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God, the Father
G. Driggs:
The only thing Im sure of is that Jesus is worthy of worship, but Im having second thoughts about praying to Him after reading everything in this thread and a few other things from Ray's papers. It seems like I'm back to square one again. Gosh just when I thought I had this figured out. ??? I know that we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, but what exactly does that mean? What does "in the name of Jesus" mean? Is this a phrase Im to repeat over and over again during prayer to the Father? Or does it mean so much more? From what Ray has said in his papers I know that the name of Jesus means a lot, and it stands for (among other things) Who He is, what He has done, and what He is gonna do. He is God, Jehovah-Savior, Elohim (God Family), He created everything by the will of the Father, and He will save the whole world, He is everything His Father is, yet He says His Father is greater, which I believe and understand. I have heard and read many times that everything is done through Jesus, and no one can come to the Father except by Jesus and that Jesus said He did not consider it to be robbing the Father to be called His equal because the Father has freely given His Son these things. I guess I do not understand this as well as I thought. I think about all those who prayed to and worshiped Jesus in the OT, was this just a type/shadow of worshiping the Father? I mean do we now have to make a switch from worshiping and praying to Jesus, to praying and worshiping the Father? Not that this would be a problem for me, I guess I just want to do the right thing. I guess what I really want to know is, what the heck are you all talking about? What is the main point of everything being said here? What did I miss?
Forgive me, but these are sincere questions, and it is not my intent to start an debate or argument over who is right or wrong. I know I have been wrong many times, and I probably will be again. Maybe this is something only God can reveal to me? If so, no problem, I will wait. :)
Good questions Judy, I pray for patience for those who might answer us.
Peace, G.Driggs
Kat:
Luke 11:1 Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples."
v. 2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
v. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
v. 4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."
Here are a few things that I think is pertinent to this topic.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4433.msg34087.html#msg34087 ---
Dear Wendy:
The Name of the God of the Old Testament is "Yahweh/Jehovah." Also "I AM WHO I AM."
In the New Testament Jesus never called His Father by any Name, Just "Father." No man has ever seen or heard the voice of God the Father of Jesus Christ, hence the "God" of the Old Testament is the Word or Spokesman for God, Jesus the Christ (John 1:1-3). But, as Jesus and His Father "ARE ONE" (John 10:30), we cannot exclude One from the Other no matter Which is speaking or performing.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html --------------
"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
Let me be perfectly clear, logical, and Scriptural on this matter:
One plus one plus one DOES NOT equal one!
One God plus one God plus one God DOES NOT equal one God!
One third of a God plus one third of a God plus one third of a God DOES NOT equal one whole God!
The Holy Spirit of God cannot also be that same God! ANYTHING that is either "from" or "of" something ELSE cannot also "BE" that something else no matter what or who it is!
A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!
Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:
"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!
Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.
Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.
Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.
In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.
I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
And the next verse says
"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)
I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.
If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!
The above verse really doesn’t need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.
How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."
Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"
Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God’s definition far easier and better than the theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!
Jesus Christ said,
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!
And again:
"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."
v
There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.
http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm ------------------------------
Jesus Christ and His Father ARE ONE! What does that mean? Has God not given us other examples of how two can be ONE? A husband and wife in union ARE ONE, yet they are individuals. The Son is the VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. That is Scriptural. God manifested HIMSELF to His Creation SONWISE or SONLY. The Son can be seen, the Father CANNOT BE SEEN. John tells us that we will see Jesus AS HE IS. I know of NO Scripture that tells us that we will ever see the Father (do you?). We pray TO the Father IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ, through the spirit OF God--Both the Father and the Son have the SAME SPIRIT! That the KJV uses the personal pronoun "he" is hardly justification for making the Holy Spirit the third member of triune God.
The relationship between the Son and the Father are mentioned over and over and over again in the Scriptures. NOT ONCE do the Scriptures speak of a relationship between the Son and the Father and The Holy Spirit.
I have little interest in the trinity theory. I merely wrote a paper on it because people often ask. The one negative I do see in the theory, however, is that a trinity is in effect a "closed Godhead." Yet, the Scriptures plainly tell us that WE TOO CAN BECOME MEMBERS OF THE VERY FAMILY (not trinity) OF GOD. If we could become members of the 'trinity' then by the very nature of words and their meanings, the trinity WOULD CEASE TO EXIST! Think about it.
