Cause of the Physical and Spiritual

[judith collier]

Maybe someone could direct me to a writing of Ray's if there is one on this subject. O.K. If God is the catalyst of the cause behind all things physical and spiritual then he knows what will happen. I believe this. Now, these earth shattering happenings, the narural ones are bothering me. Man made I understand. It's the natural I am having trouble with.
If for say hurricanes wiped out thousands of people and they have, then God is the original cause, right? Then God WANTED this to happen or He would never had created it in the first place?? Nobody can dare say He can't control His creation. My mind cannot wrap around these seemingly opposing views of God.
It isn't like we sinning machines took the ball and ran with it and created a mess but rather God is ENTIRELY responsible for the natural. God wanted thousands to die which is ok with me if this is true, I mean He is God. Is this just something we will never understand or do we give any importance to the reasons people come up with why God would create this in the first place??
Judy
 

[Kat]

Hi Judy,

One way to think about it, is that everybody is going to die one way are the other. Now I know that a traumatic death is not something to be desired, but we know that most are not going to die a peaceful death while sleeping. Is it the actual cessation of so many lives at once, in one of these natural disasters, that is so troubling?

We know we all must die, that is how things are set to be at this time and God has created numerous ways for that to happen. But do understand God has also made it so the human body can take only so much, we would either pass out or we will die and have no more misery. God is merciful and has made us so that there is a limit to what any human can suffer. So He is NOT like what the Christian church teach, a God who will send most to a torturous hell of pain to suffer for ETERNITY! That is what is so hard for me to understand, that people believe, even feel some deserve THAT. Just some of my thoughts on how I think on this that I thought I would share.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lauriellen]

hi judy,
i have been pondering the same subject ever since someone introduced me to the doctrine of 'open theism'....they basically believe God knows 'some' of what is in the future, but leaves much of the future 'open' to many different possibilities, therefore, the 'whole' future isn't knowable, even for God....which i think is just a bunch of crap....(sorry ).....but after having a long discussion with this person, their main problem is accepting the fact that God is INDEED responsible for all......i must confess, although i know it is true, that God IS working ALL, i still find it hard to reconcile in my mind a 'loving' God with all the sufferring i see around me....i know that it may be impossible for me to fully grasp with my human-carnal mind....God's thinking is so far above ours, i fully trust in Him that it is all for the good, it is all necessary, it all has a purpose. i think we must walk by 'faith' not by sight....we can't trust what we physically see, feel or hear, we must keep our 'spiritual eyes' & 'spiritual ears' & spiritual hearts open only to God.

[aqrinc]

Hi Judy,

Based on Scripture, GOD Is The Causer of everything; funny you bring up this subject. I was discussing this very thing with my Mom today, (JW) she says GOD Did not make anything evil. Well If GOD made everything through Jesus Christ, and there is nothing made that was not made by HIM.

From our perspective it is horrible, but our perspective is looking up out of a mud hole; GOD'S Perspective Is growing up and training sons and daughters, and HE Is The Expert, not us by a long stretch. So using The Faith Given to us and proving that we trust HIM even to the death, is how we can start to understand this whole thing.

Joh 1:1-5 (CLV)
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. "
2 This was in the beginning toward God.

3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."
4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not."

Those Scriptures above claim everything was made By GOD, through Christ Jesus, do we believe man or Scripture.

Rom 3:1-7 (GNB)
1  Do the Jews then have any advantage over the Gentiles? Or is there any value in being circumcised?
2  Much, indeed, in every way! In the first place, God trusted his message to the Jews.

3  But what if some of them were not faithful? Does this mean that God will not be faithful?
4  Certainly not! God must be true, even though all human beings are liars. As the scripture says, "You must be shown to be right when you speak; you must win your case when you are being tried."

5  But what if our doing wrong serves to show up more clearly God's doing right? Can we say that God does wrong when he punishes us? (This would be the natural question to ask.)

6  By no means! If God is not just, how can he judge the world?
7  But what if my untruth serves God's glory by making his truth stand out more clearly? Why should I still be condemned as a sinner?

george .

[GinaMilan]

Hi, Judy

Kat and George  and lauriellen gave great replies.  I haven't got much else to add but I thought of Job.  I was totally fascinated that it is God who pointed out Job to Satan.  

It was God who put Satan in the Garden of Eden.  Did the same thing happen with Eve that happened with Job?  (So, have you considered my servant, Eve?  "Does she fear God for nothing?")

And remember what happened after all the blows came down and God got in Job's face?

Job: 42


1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.


