Past or Future? Rev.12:7-9

[traveltramp]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this forum so please bear with me. I read the Lake of Fire series and believe it as the truth. I do have a few questions though. How to interpret some of the verses I'm not sure of in the Word? In part IX " Life and mission of satan the serpent devil" Ray clearly illustrated via Scripture that satan never was an angel cast out of heaven. In Revelation 12:7-9 we read the following:
"Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going out to the fight with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels made war,
Rev 12:8  And they were overcome, and there was no more place for them in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was forced down, the old snake, who is named the Evil One and Satan, by whom all the earth is turned from the right way; he was forced down to the earth, and his angels were forced down with him".

So the immediate assumption made (at least by me) was that satan( and his angels) is/was in heaven and is to be/was cast down to earth.
Now the book of Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ  and I take it that most of what is written in this book is still to come. But I'm not sure, hence my question in the subject line. Can anyone shed some more light on this verse please?

Thanks
Traveltramp

[mharrell08]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this forum so please bear with me. I read the Lake of Fire series and believe it as the truth. I do have a few questions though. How to interpret some of the verses I'm not sure of in the Word? In part IX " Life and mission of satan the serpent devil" Ray clearly illustrated via Scripture that satan never was an angel cast out of heaven. In Revelation 12:7-9 we read the following:
"Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going out to the fight with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels made war,
Rev 12:8  And they were overcome, and there was no more place for them in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was forced down, the old snake, who is named the Evil One and Satan, by whom all the earth is turned from the right way; he was forced down to the earth, and his angels were forced down with him".

So the immediate assumption made (at least by me) was that satan( and his angels) is/was in heaven and is to be/was cast down to earth.
Now the book of Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ  and I take it that most of what is written in this book is still to come. But I'm not sure, hence my question in the subject line. Can anyone shed some more light on this verse please?

Thanks
Traveltramp

Hello Traveltramp,

The testimony of Revelation is neither 'the past only' nor 'the future only'. All the symbolism used throughout the book of Revelation is fulfilled in the life of the believer, in all believers in all generations.

The word 'Heaven' in Rev 12 is not a literal place, high in the sky. It is symbolic of a higher, spiritual realm than the earth...similar to Christ's admonition against the town of Capernaum [Matt 11:23, Luke 10:15] and Ray explains in more detail in LOF #9, under the heading 'GOD'S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN'S HEAVEN'.

The 'war' being spoken of is the same 'war' that Paul was engaged in:

Rom 7:23  I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Eph 6:11-13  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high ['high' as in 'heavenly'] places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

As it says in Rev 12:8, they [Satan & his angels] were 'overcome':

1 John 4:4  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 5:4-5  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Satan is the god of this world (II Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). And his ministers [angels] appear as ministers of righteousness [1 Cor 11:15]. Rev 12 is using symbols to express how believers overcome Satan and his ministry in this world, throughout their life...and in every life of the believers down through the generations starting at the apostles.

Hope this is not too much of a mouthful but continue reading the site. Ray goes over all these points, and more, in far greater detail in the LOF series as well as other papers.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

The 'war' being spoken of is the same 'war' that Paul was engaged in:

Marques insightfully identifies that  we too experience this war and as believers we too are called to overcome.

2Co 10:3  For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh:

War requires, necessitates, has need of, entails and involves deception. Fought in the spiritual realms and finally won brings about ... no more place for deceit, impurity or guile in heaven as expressed by...

Rev 12:8  And they were overcome, and there was no more place for them in heaven.

1Th 2:3  For our exhortation was not from deceit, nor from impurity, nor in guile;

Welcome to the Forum Traveltramp.

Thank you for your question.

Arc

[legoman]

Hi guys,

Is the Lake of Fire itself fulfilled in man's life right now?

Or is it a future event?

Legoman

[mharrell08]

Hi guys,

Is the Lake of Fire itself fulfilled in man's life right now?

Or is it a future event?

Legoman

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-E (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm):

GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH THROUGH JUDGMENT

As a young man I used to think, horrors of horrors, God is going to throw people into a lake of fire which will be their SECOND death! It all seemed so frightful and final. Little did I know that we are all destined for some form of this same lake of fire/second death/judgment. Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.