We too, mankind, also, like God, have a spirit. Our spirit, however, is NOT A SECOND PERSON! If I am with you 'in spirit' then I AM WITH YOU. My spirit is NOT SOMEONE ELSE! Nor is it an ADDITION to me. Without MY spirit I would not exist. Without GOD'S spirit, GOD WOULD CEASE TO EXIST--GOD IS SPIRIT!!! God communicates and operates throughout the whole universe by HIS spirit. We TOO partake of this same spirit, but not through a third person of a trinity.
Jesus Christ told His disciples before His departure:
"Now, whenever the consoler [Gk: 'parakletos '= BESIDE - CALLer] which I shall be sending you [notice that Christ is the Sender, but FROM the Father], that will be testifying concerning Me" (John 15:26).
Now notice this:
"But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, THE CONSOLER WILL NOT BE COMING TO YOU." (John 16:7).
Why? If the Holy Spirit as a third person of a triune trinity is what God's spirit really is, then WHY would Jesus have to depart before IT could come if IT is a separate individual FORM Jesus?
What or Who is this "comforter?" Is it the third personality of a triune God? Let's read it:
"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit OF truth [Christ is TRUTH. He said "I am THE TRUTH"]..." (John 16:13).
"That will be glorifying Me, seeing that OF MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE is it getting, and will be informing you" (John 16:14-15).
Whatever is coming to comfort His Apostles after He is gone is something that is OF CHRIST that the Father GAVE TO HIM. Did the Father give to Christ the third person of the trinity???
Now John 16:27-28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:
"...seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD [out from beside God]. I CAME OUT FROM the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am LEAVING THE WORLD and am going TO THE FATHER."
After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again in THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:
"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).
Back to John:
"Remain IN ME. I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).
We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:
"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).
And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. But specifically HOW? And why must Jesus go away first?
Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH. Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.
Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'? God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it? I John 2:1:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!
There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!
When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere!
"Hereby know ye the SPIRIT OF GOD: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God" (I John 4:2).
"Hereby know we that WE DWELL IN HIM, and HE IN US, because He hath given us OF [genitive--OF] His spirit" (Verse 13).
It is JESUS CHRIST Who comes IN OUR FLESH. To deny that it is JESUS CHRIST Who comes in our flesh is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.
CHRIST is our comforter. CHRIST leads us into all Truth. It is CHRIST in us the hope of glory. CHRIST is the parakletos. And this is all accomplished by the spirit OF God which the Father gave also to Christ and so we have the spirit of both the Son and the Father making its home IN US, not a third person of a fabled trinity!
OF COURSE Jesus Christ is God. He is the VERY IMAGE, THE EXPRESS IMAGE, OF THE INVISIBLE GOD HIMSELF--and that makes Christ GOD. And Jesus and His Father ARE ONE and they operate through ONE SPIRIT--THEIR spirit, not some OTHER person of a trinity.
Sincerely,
Ray
GinaMilan:
Dear G. Driggs:
You ask good questions. I want to lighten your load a little. Here are a few scriptural examples of praying to Jesus (there are many):
Acts 7
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep. (And that reminds me of how Ray says that he falls to sleep thanking God for all of his blessings -- he starts with his pillow, then his bed, then his wife and kids, so on and so forth.)
1 Tim. 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.
Rev 22:20 Even so, come Lord Jesus.
You can thank the Father ("I thank you Father that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to the babes") and petition the Father because you have been given the spirit of Jesus Who Himself is the Son of God, and as a son of God the Father by adoption, you can, by (in) that same spirit as a son, also pray to the Father saying, "Abba, Father!" (Our Father, which art in heaven, give us this day our daily Bread (Jesus)...)
You can thank Jesus and petition Jesus. There are many examples, you can think of lots, I'm positive.
I can think of one in particular where the woman was crying after Jesus for help with her daughter -- that was an example of a petitioning prayer to Jesus.