And do you remember how Ray said something to the effect that it wasn't until he really had nothing else to repent of that he knew of (repentance is also a gift of God) that God began to open his eyes to these spiritual truths?

So then I look and see what Job says:



5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine [spiritual] eye seeth thee. (In other words, Job's saying, "Wow, before any of those horrible things happened to me, I'd really only heard of You, but now I see You!"

6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

And of course we recall how the Lord caused Job to pray for his, uh, "comforters," and blessed Job more in the end.

James 5: 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

And yet it is God Who will make you endure.  Did God bring us this far just to leave us now?  I don't think so.  I believe that the end of the Lord is very pitiful and tender mercy, but man when we're caught up in the thick of it, it's terrifying.  Well, it sure makes the power and love and mercy of God stand out in contrast in the end, doesn't it?

I hope that helps a little, my sister (the joint in the knuckle of the toe that is me).  

[judith collier]

Thanks All. Well, after reading Job which I haven't done in awhile I think I will just shut my mouth.
As to those who appear to know the answers to Why disasters happen (and boy do they come out of the closet after such an event) I never know who to believe so I wil just put that question on the shelf too.
Like Kat said maybe death is not as horrible as we think it is. I remember when my mother-in-law was dying, the hospice nurse told us what to expect. She said after awhile God takes over. He must. After a time her breathing got further apart and then it just stopped. Not too bad.
And a friendly old bartender I worked with said to me after the death of a close relative, "God giveth and God taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord." True humility.
I forget sometimes the magnitude of God. I wish I could experience His majesty again like I once did for a few seconds, boy will that keep you in line. No questions asked there let me tell you.
Judy

[Deborah-Leigh]

I did not realize then, what I realize now since you opened this discussion Judy.

WE are SO Blessed AND privilaged, to be among those elected by God to know and to BELIEVE, trust and hope in Jesus Christ.

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Not everyone believes.

Act 23:8  For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

I can't understand suffering. I don't think we are meant to try to understand it. Handle it, be trained by it, endure, bear, undergo and overcome it ...yes but understand it...

..I am so grateful that I can hope in life in Christ and those tears  will be turned to tears of joy.

1Co 15:19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

I could relate to the above Scripture only after God brought me to my knees in an abject poverty of suffering.  Just thinking that there is life in the intense fear, hurt and suffering that presented itself in my life, gave me hope in a time of acute darkness where the awareness that there is life after death, gave me something to look forward to. Holding on to the thought that there is a better life where love will not be crushed, maimed, discarded or destroyed gave hope to look ahead at that life beyond this one in which there will be no more tears. We endure this life for the hope of the life to come.

We are to also "overcome the world" just as Jesus did. Not by ourselves, but by Jesus "Christ IN us, the hope of GLORY." L Ray Smith LOF 8 – TO HIM THAT OVERCOMES.

........ concerning the word "overcometh" in the KJV. Notice that it is not in the past, as in "has overcome" or "overcame." It is in the Greekaorist tense. It shows a CONTINUING ACTION. L Ray Smith LOF 8 – FROM GLORY TO GLORY

But always remember that there is a promise attached to this suffering:

"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: If we suffer, we shall also REIGN WITH HIM.." (11 Tim. 2 : 11-12) L Ray Smith LOF 8

Maybe someone could direct me to a writing of Ray's if there is one on this subject.

Check out:

LOF 10 - A FEW OF THE EVILS THAT GOD USES IN SAVING THE WORLD
LOF 2 – WHENCE SATAN THE DEVIL

If for say hurricanes wiped out thousands of people and they have, then God is the original cause, right?

Right.

Then God WANTED this to happen or He would never had created it in the first place??

It is natural to make that deduction but it is not as I believe our God is. Why?

"By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens: His HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SPERPENT" (Job 26: 13) God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His "hand" – at ARMS LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND  SPIRIT. L Ray Smith LOF 2 – WHENCE SATAN THE DEVIL?

......why God would create this in the first place??

God is making children into the Image and likeness of His Son Jesus Christ. The process hurts. By contrast, the most grievous hurt and pain is considered a light affliction compared to the far more exceeding glory that God is working for us.  

2Co 4:17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

Is this just something we will never understand or do we give any importance to the reasons people come up with

Having the answers is not all we need. We need superabundantly, far over and above all that we dare ask or think, beyond our highest prayers desires, thoughts, hopes or dreams...Eph 3 :20

WHAT WE NEED IS

Eph 3 : 19 {That you, I, WE, may REALLY COME } to know [practically, through experience for yourselves/ourselves] the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience]  ~ 1 Cor 13 : 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and UNDERSTAND all mysteries, and all KNOWLDEGE, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I AM NOTHING ~that you/I, WE may be filled [through all your/my/our being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself...(Amplified Version)

That is what we need.  

