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Author Topic: heb 4:12???  (Read 4794 times)

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wisdom

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heb 4:12???
« on: May 18, 2010, 09:59:32 PM »

Can someone give an explanation on heb 4:12 where its talking about the marrow I know you've covered this topic but what is the meaning of THIS verse, thanks
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wisdom

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2010, 10:04:37 PM »

Also. 1thess 5:23 thanks. Please explain why it says body, soul, and spirit.
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GinaMilan

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2010, 01:27:05 AM »

Also. 1thess 5:23 thanks. Please explain why it says body, soul, and spirit.

Hi, Wisdom

It perplexes me too, especially in light of the fact that we know that the soul is made up of the body and the spirit -- "became a living soul."  But maybe this might help aid you in your studies?

1 Thes 5:23 (spirit, soul, body):

spirit     Strong's g4151     πνεῦμα pneuma
    
soul         Strong's g5590    ψυχή psychē    

body         Strong's g4983    σῶμα sōma    

If you have access to a study aid, like Strong's or Wigrams (sp?), you could look up the definitions from the Greek?  (Sorry, I'm new to study aids.)

I found it fascinating (but not very enlightening), to look up the root words of each of the above and their definitions.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 01:29:47 AM by GinaMilan »
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GinaMilan

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2010, 01:55:32 AM »

Can someone give an explanation on heb 4:12 where its talking about the marrow I know you've covered this topic but what is the meaning of THIS verse, thanks

Hi, again

Sometimes it helps to see verses in different translations or versions:

Youngs:
Hbr 4:12     for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;

Concordant Literal:
4:12 For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12 (Amplified Bible):
For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the [a]breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.


And then here are some other verses that contain the word "marrow" that might help when comparing spiritual things with spiritual:

KJV
Job 21:24
His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow.

Psalm 63:5
My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise thee with joyful lips:

Proverbs 3:8
It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Isaiah 25:6
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.



Last but not least, is a definition of marrow from one source that might shed some light on its spiritual meaning.  
Source:  My computer's dictionary ;)

marrow |ˈmarō|
noun

1 (also bone marrow) a soft fatty substance in the cavities of bones, in which blood cells are produced (often taken as typifying strength and vitality).


2 (also vegetable marrow) Brit. a white-fleshed green-skinned gourd, which is eaten as a vegetable.

PHRASES
to the marrow to one's innermost being : a sight which chilled me to the marrow.


If you do a search for "sword" and "two-edged sword" you'll find those phrases a lot in Revelation and that will shed a lot of light on it and how it's used of God.

From what I can tell, Hebrews 4:12 is saying that the Word of God is LIVING and ACTIVE and is able to get to the "heart of the matter" so to speak because it searches our hidden motives and cleans us up -- so if I want to be clean, I should stay in the Word?  Probably.  ;)  The Holy Spirit will teach you all things, so don't worry that it may not make total sense right now, it will eventually.  You can count on it.  

Love,
Gina

« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 02:07:50 AM by GinaMilan »
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wisdom

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2010, 02:14:35 AM »

Thanks Gina, I asked because I was having a discussion with someone who believed that man is made up of a triune nature and these are the scriptures he used in his defense. If possible would appreciate more insight from other members or a moderator or two, thanks a lot though gina that helped.
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GinaMilan

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2010, 02:22:45 AM »

Triune nature?

Welp!  Gotta run................

 ;D
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wisdom

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2010, 02:48:22 AM »

Lol.......... I understand. .........but why aren't moderators commenting? Nobody else has any comment on the above scriptures or have you commented too much already. If that's the case please provide me with the link or index, God bless.
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GinaMilan

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2010, 03:22:58 AM »

Oh, haha!  Have I said too much?  What?  Too many notes?  That's cute!

I can only imagine why they haven't commented.  haha...maybe they're sleeping... maybe they're busy...  maybe they perceive, like I do, that this person you're having a discussion with regarding the  "triune nature of man" is trying to "defend" their views because they don't believe that God is in the process of makING mankind in His image and they only want to engage you in a worthless debate?  And maybe the mods and the others don't have any desire to go down that road, because they know it's of no value when the matter is already settled?  I really can't say... your guess is as good as mine.

Anyway, per your request ;) here are a couple of links to help aid you in your own studies:
  
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

(Do a search in those documents for "soul" "spirit" and "body.")

Here's a link to the entire site:  http://www.bible-truths.com/  

I hope that helps and I hope you have a good night, Wisdom.

 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 03:41:12 AM by GinaMilan »
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wisdom

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2010, 04:08:03 AM »

Thanks gina I really appreciate your help and have a goodnight also.
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mharrell08

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2010, 08:26:52 AM »

Lol.......... I understand. .........but why aren't moderators commenting? Nobody else has any comment on the above scriptures or have you commented too much already. If that's the case please provide me with the link or index, God bless.


FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11605.0.html

Wisdom,

Sometimes it takes a little time for members to respond, for whatever personal reasons we all may have.

Now regarding the 2 verses you bring up: How does your friend establish his/her point that this 'proves' that humans are made up of a 'triune nature'?

