Mediums

[EKnight]

My husband's sister is talking about contacting my husband through a medium which she also did when their father died.  I told her this is a waste of time and money as the dead are dead and know nothing.  However, I came across this passage in 1 Samuel and would have a hard time defending my position because of it:

1 Samuel 28:   3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."
      "There is one in Endor," they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
      "Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
      The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."

14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
      "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
      Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
      "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.

Any insight??

Eileen

[Marky Mark]

Hi Eileen.
Here is an email reply from Ray.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,124.0.html


Hi Ray,

Could you tell me if you explain the "calling up" or "bringing up" of Samuel by the woman at Endor for Saul (1 Sam 28:11 - 19) anywhere in your web site's info. This is due to the fact that I believe the Word that when we die we are dead, our souls are in Hades and Hades is a place of no perception etc as mentioned countless times by you as well.

Your knowledge about this will be appreciated,

God be with you,
Anton


Dear Anton:

Saul does not obey or trust God.

So he goes to a pagan inspired witch that are condemned in Israel.

The witch has a familiar spirit--a demon.

Saul asks the witch to call up Samuel's spirit--a pagan teaching.

God actually caused this opportunity to tell Saul his fate by the channel that Saul himself choose.

God revealed the fate of Saul through this witch.

Samuel was never there. Saul assumed that the "old man" had to be Samuel. It was not.

God be with you,

Ray





Peace...Mark

[Joel]

No good came to Saul by contacting a medium, you will have the same results.
NO GOOD, I mean.

Joel

[EKnight]

Interesting.  That's what I told my sister-in-law.  She said a really "smart" friend of hers who is not easily deceived went to a medium.  I told her these people are under the control of satan.  She was like "there is nothing satanic about it".  I told her they are wolves in sheep's clothing and she should steer clear of it and that my husband did not believe in this.  She tried to tell me she had Mark convinced after telling him what her medium said to her after their father died, something about my husband's name and she said Mark was laughing until she told him this.  But Mark did not believe this garbage so I let the conversation end there.  I just didn't understand this in Samuel. 

Eileen

[mharrell08]

2 Sam 22:26-27  With the merciful thou [God] wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright. With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.

Ps 18:25-26  With the merciful thou [God] wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.


On a side note, I'm pretty sure David had Saul's plight in mind when he wrote these passages above. It is always interesting to see the different pearls of wisdom being displayed in the Old & New Testaments.


Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Eileen

If you still need a "defense of 1 Samuel" perhaps these will help.

Joh 11:25  "I am the Resurrection and the Life," said Jesus;

No Medium fits this description or High Office and Power of God our Creator.

Rev 1:18  I died; but I am now alive until the Ages of the Ages, and I have the keys of the gates of Death and of Hades!

No medium has access to the dead. They can  talk to the dead day in and day out, not knowing our Creator and our God,

Luk 20:38  For He is not God of the dead, but of the living. For all live to Him.

Arc

[Kat]

Hi Eileen,

Consider that a medium is channeling/contacting a spirit being and if it were one of God's messengers He would have sent it, which is not the case with channeling. So you have people who are dealing with these spirits and that is opening the door to the wickedness that they can stir up. Now these spirits certainly can know things because they have been around a long time and can see what's going on in this world. So it's not surprising that they know things about people, it is unsettling to know they are watching. These spirits are referred to as "lying spirits" in the bible (1 Kings 22:22; 2 Chr 18:21) and therefore you can not believe anything that comes from them. If your sister-in-law presists with this there is nothing you can do about that, but steer far clear of these going ons yourself.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[EKnight]

I have no intentions of dishonoring our Lord or my husband by partaking in this nonsense.  I know that if my husband could contact me, he would and I wouldn't need a medium anyway.  It's not like my sister-in-law reads the bible and would come across this in Samuel anyway.  I just didn't understand it when I read it.  I was confused.  I do, however, wish that God would bring him to me in my dreams so I could be comforted in some way. 

Eileen

[EKnight]

Since we're on the topic of Samuel, I have been reading and I get confused.  It's quite an interesting story and I know there is probably much meat in there but I only see it as a story right now.  But what I don't get is why David keeps referring to Saul as one of God's anointed when Saul seems like a bad guy trying to kill David.  Saul is disobedient.  I must not be seeing the big picture.