Blessings to you
Arc

[GinaMilan]

Hi again

You have started a flood of thoughts in me.  I hope they'll lift you up and all who read this post.

As to those who appear to know the answers to Why disasters happen (and boy do they come out of the closet after such an event) I never know who to believe so I wil just put that question on the shelf too.

I notice the order of the events -- I think this is fascinating:

Ecclesiastes 3

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3  A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4  A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

. . .

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

I notice in those verses that it is a "season" and a "time" not an "eternity"; but in times of war it sure feels like it, doesn't it!  Whew~

But I also notice the order of these things and that it all ends in peace.  (And there was a great calm.)

Matthew 8:26  And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

I know that Job repented because he realized he didn't know why these things were taking place, but that didn't mean God wouldn't reveal these things to him / us.   Like Ray, Job's repentance was only the precursor to God opening up Job's eyes to fully understand.  

Luke 12:2 -- There is nothing so covered that will not be revealed, or hid that will not be  known[/i].

Like Kat said maybe death is not as horrible as we think it is. I remember when my mother-in-law was dying, the hospice nurse told us what to expect. She said after awhile God takes over. He must. After a time her breathing got further apart and then it just stopped. Not too bad.

I'm sorry, Judy.  I've never seen anyone close to me actually die.  That must have been very, very difficult.  

....I forget sometimes the magnitude of God. I wish I could experience His majesty again like I once did for a few seconds, boy will that keep you in line.

I do remember when my nephew Jesse was dying (he was 16 and had cystic fibrosis), it was extremely humbling for me.  I knew that will be me one day.  And I thought of Ray  and how he said to someone, "Free will yourself out of that."  I was like frozen with fear and in awe.  And I was devastated when he actually died.   As for me, the whole experience made me so angry (not completely like Job's wife angry, but dangerously close.)   I was just smoldering.  I thought, man, God!  You are weird!  Why this disease?  Why Jesse? WHY!  (Ya know?  I was freaked out.)

Isaiah 42:3:  A bruised reed He will not break, and a dimly burning wick He will not quench; He will bring forth justice in truth.

Matthew 12:20  A bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering (dimly burning) wick He will not quench, till He brings justice and a just cause to victory.

(After Jesse died, my sister told me this story about Jesse when he was two:  After a strong earthquake in Big Bear, my sister was rocking him to sleep, but she was really shaky after the quake (7.4 on the Richter and she was on top of the epicenter), and every creek and little rattle would make her jumpy.  She was telling me how Jesse detected how nervous she was, and Jesse (two years old, barely able to form a sentence) looks up at Patty and clear as DAY said to her:  "Jesus is here and He will pick you up.")

No questions asked there let me tell you.

And now, my flooded thoughts are now of when Jesus said, ask and keep on asking, seek and keep on seeking, knock and keep on knocking.  I ran a search on Biblegateway for the word "knock" and this what came up.  It's interesting in that my search starts out with scripture in Solomon where "Beloved"  (Christ) is knocking and the search ends with Him knocking.  I just think that is fascinating.  I never noticed that before.  (Have I lost you yet?  Wake up, Wake up!   haha)  

Song of Solomon 5:2  I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved [Christ] that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night.

And yet, we are told by Christ to knock.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Luke 11:9  And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Luke 11:10  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

But I believe it is the Lord knocking (or working in us to will to ask, seek, and knock):

Luke 12:36  And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Revelation 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

And a friendly old bartender I worked with said to me after the death of a close relative, "God giveth and God taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord." True humility.

That's true!

Ecc. 3:10 God gives to humanity an experience of evil to humble him by it. (CLV)

But again, I notice the order of this verse:

Deu. 32:39  I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal:  - and that's the order of it. ( Death is swallowed UP in victory.)