It's all in Rom. 8:13:

"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

Paul puts people into two options (based on God's foreknowledge):

OPTION ONE is for the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because "it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

OPTION TWO is for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).

The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).

"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).

But how can I say that all these Scriptures have reference to our Second Death, seeing that not one of them mentions a "second death?" The answer is threefold:

The Second Death IS Judgment, and Judgment after the resurrection is called the Second death.

The Lake of Fire IS the Second Death, and we too go through the Lake of Fire (also called, Gehenna fire, eonian fire, etc.), so we too go through the Second Death, and the above Scriptures refer to the Judgment of death on God's Elect.

We will see that this Second Death comes after a previous death, and therefore must be a "second" death. Notice how our death is linked with fire.

GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH IN FIRE

We would do well to review lessons we learned in the "Lake of Fire" Installment 3, Judgment by Fire Must Begin at the House of God, and Installment 6, The Two Judgments by FIRE, and Installment 16, D-3, The Sermon on the Mount is for YOU. Recapping quickly:

*Jesus taught that "Gehenna fire" is first applicable to US, His Disciples & Elect:

"But I say unto you [Christ's disciples, the Elect, YOU, right now] ...shall be in danger of Gehenna fire" (Matt. 5:22).

"And if thy right eye offend you [the eye of a disciple, any true follower of Jesus Christ] ...thy whole body [body of His disciples, that's us] should be cast into Gehenna" (Verse 29-30).

*He said this fire was "...already kindled" during His ministry (Luke 12:49).

Jesus comes to us as a Comforter, but also as a Refiner. All the symbolic, spiritual fires of Scripture are the same fire. The fire of Gehenna, eonian fire, unquenchable fire, furnace of fire, salted with fire, fire already kindled, God's consuming fire, chaff burning fire, tares burning fire, fiery trials, ministry of flaming fire, and lake of fire are all the same spiritual consuming fire of God. And they all accomplish the same thing--THEY PURIFY!

"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness" (Mal. 3:2-3).

Notice that Jesus is returning to purify the sons of Levi--not Levi, but Levi's sons. Just who are these sons of Levi that Jesus will purge when He comes?

Can we still remember that "the words that I [Jesus] speak unto you, they ARE SPIRIT" (John 6:63)? Who are these sons that Jesus is first going to purge? Remember that the Levites were the priests under the Old Covenant. Malachi was the last book written before Jesus brought the New Covenant. Now, under the New Covenant, Jesus Christ is the High Priest, and we, the Elect, are the priests under Him:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (I Pet. 2:5 & 9).

"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:10).

The apostle Paul tells us how this spiritual Refiner's fire will purify and save us:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (I Cor. 3:13-15).

The apostle Peter was well aware of God's trials by fire:

"That the trial of your faith [the 'your' being all the Elect House of God], being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tried with fire (I Pet. 1:7).

"Beloved [God's Elect], think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you" (I Pet. 4:12).

Fiery trials will try God's Chosen Elect. If you aren't tried in this spiritual fire that Jesus had already kindled during His ministry, then you are not Jesus' disciple.

Years ago I saw in a repetitive phrase with slight variations used in the book of Revelation, that the testimony, witness, and prophecy of Jesus Christ is for all ages:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, says the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:08).

And so, when Jesus says:

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent" (Rev. 3:18-19)

He is speaking to those in the first century, those in the last two thousand years, and to us today. These prophecies spoken to the Seven Churches of Asia are spoken to the entire Church through all the centuries.

The likeness of gold being refined and purified with fire is used several times in Scripture to show us that we must all go through a similar process to that of purifying precious metals under extreme heat and pressure, which produce a product of great price and value.


Yes Kevin, in the life of the believer now or in the life of the wicked & unbelieving in the next age. Take some time to go through this paper again and the preceding installments of Part 16.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[aqrinc]

When you are Given Sight and when you hear His Voice, Today, harden not your heart.

Heb:3:1 to 6-20 Inclusive

george .

[traveltramp]

Thanks Marques,
I do understand these verses better now.

God bless and keep you
Traveltramp

[legoman]

Thanks Marques.