bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Johns Disciples  (Read 3742 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

galatians22067

  • Guest
Johns Disciples
« on: June 30, 2010, 11:54:30 AM »

I was hoping someone had something for the following :

Mat 9:14  Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not ?

I am a bit confused by this verse. John seemed to have his own disciples. What exactly was he teaching them ? It seems they were a seperate group from the Pharisees but its confusing to understand why his ministry seemed seperate from the disciples of Christ ?

Any help would be great !
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2010, 01:07:28 PM »

The parables are all one.  Revelation is all one. Ref HOW HARD IS GETTING SAVED L Ray Smith

If we apply the understanding shared by Ray, we can better comprehend the verse of Scripture you present.
 
Rom 8:5  For they who are according to the flesh mind the things of flesh, but they who are according to the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

We either see according to the flesh or according to the Spirit.

Remember that Jesus converted no one during His time on earth when He walked in the flesh.

Jesus Christ never converted a person in His whole ministry. Ref HOW HARD IS GETTING SAVED L Ray Smith


Ray often, through the insights he shares, exhorts us to see that there is one overall premise of the Scriptures. That is, many called and few chosen.


It is not surprising that Jesus was asked questions that showed the carnal, flesh view points of those who did not understand. They could not understand. They were not converted.

 Understanding comes only by the Spirit of God. L Ray Smith.  

This was according to the Design of God for our edification and exhortation that we be encouraged to comprehewnd  according to the Spirit not the flesh out of which Jesus was queried as to why his disciples did not fast.

It was not the only time that the disciples of John the Baptist approached Jesus with a query. :)

Arc
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 01:10:26 PM by Arcturus »
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2010, 04:08:29 PM »

I was hoping someone had something for the following :

Mat 9:14  Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not ?

I am a bit confused by this verse. John seemed to have his own disciples. What exactly was he teaching them ? It seems they were a seperate group from the Pharisees but its confusing to understand why his ministry seemed seperate from the disciples of Christ ?

Any help would be great !


John spoke of the purpose of his ministry:

John 1:19, 23, 26-27  This is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?...He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias....I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

John says his purpose is to point the way to the Lord. And he does that the next day with his own disciples:

John 1:35-37  the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! And the two disciples heard him [John] speak, and they followed Jesus.

John knew what his purpose was and taught his disciples this (John 3:27-36)...'He must increase, but I must decrease' [John 3:30]


Hope this helps,

Marques
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2010, 08:17:08 PM »


John knew He was "preparing the way" for the Messiah, though he did not know at first that Jesus was the one.

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jesus said there was no one born of a woman that was greater than John. It should not seem unusual that he had a following, as he had a very powerful message and many were drawn to him, as the Scripture states;

Mark 1:4  John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
v. 5  Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

John was there to "prepare the way for the Lord," (Isa 40:3) he seems to have filled a very special place between the old and the new, as he was the last of the OT prophets and was preparing the way for the Messiah, the new covenant.  And lived to see bare witness of the Messiah as I believe he did realize Christ was the Messiah at the end.

Luke 7:19  And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come or look we for another?
v. 20  When the men had come to Him, they said, "John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, "Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?"'
v. 21  And that very hour He cured many of infirmities, afflictions, and evil spirits; and to many blind He gave sight.
v. 22  Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.
v. 23  And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."

mercy, peace and love
Kat


Logged

Joel

  • Global Moderator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 801
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2010, 11:40:22 PM »

We have the FIRST coming of the Lord here.
John the baptist had the Spirit of God working with him from his mothers womb.
He was the the one to announce the first coming of the Lord as prophecy fortold.
Jesus said more than once in the Gospels, that his hour, or time was not yet. John 2:4 John 7:6
Even though Jesus did many miraculous works during his walk then, he didn't fullfill the position that the Jews looking for a messiah wanted Him to. As he is going to bring to pass at His SECOND coming.
Jesus as the SUFFERING servant, was missed by the people of that day, and John that could preach mightily under the anointing of the Holy Spirit was only human as anyone else.
Jesus's own brethren didn't believe in him. John 7:5
Its all of God, everything happened, and everyone did as God willed, as it always will be.
The disciples of John were following their present day Truth, and finally met the TRUTH in the flesh. :)
Joel
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2010, 12:04:55 PM »

John knew He was "preparing the way" for the Messiah, though he did not know at first that Jesus was the one.