Eileen

[mharrell08]

Since we're on the topic of Samuel, I have been reading and I get confused.  It's quite an interesting story and I know there is probably much meat in there but I only see it as a story right now.  But what I don't get is why David keeps referring to Saul as one of God's anointed when Saul seems like a bad guy trying to kill David.  Saul is disobedient.  I must not be seeing the big picture.

Eileen

Because Saul was anointed by the Lord to be ruler of Israel.

1 Sam 9:15-16  Now the LORD had told Samuel in his ear the day before Saul came, saying, "Tomorrow about this time I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him commander over My people Israel, that he may save My people from the hand of the Philistines; for I have looked upon My people, because their cry has come to Me."

Ultimately, Saul was convinced that David wanted to slay him and take over his rulership, but David proves to Saul that his intentions are pure:

1 Sam 24:6-7  he [David] said to his men, "The LORD forbid that I should do this thing to my master, the LORD's anointed, to stretch out my hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the LORD." So David restrained his servants with these words, and did not allow them to rise against Saul...

v9-10  David said to Saul: "Why do you listen to the words of men who say, 'Indeed David seeks your harm'? Look, this day your eyes have seen that the LORD delivered you today into my hand in the cave, and someone urged me to kill you. But my eye spared you...

v16-20  So it was, when David had finished speaking these words to Saul, that Saul said, "Is this your voice, my son David?" And Saul lifted up his voice and wept.  Then he said to David: "You are more righteous than I; for you have rewarded me with good, whereas I have rewarded you with evil.

And you have shown this day how you have dealt well with me; for when the LORD delivered me into your hand, you did not kill me. For if a man finds his enemy, will he let him get away safely? Therefore may the LORD reward you with good for what you have done to me this day.

And now I know indeed that you shall surely be king, and that the kingdom of Israel shall be established in your hand


Hope this helps,

Marques


P.S. And looking at the bigger picture, this event with Saul & David are the words & wisdom of God being applied for 'our admonition' [1 Cor 10:11]

Rom 12:9  Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rom 12:21  Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good

[Deborah-Leigh]

I do, however, wish that God would bring him to me in my dreams so I could be comforted in some way.

I think I know what you mean Eileen.

After my Mother died, I had a dream of her coming to me from the Heavens and descending towards me and she said three times, I am not dead, I am alive.

I woke up and felt like phoning her not recalling that she was dead at all. Then the dream came back and as I realized again, that she was in fact dead, yet the dream and the message gave me comfort in a very deep and meaningful way.

I do, however, wish that God would bring him to me in my dreams

You can always day dream.

Sometimes a spur-of-the-moment - caused by God, gift of a feeling, that you just know is to do with your husband, that can also be comforting.

God Love you
Deb

[Deborah-Leigh]

David keeps referring to Saul as one of God's anointed when Saul seems like a bad guy trying to kill David.  Saul is disobedient.

Yes, and there are beautiful lessons in this story written for our admonition.

God gave Israel a King after the likes of the Pagan Kings that the elders of Israel admired and requested God to provide for them.

1Sa 8:4  Then all the elders of Israel assembled, and came to Samuel to Ramah,
1Sa 8:5  And said to him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

They were not satisfied that God lead them. They wanted a man to replace God. So..

1Sa 9:2  .............. Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and there was not among the children of Israel a more handsome person than he: from his shoulders and upward he was higher than any of the people.

Saul was "handsome" approved of the people (unlike our Lord and Savior). The people did not judge according to the heart but by appearances. The people wanted a man to lead them who they esteemed according to worldly values not Godly principles.

God gave then what they wanted. 

1Sa 8:7  And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken to the voice of the people in all that they say to thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
1Sa 8:8  According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them out of Egypt even to this day, by which they have forsaken Me, and served other gods, so do they also to thee.
1Sa 8:9  Now therefore hearken to their voice.....

One of the beautiful lessons in this is it is better to follow, desire, discern and seek after God, not man. 

Arc

[G. Driggs]

My husband's sister is talking about contacting my husband through a medium which she also did when their father died.  I told her this is a waste of time and money as the dead are dead and know nothing.  However, I came across this passage in 1 Samuel and would have a hard time defending my position because of it:

Eze 14:4  Therefore tell them, 'The Message of GOD, the Master: All in Israel who install idols in their hearts and embrace the wickedness that will ruin them and still have the gall to come to a prophet, be on notice: I, GOD, will step in and personally answer them as they come dragging along their mob of idols.
Eze 14:5  I am ready to go to work on the hearts of the house of Israel, all of whom have left me for their idols.'
Eze 14:6  "Therefore, say to the house of Israel: 'GOD, the Master, says, Repent! Turn your backs on your no-god idols. Turn your backs on all your outrageous obscenities.
Eze 14:7  To every last person from the house of Israel, including any of the resident aliens who live in Israel--all who turn their backs on me and embrace idols, who install the wickedness that will ruin them at the center of their lives and then have the gall to go to the prophet to ask me questions--I, GOD, will step in and give the answer myself.