All humans have the 'spirit of life' [Gen 2:7] in them, otherwise they would be dead. But the scriptures also speak of humans having 'a' spirit in them.

Sometimes these 'spirits' are spirits of righteousness:

2 Cor 1:21-22  Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 3:16-17  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith...


Others we are told are of wickedness:

1 Kings 22:22-23  the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Isa 19:14  The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit


So what does this mean regarding the scriptures in question?

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The writer is being as spot-on as can be...a 'discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart'. He is not talking of dividing the soul from the spirit of life...no, the spirit in the person related to their thoughts and intents. The spirit that Paul spoke of from the scriptures above is the intent of spreading the gospel, a spirit of righteousness. The spirit that the Lord sent amongst the false prophets is the intent of declaring false declarations, in the name of the Lord.

1 Thess 5:23  the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, this is concerning 'a' spirit in a person...not pertaining to the spirit of life that all humans have which, with our body, is what makes our souls. Pauls says that he prays that the spirit that works in us be blameless or without fault...a spirit of righteousness. Not a perverse spirit, like 'the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience' [Eph 2:2].


Hope this helps,

Marques

P.S.  Members, this is why it is so hard to discuss the scriptures with self-proclaimed Christians. They have assumptions regarding the scriptures, based on their false church doctrine, and it blinds them to the truth. They think they 'see' something being said in the scriptures when it's not said at all. 'A lying & perverse spirit in the midst of them'.
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GinaMilan

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2010, 12:20:41 PM »

mharrell08, thank you!  I needed that explanation myself.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2010, 12:49:02 PM »

Hi wisdom,

 “What is the meaning of THIS verse”  could be asked for ANY verse of Scripture in the entire Word of God.   :D

When Jesus opened the minds of the two on the road to Emmaus, He explained HIMSELF.  When He was recognized then  He was no longer visible.  We may want to see Jesus in the natural and may come across others seeking to find Him LITERALLY,  but He is risen and no longer do we know Him according to the flesh.  8)

Christ gave us word symbols to show us a higher spiritual teaching, namely that eating bread which gives physical life is symbolic of eating the real bread of life from heaven, the SPIRITUAL FLESH OF JESUS ("eating" and "flesh" also being symbolic of something else), which imparts SPIRITUAL LIFE. LOF 4

The Spirit of God quickens our spirit of understanding. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.  8)

Arc
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 12:52:41 PM by Arcturus »
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daywalker

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2010, 01:55:43 PM »


For BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT, I always reference this section from one of Ray's letters:

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm

TV ANALOGY

Here is an analogy that is applicable and easy to understand: God's spirit gives life to the body. Only in life does a man have consciousness or sensation. When God takes back His spirit, the body and soul are dead.

Picture a TV console as representing the human BODY with all its intricate circuitry and components.

Now picture ELECTRICITY as the invisible, powerful force representing God's life-giving SPIRIT.

Picture the blank PICTURE TUBE as representing the SOUL.

Without the electricity (God's spirit), the TV and picture tube (body and soul) are dead. All the time I hear preachers talking about our souls and our spirits as if they were one and the same. Soul and spirit are not one and the same.

Next plug in the electricity (God's spirit). The TV comes to life, and we see the picture tube (soul) animated. We see color, sound, dancing, singing, talking, intelligent conversations, all live via satellite. The dead TV becomes a living, visible, animated, intelligent entity-"Soul." But notice very carefully, the Soul (the animated picture in the TV tube) is not one of the original components. It is not a component in and by itself, but is rather the result of two other vital components, Body and Spirit (the TV console and electricity).

At bedtime I sometimes tell my daughter to give the TV a rest. When one turns off the "on/off" switch the TV goes to "sleep." The power light is still on, but the TV is blank and silent.

But now, pull the plug and take away the electricity (spirit) and what happens to the TV console (body)? It dies. It's just a box of circuits. Not even the power light is on anymore. If left unplugged it will, in time, decay and return to the dust of the ground.

And what happens to the colorful animated picture on the screen (soul) when we take away the electricity (spirit)? Want the real answer? Ask a child. Let several children watch TV together, then pull the plug and ask them where the picture went? A child will shrug his shoulders or say "I don't know" or say "It disappeared." Guess what? He is Scripturally correct on all three counts.

Without spirit there is no life and no consciousness. Without power a TV has no life and no animated picture. It's dead.

If you were to ask an ancient Hebrew person what happens to the soul (the thinking, feeling, animated, sentient personality of a man) at death, he would shrug his shoulders or say "who knows" or just say "it disappears." That's what "Sheol" meant to the Hebrews. It was a question mark. And the Greeks had their word for the same idea (Hades-the UNSEEN, the IMPERCEPTIBLE), and hades and sheol are synonymous in Scripture (Acts 2:27).

There is one more profound Scriptural truth that is also perfectly analogous to the operation of a TV, and that is this. Picture God's Throne as the Broadcast Headquarters. The TV picture Tube, by itself, is not the source or originator of the picture it portrays on the screen. It is a channel for the signal transmitted from the TV Station and Tower. It can only manifest and portray on its screen that which is sent from the source [God]. And often the source [God] uses intermediaries like satellites [Angels] to relay the signals.