That's not exactly right Kat. John did know who Christ was and what He came to do:

John 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb  of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:34-36
  (John speaking of Jesus) He [Jesus] whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


John was there to "prepare the way for the Lord," (Isa 40:3) he seems to have filled a very special place between the old and the new, as he was the last of the OT prophets and was preparing the way for the Messiah, the new covenant.  And lived to see bare witness of the Messiah as I believe he did realize Christ was the Messiah at the end.

Luke 7:19  And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come or look we for another?
v. 20  When the men had come to Him, they said, "John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, "Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?"'
v. 21  And that very hour He cured many of infirmities, afflictions, and evil spirits; and to many blind He gave sight.
v. 22  Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.
v. 23  And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

An interesting point of this passage is Jesus saying 'blessed is he who is not offended because of Me'. One of the Strong's definitions of 'offended' goes pretty well: to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey.

Remember, at this point, John had been locked away in prison because of King Herod [Lk 3:19-20]. Only after this predicament, do we read of John sending his disciples to ask of the Lord if He is the One. I believe this shows the progression of those who are called but not chosen. At first, in the confides of the wilderness, John is telling all of Jerusalem of the Christ who was to come. But after being persecuting for standing up in Truth to King Herod, he is now sending his brethren to inquire if the Lord is who He says He is.

As Christ said in the parable of the Sower [Matt 13], when seed falls on stony ground with no depth, after it springs up the Sun comes out and scorches the plant because it has no root. Christ explains this is those who hear the Word, with joy, but when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, he stumbles [Matt 13:21].


Thanks,

Marques
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2010, 12:22:27 PM »


Hi Marques,

Quote
Remember, at this point, John had been locked away in prison because of King Herod [Lk 3:19-20]. Only after this predicament, do we read of John sending his disciples to ask of the Lord if He is the One. I believe this shows the progression of those who are called but not chosen. At first, in the confides of the wilderness, John is telling all of Jerusalem of the Christ who was to come. But after being persecuting for standing up in Truth to King Herod, he is now sending his brethren to inquire if the Lord is who He says He is.

Thanks for that explanation, I think that sounds very likely.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Logged

GinaMilan

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2010, 01:30:15 PM »

I was hoping someone had something for the following :

Mat 9:14  Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not ?

I am a bit confused by this verse. John seemed to have his own disciples. What exactly was he teaching them ? It seems they were a seperate group from the Pharisees but its confusing to understand why his ministry seemed seperate from the disciples of Christ ?

Any help would be great !

Hello,

I think that is an excellent question. He told them that he must decrease and Jesus must increase.    I don't believe John was teaching them anything like heresy, such as the heresy that was found in the first verses of Isaiah 58.  Even Jesus said:

 Matt. 23: 1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

I'm going to give John the benefit of the doubt and say that he certainly was admonishing them to make straight the way of the Lord, Who came to do a different, much better kind of fast -- one that is pleasing to the Lord:
 

Isaiah 58:6
   "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
       to loose the chains of injustice
       and untie the cords of the yoke,
       to set the oppressed free
       and break every yoke?


But I believe, even though the bible doesn't directly say it, that the Pharisees put John's disciples up to the question in Matthew's Gospel account; perhaps they were infected with the leaven of the Pharisees?  I say that because it was only 3 verses earlier in verse 11 of Matt 9 that the Pharisees were hounding Jesus over his eating with "tax collectors" and "sinners."  But they apparently didn't hear Jesus' reply, or didn't believe his report:

vs. 13  "But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

However, in Luke's account of the Gospel, it appears it was the Pharisees who asked Jesus the question, not John's disciples:

Chapter 5:

30 And the Pharisees and their scribes murmured to His disciples, saying, "Wherefore are you eating and drinking with the tribute collectors and sinners?"

31 And answering, Jesus said to them [the pharisees and scribes], "Those who are sound have no need of a physician, but those who have an illness.