When Jesus healed the lepers and only one came back to thank Him, that was a prayer of thankfulness.
I think it's important to thank Jesus -- He has done so much for us, why wouldn't we want to thank Him; God the Father would not frown on that.
I found this when I did a search for "should we pray to Jesus or the Father":
" 1. Christ is the "one in charge" of everything that affects my spiritual life (1 Corinthians 15:27), but I can't talk to him?
2. Christ is the Head of the body of which I am a member, but I can't talk to Him?
3. Christ is the Vine in which I am a branch (John 15:1-8), from Whom I derive all of my spiritual sustenance, but I can't talk to Him?
4. Christ is the King of the kingdom of which I am a citizen, but I can't talk to the King?
5. Christ is the Captain of my salvation (Hebrews 2:10), but I can't talk to my Captain?
6. Christ is my Brother (Hebrews 2:11), but I can't talk to my Brother?
7. Christ is my High Priest (Hebrews 3:1) He offered Himself for my sins, He is touched with all of the feelings of my infirmities (Hebrews 4:15), and is over the house of God of which I am a part (Hebrews 10:21), but I can't talk to my High Priest? (1 Timothy 2:5).
8. Christ is my Physician (Luke 5:31), but I can't talk to my Physician?
9. Christ is the Bishop of my soul(1 Peter 2:25), but I can't talk to my Bishop?
10. Christ is the Bridegroom of the church (His bride)(2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:22-33, but the bride can't talk to the bridegroom?
11. Christ is my "Counselor" (Isaiah 9:6), but I can't talk to my Counselor?
12. Christ is my Friend (John 15:14-15), but I can't talk to my Friend?
13. Christ is the "Great Shepherd of the sheep" (Hebrews 13:20), of which I am one, but I can't talk to my Shepherd?
14. Christ is the "Minister of the sanctuary" (Hebrews 8:2), of which I am a part, but I cannot talk to my Minister(servant)? Why, it is amazing to even contemplate! It is much more logical as well as abundantly Scriptural to "TELL IT TO JESUS."
Aren't those marvelous, G. Driggs? (I'm not going to post the link, since I don't think there's a copyright on these questions and answers. ;))
Last but not least: When Saul was struck down on the road to Damascus, Jesus said - Why are you persecuting Me? And when Saul responded, to Whom did he respond? Jesus or the Father?
Yes, I think we can pray to both. Try not to let it worry you. I hardly think the Father would forbid you to speak to your own Brother.
Love to you, G. Driggs.
Gina
p.s. Judy, I'm praying for you to have an answer to your prayers. Love to you, too.
margo:
I just want to thank you all so much, ALL OF YOU, for these truths and loving the WORD OF GOD. I am just a sponge here.
This is amazing.
Love to you all,
Margo
judith collier:
Thanks Gina and Kat, just wanted to make sure. I actually wanted that to be the answer. I forget sometimes that Jesus is the Mediator and understands us totally as human, Him having been so but without sin.
Where is that vs. 'He who loves Me, my Father in Heaven will love him and I will manifest myself to him" That's where the confusion came from because of a little word----I-----.
When I had a vision once many yrs. ago and saw for a few seconds the Majesty of God I thought it was the Father but now I see that mistake.
That vs. spoke volumes to me afterwards and at the time there wasn't any confusion but yrs. later there was because thinking back I wasn't sure exactly WHO that Majesty was. Did I go back to that vs., NO, Stupid, YES. Maybe more ignorant because of lack of scripture training use wherby i could have corrected it and a priest telling me that only saints had this happen and wanting to send me to the Bishop. Then I was really afraid because all I could think of was martydom. I never went.
By the way, I think Jesus gave me that because of my horrible situation which I wasn't prepared to handle nor did i have anyone else who could have stood up to my questioning. I wanted the truth and nothing else would have done it for me. This fact of His great mercy has never ceased to amaze me. I mean me. Why would he have given this to me who is no more than anyone else. So many people suffering and he came to me. My little normal life had nothing to give Him, nobody believed me anyway, so, i was alone again but hanging on to Him by a thread because of this ignorance. That vs, would have answered that question WHY also, because I did always love Him. Judy
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