G.Driggs

[Deborah-Leigh]

I, GOD, will step in and give the answer myself.

God takes no pleasure in sacrifices or any other Gospel or Medium who is not our High Priest Jesus Christ. Paraclete, Comforter and our ever Present Spirit of Truth and Faith. 

Arc

[daywalker]

Hello Eileen,

Sounds to me like you've told your sister all you can. You've explained what the Scriptures say about death and 'after death', and she doesn't believe them. Seems the only solution is to let her go seek a medium if she must, but you be no part of it. You gave her the warning, so God won't hold you accountable for what she does with the information you gave her. [see Ezekiel 3:18-21; 33:1-9]

But that's just my opinion...

Daywalker 

[onelovedread]

My Sister, Eileen:
I was just thinking: How about a re-reading of Ray's "TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD" just so that you can get a fresh perspective on that passage in Samuel and the questions you have on Saul's being referred to as God's anointed?
I am sure you've read it many times but He may just give you new insight as you do once again.
Who knows? Maybe you'll be able to deal with the situation from a different angle.
Think it's worthwhile?

[Billy Bob White]

Hi, Arc

I'm sure that God must be very proud of you for using words that most people don't understand, like PARACLETE.  You are a very educated person indeed.  I just asked 3 other members what that word meant and none of them knew.  I'm not trying to be insulting, but I have to wonder, do you walk on water?  It seems that you are so far out of my league of the understanding of the knowledge of my Father that I feel like a babe in diapers.  I've read all of Ray's papers and believe all of his teachings.  Am I missing something?  

BBW  

[daywalker]

Hi, Arc

I'm sure that God must be very proud of you for using words that most people don't understand, like PARACLETE.  You are a very educated person indeed.  I just asked 3 other members what that word meant and none of them knew.  I'm not trying to be insulting, but I have to wonder, do you walk on water?  It seems that you are so far out of my league of the understanding of the knowledge of my Father that I feel like a babe in diapers.  I've read all of Ray's papers and believe all of his teachings.  Am I missing something?  

BBW  

Cheez-wiz... easy on the temper there...

I believe Arc meant to say "parakletos" which is the Greek word translated 'comforter' in John 14:26, and also 'entreater' in I John 2:1. [Feel free to lookup both verses to see why she uses it. ...And yes, Ray does speak on this in his Trinity article located on the main bibletruths website.]

Arc is not the type of person to act all 'high and mighty', I think you just misunderstood.. I can see you're new, so I'll go easy on ya... 


Daywalker 

[Marky Mark]

BBW,goggle is our friend. And so is Deborah aka;Arcturus .

paraclete (plural paracletes)

an advocate, especially the Holy Spirit
1963: The matter of a Paraclete's coming, the comforter, the dove; the tongues of flame, the gift of tongues: Pentecost. Third Person of the Trinity. — Thomas Pynchon, V.
[edit] See alsoComforter


Peace...Mark

[Billy Bob White]

Hi, Day

You don't have to go easy on me 'cause I was back reading this sight when there were some real people of wisdom posting.  You may think that it is cute that Arc puts these big words in her posts that most people don't understand and 75% don't have a dictionary to back it up.  I don't think it's all that cute.

John from Kentucky, the last time I posted you called me a liar and I didn't respond because at that time I felt that you didn't know any better but now that you've stuck your foot in this pool of water I thought that I would let you know that who you really called a liar was God because I gave you scripture to back up everything I said.  Next time, go back and read ECC before you jump in.

Hey, Markey, did you know what she was saying when you first read it?  Did you honestly know what that big word was?  There are people in other countries that don't have dictionaries and can barely (if at all) speak English.  Why should we make it more complicated than it is?   God and Jesus (one and the same) are so simplistic, everyone is trying to make it more complicated than it is.  Why can't we make it so the everyday man can understand what we're talking about?

Hey, I love y'ans all in the spirit of Jesus Christ

BBW