32 I have not come to call the just, but sinners, to repentance.

33 Yet they [the pharisees and scribes] said to Him, "The disciples of John are fasting frequently and are making petitions; likewise also those of the Pharisees; yet yours are eating and drinking."


Jesus, did in fact fast:

Matt. 4

1 Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the spirit to be tried by the Adversary.
2 And, fasting forty days and forty nights, subsequently He hungers.


John 4:34  "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

And He told his disciples that certain "demons" (sic)  didn't come out without prayer and fasting:

Matthew 17:21:  But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.  (This verse is not in the CLV, however)

Mark 9:29:  And He replied to them, This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer and fasting.  (In the CLV, "and fasting" is not in that verse.)

No physical rituals saves spiritually, but a physical fasting is not carnal or oppressive, necessarily, and even though we know that Jesus' words are "spirit," they're not spiritual when money and prayer are being spoken about, curiously enough (that's always the "real" deal!  haha!).  But it's how they, at that time, were fasting that Jesus said should be done in a way that wasn't like the "hypocrites" which do appear to men to be fasting, but really were only disguising their faces.

I hope that helps a little.

Again, great question!
Gina
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 05:46:18 PM by GinaMilan »
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2010, 03:08:12 PM »

SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

Matt. 17:21  and fasting
Mark 9:29      and fasting

The words ďand fastingĒ   are omitted by both the Sinaitic and Vatican Manuscripts. Inclusion of these words is therefore not scriptural. http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious.htm

Arc
Logged

margo

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2010, 12:17:34 PM »

Thanks Arc for the link.  This looks like a very good link to send those eyes that are not opened yet.
Margo
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2010, 04:10:00 PM »

Dear Margo

I appreciate that you are grateful for the edification and correction of the faulty insertion of words that are not in Godís Word and that you value the link to help deepen your knowledge of our God.

Blessings to you

Arc
Logged

daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2010, 09:53:24 PM »

No physical rituals saves spiritually, but a physical fasting is not carnal or oppressive, necessarily, and even though we know that Jesus' words are "spirit," they're not spiritual when money and prayer are being spoken about, curiously enough (that's always the "real" deal!  haha!).  But it's how they, at that time, were fasting that Jesus said should be done in a way that wasn't like the "hypocrites" which do appear to men to be fasting, but really were only disguising their faces.

I hope that helps a little.

Again, great question!
Gina


Hello Gina--

I'd have to respectfully disagree: fasting is indeed "carnal" and "oppressive" as it does nothing for a person, spiritually. Neither does physical circumcision, physical baptism, or observing the Jewish Sabbath. These are all physical "shadows" of spiritual things.

Secondly, you say that the words of Jesus are "not spiritual" when referring to "money and prayer" but that they're "the real deal" ...as if "spiritual" is UNreal ??? How are Jesus' teachings about money and prayer not "spiritual"? It's not the physical money that is "a root of all evil" but the greed and envy and thirst for power--all from within the human heart--that can be influenced by having lots of money. As for prayer, I just don't understand why you suggest that it's not spiritual?


Jesus didn't say "some of the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life", He said,

"The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."


If you could kindly explain what you meant, I would appreciate it, thank you.

Christopher.
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4147
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2010, 11:21:08 PM »

Chris, Gina's name is in black.  She's not currently a member of the forum and can't answer you. 

Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2010, 12:05:47 PM »

Hi Christopher

Gina can't answer you but she can read you. :)

I think your approach was better than mine.

Maybe Gina was just trying her best and expressing thoughts untrained in the diciplines of the Scriptures.

It had to hurt, yet she might be blessed never to make that mistake again. I prefer to think so. Gina did not have to leave. The mistakes we can make can be far bigger than
anything Gina may or may not have thought she did wrong.

We are all here to learn. It hurts to make mistakes and it cuts when we are exposed, chastised, circumsised in our hearts or being baptised by fire. It hurts, it doesn't kill us though.  :)

Arc

Logged

daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Johns Disciples
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2010, 09:00:02 PM »

Chris, Gina's name is in black.  She's not currently a member of the forum and can't answer you. 




Yea, I read her other post afterward. Sorry to see her go...
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.067 seconds with 28 queries.