1 Corinthians 13:12  (Amp) For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [ by God].

John 17:3 And this is life eonian [that life we're seeking], that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Love to you and yours, Judy!  (I have a sister named Judy!)
Gina

[Phil3:10]

Judy,
You have some wonderful responses to your questions concerning GOD being behind all things both physical and spiritual. HE is because HE alone knows all. When I see the devastation and pain caused by an earthquake, hurricane or any other natural disaster, I ask the same questions.  I am sure most of mankind does and has from the beginning.  GOD is the creator of ever thing from the smallest virus to the vastness of the universe. What ever HE wants to occur in HIS creation is up to HIM. In my limited knowledge, I cannot question HIS reasons.
I do think Arcturus hit the nail on the head with the word overcometh.  We who know GOD, have been called by HIM, and seek to love and serve HIM have the calm assurance that HE has promised us something so good that our human minds will never be able to understand. I do believe that suffering, just as JESUS had to suffer, will prepare us for the promises that our LORD makes. I believe all is of GOD and all HE causes, whether natural or spiritual, has a reason.
We have no promise that overcoming will be easy and all history vividly points this out. Perhaps, those that suffer, that die an early death, from natural causes are much better off than we who survive. I often think, if their is no pain in death and the next step is judgement, why is death so bad. Evil, pain, suffering and death will always be an experience mankind must endure. What we should glory in is HIS promises if we endure.
HE is so big and we are so small. My only hope is HIS love for all.
In HIM who is in total control,
Phil3:10

[lauriellen]

gina, that was beautiful....thanks for sharing that...loved all the responses! =)

[GinaMilan]

You're very, very welcome, Lauriellen.   (I put that up there with you in mind, as well.) 

Gina

Psalm 30:5 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Gina

Some thoughts inspsired from your observations.

The door...

Rev 3:8  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:

Deu. 32:39  I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal:  - and that's the order of it.

To confirm the order you are illustrating and the importance thereof:

TRUTH NUMBER 1

[A] "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).
"It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]..." (I Cor. 15:44).
[C] "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY..." (Phil. 3:21).
[D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12).
The sequence of God's plan of salvation for mankind is most important—First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.
Without the knowledge of this principle of Scripture, it is impossible to understand what man is and what is his destiny.

Ref TWELVE GOD GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD L Ray Smith

Blessings to you

Arc

[GinaMilan]

Precisely.  Thanks, Arc.

[Marlene]

First, I want to say this post has been so good .  I have often felt things like you do Judy.

Gina, your talking about your nephew has made me think of these verses.

Matthew Chapter 18 verses 1-4
1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2. And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them.
3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

When, we become adults it seems the things of life get in the way. We try and control things. Little children just trust. Now, we have to come back and become as little children. Knowing, he knows what is best for us even if we do not like it. 

These verses help me, when I struggle with trials and see others hurting.
Matthew Chapter 11 28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke unpon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

It is really humbling that it is all his work. Even, our coming to him like little children is his work. We prefer to try and handle things ourself and that is a disaster.  So, much to be learned from little children. That, is why we were all little children. They often seem old for there young years. Where, we become grown in our life in the physical and forget who our true Father really is. We forget we don't control anything and that we need him for everything.

Gina, you are so right. He not only causes us to knock and seek. But, he opens the door because we are little children who depend on him for our every need.

So, every thing we experience in this physical leads us to the Spiritual. Like it or not.

In His Love,
Marlene

[GinaMilan]

Marlene, this is a great observation that I hadn't noticed till you pointed it out, so thank you.

He not only causes us to knock and seek. But, he opens the door because we are little children who depend on him for our every need.

Gina

[judith collier]

There are times when we post a reply that we wonder if we were of any help. Or maybe we don't and just rely on God's Word to do the work. His word doesn't come back void, right?
Arc, I will read those LOF series you mentioned. And from Paul to the Cor. 15:19 I have to give that some deserved time. I think I threw out the baby with the bath water upon learning when we die we are dead. Heaven seemed a million light yrs. away after that.
Ginna, it wasn't difficult seeing my mother-in-law die, I've seen a few in my time. It was much harder dealing with her in life. That might seem harsh but it is true. For over 30 yrs. I kept my tongue where it belonged. And yet, I was the one holding her hand and praying for her while the others talked in another room. I felt privileged actually, more because I was allowed by God to be with her, someone He obviously loved, as i could feel His love for her. It wasn't me, it was His Holy Spirit.
Phil3:10, there are things worse than death now that you mention it.
Gina, Matt.8:26, where Jesus rebuked the winds and the sea. hmm! I remember a neighbor doing that once, I don't know if she was a believer or not but we were having a conversation and the skys were having a field day when she pointed upwards and said with a voice of authority, QUIET! There was not another sound after that.
Marlene, you always are able to soften my heart. What you said about God even opening the door to our hearts. I needed that.
The effort everyone puts in here to help is amazing and healing. Sometimes it's like dying of thirst and everyone is carrying water for you to drink. That river of water flowing out of people here is truly life giving. Thanks, Judy