’]."
Oh really? And does Dr. Strong also believe in ETERNAL SLAVERY?
Therefore we have just seen absolute and unarguable proof that the Hebrew olam does not and cannot possibly mean everlasting or eternal.
Comment: Some argue that "eon" in the singular means "age," but in the plural it means "forever" or "eternal." Let’s see how the Greek Septuagint uses both the singular and plural forms in these two verses"
Singular: Micah 4:5—"ets ton aiona kai epekeina….for the eon and BEYOND." Well that can’t possibly mean forever for eternal, as there can be nothing "beyond" eternity.
Plural: Dan. 12:3, "eis tous aionas kai eti….for the eons and LONGER." Once again, there can be nothing "longer" than eternity Besides, how is it possible to have a plurality of "eternities?"
Here are just a few scriptures in which "aionios" cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:
1. Rom. 16:25—"…according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world [Gk: aionios] began." You have attempted time and again to set up a straw man by insisting that if "aionios" is "eonian," then it must be changed to a noun and translated as "of the ages." Well check this bit of translating genius out. We have the ADJECTIVE word "aionios" and the KJV translators changed it to a NOUN, "world."
Well guess what? The word "world" (kosmos) is not found in this verse, furthermore, neither is the word "began." The Greek reads: "…in times eonian." Do we really believe in "times eternal." What does "time," let along "timeS" have to do with "eternity?" And as Paul speaks of the "revelation" of this secret, how could it EVER be revealed if it was kept secret ‘ETERNALLY?’ Do you not see a problem—a CONTRADICTION in all of this?
2. II Thes. 2:16—"…and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace." "Console" is defined as, "To allay sorrow or grief of." "Hope" is defined as, "To wish for something with expectations of its fulfillment." Now then, according to this inane KJV translation of this verse, just how long are we going to have our "SORROW AND GRIEF ALLAYED?" How long must we "HOPE" before we have our hope fulfilled? For ALL ETERNITY? Nonsense.
3. II Tim. 1:9—"…according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." The word "world" is not found in the Greek manuscripts, the word "began" is not found in the Greek manuscripts. Here is what the Greek says: "…before TIMES EONIAN." So where is the consistency with these translators? Could they not deceive the readers by translating this verse properly? If "aionios" means "eternal" or "evermore" then HOW, pray tell, can there be "TIMES" "BEFORF" "ETERNITY?" Give me a break. This is not translating; this is out and out planned deception! They change an adjective into a noun, then change the noun to a different word, then completely leave out the word "times." This total lack of scholarship and honesty is reprehensible!
Bryant, Did you notice Ray's explanation of 2Timothy. 1:9 regarding how they translate Aionios as World, when the Greek Word is Aionios or Aionian. Is that not deceptive. They had to do that because they realized it wouldn't make sense translated Forever, Times before Eternity;etc, because you can't have more than one Eternity. Read the other examples provided by Ray, in the above regarding the inconsistency of these Translators. It's true that they are deceived and they were hoping that the average Churchgoer wouldn't notice any of this and it's God's Plan that the majority of believers would be deceived.
Bryant, considering the above and other thorough supports that you've been priveleged to learn about, Don't you be deceived and please don't concern yourself with the Book of Enoch, at least until you fully understand Genesis through Revelation. For myself, when I fully understand the entire Bible(Genesis through Revelation), maybe then I'll worry about the Book of Enoch, but that hasn't happened yet and may never happen this side of the Resurrection.
I wish to help you more, but time doesn't permit it.
Kind Regards, Samson.
Kat:
Hi Lupac,
That is interesting. I can see that the statement "For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years" both statements mean the same, a period of time.
So after all your studies on this, you have finally come to accept that the use of the word eternal in the Bible does not refer to endless time. It is interesting that the book of Enoch was what finally convinced you. But I feel it was all that you have already studied before that actually is the backbone of your understanding, so that this one statement from an unauthorized yet ancient book nailed it down for you. But it's good you found the proof you needed.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Lupac:
--- Quote from: Samson on March 31, 2010, 08:15:49 AM ---
--- Quote from: Lupac on March 30, 2010, 10:59:04 PM ---Hello. This, to me, was/is the proverbial nail in the coffin for "aionios" meaning "eternal". Ray's papers and others certainly helped, but I was reading a dialog a while back between a "universalist" and a "KJV-only eternal-hell..er". Um, yeah. Anyway, this quote was from a Greek copy of 1 Enoch, which is by no means scripture, but it would still reflect the language of the day, here's the quote from 1 Enoch 10:
--- Quote ---"For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years."
