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Luke 9-Elijah Moses-Transfiguration
markn902:
Hi everyone :)
My wife and I currently reading through Luke as our Bible Study that we do every week and I thought I might post on here about Luke 9 vs 28-36 where Jesus is praying and then the apostles saw a vision of Elijah and Moses. After that came the booming voice saying "this is my son listen to Him"
So I was hoping to open this up to comments specifically what was the point or meaning of Elijah and Moses being seen with Jesus? For that matter how would these apostles recognize Elijah or Moses seeing how they were long since dead?
I used the search feature and found this post
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7245.0.html
--- Quote ---BUT ...you could look at this way: they are ALL SPEAKING THE SAME MESSAGE, side by side...THEY are ALL in AGREEMENT with eachother, concerning the prophecies about Jesus! (*Remember that Jesus TRIED to tell the disciples several times that He would be crucified at Jerusalem...but they didn't GET IT!)
--- End quote ---
I can agree with that but it seems like there may be more to it than that..
It seems almost deliberately misleading ( I hate to say that about scripture I hope that's not offensive) But if you look at those verses (28-36) they come right after vs 18-20 where people are spreading rumors that Jesus was Elijah or John the Baptist or some other prophet that had come back to life now that's not possible according to scripture and also in vs 27 Jesus tells His Apostles some of you will not taste death until you see the kingdom of God. Which is another verse that people have used to teach what would seem to be a contradicting truth about death and the resurrection.
So any comments would be great. I am not in a spiritual emergency over this or anything like that. I am just interested in what other like minded individuals have to say on this. Am I wrong to say "deliberately misleading"?
Thanks everyone have a nice day
Samson:
Hey Mark,
I got your PM, a few minutes ago. Unfortunately I'm busier than usually, have to work a 12 hour shift for second day in a row, one of the Day Shift guys got fired and we are covering, plus my Wife just had surgery a week ago and I need to assist her too, have to take her to the Doctor for a follup check up before work. However, while reading the copy I printed of The Origin Of Endless Punishment By Ray last night at work, I stumbled upon a point regarding the Disciples of Jesus and some of their erroneous beliefs that they had regarding the afterlife. At that time, Jesus didn't correct their Heresy right away, but didn't say they were right either. Jesus had many things to tell them, but they weren't ready for full explanation at that time. See the Subheading found below from Ray's article on endless punishment, it doesn't directly answer your question, but I think it might shed some light on their mindset. See below in blue ! I will get back to you later.
THE SIN OF A MAN BORN BLIND:
"And as Jesus passed by, He saw a man which was blind from his birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:1-2)
What? How, pray tell, could this blind man be responsible for his own blindness when we are plainly told that he was born blind? Not only did the disciples believe the pagan doctrine that the soul is immortal, but they believed that souls could transmigrate from one body to another body.
The idea that the disciples are presenting to Jesus is the pagan doctrine known today as "The transmigration of souls." This doctrine teaches that souls do not just live on, as in "immortal" after death, in some fabled hellhole of eternal torture, or some heaven on a rock in outer space, but rather that at death, the immortal soul migrates to inhabit the body of another person about to born into the world.
Many in the world today continue to believe in reincarnation and the transmigration of souls. There are some pagans who believe that the souls of the dead can also reappear in the life of a pig, snake, nor some other animal.
Seriously, why would Christ’s disciples believe that a man could have sinned before he was ever born?
But what is even more remarkable is the fact that Jesus did not correct them, but rather went along with and acquiesced to their pagan notions. Jesus did not demean their foolish statement or their foolish belief, but countered with:
"Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents…" (John 9:3).
Jesus spoke the truth, for truly this man had not sinned (however, Jesus did not inform them that it would have been impossible for him to sin before he was born). But Jesus did not expose this pagan heresy to His disciples at this time. For what possible reason would Jesus want to keep His own disciples deceived?