In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.



Daywalker  8)
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wisdom

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2010, 06:12:17 PM »

Mharrell08 forgive me if I seemed to rush members for a response that wasn't my intent at all. I thank you for your response it has helped me, particularly your P.S.
Also I thank arcturus and daywalker for their responses, I am very grateful. May God continue to bless us all and continue to reveal his truths to us, amen.
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Dave UK

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2010, 06:18:59 PM »

Hi
Excellent post.I have pondered these two scriptures for quite some time, and now it makes sense.
Dave
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2010, 07:58:26 PM »

I also like the 'color' analogy.  Blue (body) + Yellow (spirit) = Green (Soul).  There's no green without both yellow and blue.  That 1Thess. 5:23 mentions all three is no more a 'proof' of the alleged 'triune nature' of man than the fact that Blue, Yellow and Green exist as descriptive words about particular colors.

Given that both of your recent posts were about (roughly) the same subject, and that links to study had already been provided, I personally figured you either had not given them enough thought/meditation or were (as it turns out) involved in a debate with somebody.  This is just ME talking, but I've grown a little weary of debating with people who aren't even here. 

If he or she WERE here, I'd tell him I used to believe in a "triune man".  I thought I was onto something.  Now, nobody can even convince me it's important, much less true.  Humanity is much less complex and ""interesting"" than Theology can teach, no matter how drunk they might make us first.   :D

Just a side note:  I'm only speaking for myself here, but even though I am a moderator, I don't think that means I know more than anybody else.  It also doesn't make me (or make me FEEL) like a member of the 'clergy'.  This is a web-forum.  I just help moderate it.


Do good.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2010, 09:37:43 PM »


Hi Wisdom,

Whenever someone throws a Scripture at you and says it means this, that or the other, remember that it is the "sum" of God's word that is truth.

Psa 119:160  The sum of thy word is truth...

The whole Bible is in perfect harmony, for those that have eyes to see it will fit together and every Scripture supports the others. You always need a second witness in the Scriptures to prove any truth and here is an excerpt on this.

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm -------

TRUTH NUMBER 6

[A] "…that in the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES every word may be established" (Matt. 18:16).

"…In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (II Cor. 13:1).

[C] "And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES…" (Rev. 11:3).

This particular law of Scripture is constantly violated. We are to have at least a second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine.

Unfortunately, the Church does not follow this truth of God in establishing doctrine.
------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2010, 05:05:04 AM »

Quote
"…In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES

2Co 13:1  This is the THIRD time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. Mat 18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there am I ~ "IN MY Name" ~ in the midst of them.
2Co 13:2  I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were PRESENT, THE SECOND TIME: and being ABSENT NOW I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
2Co 13:3  Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
2Co 13:4  For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
2Co 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU…


Jesus Christ is in you...We know what being in His Name means...as written in the Book of Life...His Life :)

Arc
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 05:12:55 AM by Arcturus »
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markn902

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2010, 09:50:27 PM »

I guess I am ignorant but I just don't see what is complicated about this verse? I am reading it out of youngs (online) and so what am I missing here? to me it sounds like Gods reckoning can pierce every single bit of what we are (duh). He can read our minds and our hearts basically there is nothing we can hide from Him. I am certainly not trying to belittle the OP for his question as I have certainly  posted scripture here that seemed to hit me as if there was something there I was missing. and I will certainly post in the future scriptures that hit me like that as well. I love this forum and the love I've been shown here from members has been incredible. I just wonder what I am missing here is this a "trigger" scripture that people (not talking about OP) use to start some sort of debate?  
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 09:51:37 PM by markn902 »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: heb 4:12???
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2010, 12:00:15 AM »

Hey Mark.

We all have (or have had) pet doctrines and Idols of the heart.  Lord knows I've had them and surely still do.  It's painful and humiliating at times to have them crushed, and can even be disorienting.  But that's a big part of the house we've built on the sand falling down.  When we see the blessing of having that house fall, we can rejoice at the prospect that "...GREAT is the fall of it".   Mat 7:27  We'd all still be believing in hell if the fall weren't great.

So, yeah, I think we can come across scripture that seems to prop up what we've been taught or whatever and latch onto the part that 'proves' what we believe, despite the rest of scripture (which does not contradict) and the spiritual meaning of the scripture we're reading.

I suppose a man could read  1Corinthians 13:3 and see 'proof' that we're supposed to cremate the dead.  But is that what Spirit of God through Paul is teaching?  Are there other witnesses?  Are there Spiritual matches?  No.  Because the verse is talking about LOVE, not burning bodies.

OK...now let the debate begin about whether we are supposed to bury or cremate.   ;D

I'm very glad we have a God and Lord who's Word CAN open us up like a two-edged sword.  Let the debate begin about whether the sword is curved or straight.  ;)

We're going to be OK.

Are we done here?
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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