--- End quote ---
And that's that. Pretty interesting, huh?
--- End quote ---
Bryant,
Remember, in our PM discussions that Aion and its derivatives can never mean "Eternal," "Everlasting" or "Forever." If the Greek Noun Aion means "An Age" with a beginning and an ending in it's length or duration, it's plural Aions and it's adjective Aionios and Aionian cannot mean something entirely different, the Etymology and Usage of the word will not allow it. Did you read Whence Eternity ! How Eternity Slipped In: By the Irish/Scottish Inventor; Greek Etymologist Alexander Thomson as I strongly suggested. Did you read Ray's Article: Is Everlasting Scriptural where he quotes Alexander Thomson and John Wesley Hanson(Aions) showing that Aionios was never interpreted as Everlasting or Aionian was never interpreted as meaning Eternal until sometime in the second Century and even then it wasn't widely held and even the Latin Church "Father" Tertullian had to add an extra meaning to the Latin Word "Aeternum" in order for it to mean "Endless" and He had the tendency to make Words mean what he wanted them to mean and He might not have fully understood Aionios. Also during the First Century, the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus used the Greek Septuagint(Translation of the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures(The Old Testament) By the Seventy Scribes and they translated the Hebrew Word Olam in this translation into the Greek Aion, so Aion has to be equivalent to the Hebrew Olam.
Also, Orthodox Bible Scholars in their Bible Dictionaries(Strong's Hebrew-Greek, an exp.) use words like Aionios interchangeably to support their Doctrines and to not offend their Peer Group of Scholars and lose their Credibility and affect their large Salaries(Money), they have too much to lose Financially and will lose their Professional Standing and Importance amongst their Peers, even if they aren't deceived in these matters of Translation. In other words, they have an agenda. Ray Smith doesn't have any Wordly agenda to please, he's only interested and inspired to remain faithfull to God's Word. These Scholars are not even consistent in how they translated Aion and its derivatives. Sometimes they use the Greek Word Kosmos(World) interchangeably with Aion(An Age). In a few instances they translate "Aions" as Worlds, because they realize if they translated it "Eternitiies" in these passages instead of Worlds, it would say "Eternities of Eternities" and you can't have more than one Eternity. Also you can't have more than one Forever like the expression found in Revelation more than one time: "Forever and Ever;" Bryant, How many Forever's and Eternities can you have, if it means Endless. Also Dr. Strong(I have a copy of his Hebrew/Greek Bible Dictionary) has Aionios in one place defined as having a beginning and an ending, but also defines it as perpetual and endless. He has Olam being defined as "Time indefinite," which does not mean "Endless." I searched around His Bible Dictionary and noticed this about Aionios. Furthermore, He has Aion defined as "An Age," but uses it interchangeably with Kosmos(World) which means "Order of Things" or "Arrangement of Things." These Scholars are governed by their Context, Context, Context Agenda and their Bible Hermeneutics Agenda. They use these principles to justify the usage of how these words are defined and translated in order to support their Pet Doctrines, even when they don't translate these words the way they want them understood consistently. See some examples below in blue color.
ABRAHAMIC COVENANT: Gen. 17:1:
"And when Abraham was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before Me, AND be you perfect. And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiple thee exceedingly… And I will establish my covenant between Me and thee and your seed after you in their generations for a everlasting [Heb: olam] covenant. And I will give unto you, and to your seed after you, the land wherein you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting [olam] possession… This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and your seed after you; Every man child among you shall be CIRCUMCISED… He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with your money, must needs be circumcised: and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting [olam] covenant." (Gen. 17:1-2, 7-10, 13).
This was clearly not a "unilateral" covenant. It required walking perfectly before God and being circumcised. Now then, was this a covenant that would never end? Hardly: We are now instructed that if we are to be "Abraham’s seed," we are NOT TO BE PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISED of our foreskin! Paul emphatically and dogmatically declares: "Behold, I Paul say unto you, "IF YE BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING" (Gal. 5:2)! So much for that "unilateral EVERLASTING covenant."
The "EVERLASTING [olam] priesthood" of Exodus 40:15. And just how long did this "everlasting priesthood" last?
"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the PRIESTHOOD BEING CHANGED, there is made of necessity a change also of the law… For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood" (Heb. 7:11-12, 14).
And so we have no more "EVERLASTING" Levitical priesthood, but rather a CHANGE in law and a CHANGE in the priesthood. And so this "everlasting/eternity" also lasted shy of 1500 years, and ENDED.