REINCARNATION/TRANSMIGRATION OF SOULS:
On another occasion:
"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that You are John the Baptist: some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets" (Matt. 16:13-14).
Some even thought that He might be John the Baptist, which is really strange, seeing that Jesus was already the same age as John, when John was beheaded.
Did Jesus Christ believe in reincarnation and the transmigration of immortal souls? Where did this teaching come from, and why does Jesus make reference to it? Why didn’t Jesus expose this pagan heresy to His disciples instead of going along with their false statements?
PARABLES - THE RICH MAN IN HELL/HADES:
"And in hell [Gk: ‘hades’] he [the Rich man] lift up his eyes, being in torment, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23).
The Egyptians called their place of punishment in the underworld, amenti. When the Greeks borrowed most of the Egyptian myths surrounding this place called amenti, they called it by the name hades.
Thomas Thayer supports Professor Stuart, Greppo's Essay, and Spineto, that: "The Amenti of the Egyptians originated the classic fables of Hades and Tartarus." (Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, Chapt. 3, P. 7).
Did Jesus believe that when people die, they are consciously alive and tormented in the pagan hell of the Greeks named after their pagan god, hades?
Why would Jesus use pagan religious doctrines and beliefs to teach spiritual truths of God? Haven’t these things deceived the Church and caused the many different denominations of Christendom? Yes, of course they have, and so have all the parables which Jesus taught that virtually no Church understands. The Church does not even understand the few parables that Jesus explained!
How many theologians believe and understand that all the parables are the same parable? Tis true:
"And He [Jesus] said unto them, Know you not this parable? And how then shall you know all parables? (Mark 4:13).
All parables are the same parable. I know: it boggles the mind. It takes the Spirit of God to understand these spiritual teachings.
And just as when Jesus said: "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," no one understands what He meant until it was fulfilled. Everyone thought he meant the literal physical stone temple rather than His own body.
Likewise, only the "Chosen few" can understand the parables as they are fulfilled in their own lives, generation by generation, until the parables are fulfilled.
The Jews of Jesus’ day learned these pagan teachings referred to above, plus many more, but from where did they learn them? For a fact they did not learn them from Moses, the Prophets, or Hebrew Scriptures. Who taught these pagan doctrines? Can we trace back such doctrines as "the immortality of the soul," "reincarnation," "consciousness and everlasting punishment after death?" Yes, we can.
Hope some of these excerpts help, I wasn't aware of some of these points until yesterday, must of forgot, but the Apostles and disciples had false understandings regarding the afterlife, derived from the Pharisees. Anyway, hope it helps somewhat. Correspond with you at a later date.
Kind Regards, Samson.
arion:
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Elijah and Moses really didn't appear to the disciples. It's clear that it was a vision. This is one of the scriptures that people will use to attempt to prove that believers are in heaven right now and aren't really dead when they die. I know that doesn't address your specific questions but it's something that is interesting nevertheless.
Deborah-Leigh:
--- Quote --- Am I wrong to say "deliberately misleading"?
--- End quote ---
You have correctly discerned. :)
Jesus taught the masses in parables and parables ONLY so that they would NOT understand the message He was giving them (See Matt. 13). L Ray smith PARABLES ARE NOT LITERALLY TRUE STORIES LOF 1
Consider also the false teachings that overthrow the faith of some and how this is accomplished.
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
--- Quote ---Jesus tells His Apostles some of you will not taste death until you see the kingdom of God
--- End quote ---
Also consider the following:
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead [ spiritually dead people] which were in it;
This is speaking of the SPIRITUALLY DEAD from the great sea of humanity.... L Ray Smith SAFETY AND SECURITY IN THE DIVINE LAKE OF FIRE LOF PARTX11
Some stranding here were surely the Apostles of Christ who would not be those counted with the spiritually dead would they? :)
Arc
markn902:
Thanks you for your replies everyone :) and Samson I hope your wife is recovering well. Hopefully you can get some R&R soon!
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