I will give just one of many examples in the Old Testament where "olam" absolutely cannot mean "forever" or "eternal" as Dr. Strong so erroneously defines it: Exodus 21:6—
"Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him FOR EVER [Heb: ‘olam’—Strong’s ‘ETERNITY’]."
Oh really? And does Dr. Strong also believe in ETERNAL SLAVERY?
Therefore we have just seen absolute and unarguable proof that the Hebrew olam does not and cannot possibly mean everlasting or eternal.
Comment: Some argue that "eon" in the singular means "age," but in the plural it means "forever" or "eternal." Let’s see how the Greek Septuagint uses both the singular and plural forms in these two verses"
Singular: Micah 4:5—"ets ton aiona kai epekeina….for the eon and BEYOND." Well that can’t possibly mean forever for eternal, as there can be nothing "beyond" eternity.
Plural: Dan. 12:3, "eis tous aionas kai eti….for the eons and LONGER." Once again, there can be nothing "longer" than eternity Besides, how is it possible to have a plurality of "eternities?"
Here are just a few scriptures in which "aionios" cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:
1. Rom. 16:25—"…according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world [Gk: aionios] began." You have attempted time and again to set up a straw man by insisting that if "aionios" is "eonian," then it must be changed to a noun and translated as "of the ages." Well check this bit of translating genius out. We have the ADJECTIVE word "aionios" and the KJV translators changed it to a NOUN, "world."
Well guess what? The word "world" (kosmos) is not found in this verse, furthermore, neither is the word "began." The Greek reads: "…in times eonian." Do we really believe in "times eternal." What does "time," let along "timeS" have to do with "eternity?" And as Paul speaks of the "revelation" of this secret, how could it EVER be revealed if it was kept secret ‘ETERNALLY?’ Do you not see a problem—a CONTRADICTION in all of this?
2. II Thes. 2:16—"…and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace." "Console" is defined as, "To allay sorrow or grief of." "Hope" is defined as, "To wish for something with expectations of its fulfillment." Now then, according to this inane KJV translation of this verse, just how long are we going to have our "SORROW AND GRIEF ALLAYED?" How long must we "HOPE" before we have our hope fulfilled? For ALL ETERNITY? Nonsense.
3. II Tim. 1:9—"…according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." The word "world" is not found in the Greek manuscripts, the word "began" is not found in the Greek manuscripts. Here is what the Greek says: "…before TIMES EONIAN." So where is the consistency with these translators? Could they not deceive the readers by translating this verse properly? If "aionios" means "eternal" or "evermore" then HOW, pray tell, can there be "TIMES" "BEFORF" "ETERNITY?" Give me a break. This is not translating; this is out and out planned deception! They change an adjective into a noun, then change the noun to a different word, then completely leave out the word "times." This total lack of scholarship and honesty is reprehensible!
Bryant, Did you notice Ray's explanation of 2Timothy. 1:9 regarding how they translate Aionios as World, when the Greek Word is Aionios or Aionian. Is that not deceptive. They had to do that because they realized it wouldn't make sense translated Forever, Times before Eternity;etc, because you can't have more than one Eternity. Read the other examples provided by Ray, in the above regarding the inconsistency of these Translators. It's true that they are deceived and they were hoping that the average Churchgoer wouldn't notice any of this and it's God's Plan that the majority of believers would be deceived.
Bryant, considering the above and other thorough supports that you've been priveleged to learn about, Don't you be deceived and please don't concern yourself with the Book of Enoch, at least until you fully understand Genesis through Revelation. For myself, when I fully understand the entire Bible(Genesis through Revelation), maybe then I'll worry about the Book of Enoch, but that hasn't happened yet and may never happen this side of the Resurrection.
I wish to help you more, but time doesn't permit it.
Kind Regards, Samson.
--- End quote ---
Oh, I don't care about the book of Enoch, unless you believe that fallen angels had children with women that were over a mile tall... Yeah. I'm trying to learn not to worry anymore. It's God's will/desire that all men be saved, and He will do whatever He wants, so I just need to let go of this fear. I've been given more than enough proof that aion doesn't mean forever, but it's aionios that I'm more concerned about.
I know you don't have time now, and there's more than enough proof in the Scriptures. (I just found one in 2 Peter 1:11, Jesus' kingdom is "eonion", Paul says His kingdom ends, so it's not forever.)
But this passage in 2 Cor. 4:18 has me wondering what it means here:
--- Quote ---While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
--- End quote ---
Thank you all so much.
EDIT: I just found and read Ray's comment on that verse. It makes much more sense now.
markissluv:
Wasn't the fact that the "sons of God" who came and saw the daughters of men"... one of the big reasons why God sent the flood? or no?
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