bIBLICAL VERIFICATION: re: animals

[Duane]

In careful re-reading of "Exposing Those Who Contradict" (on printed page 96) Ecc. 3: 16-21 says:  "For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts ,(pets?)...as one dies, so does the other; yea, they ALL have one SPIRIT and man  has NO preeminence above the beasts (in death) for all is vanity.  ALL go to one place; all are of the dust,  and all return to dust again."

Our bodies and souls are in the grave until the resurrection but our SPIRITS are returned to God at death.  God owns and creates ALL living things.  Man has NO preminence over beasts-- as ALL SPIRITS return to God
at death.  (I am fully aware that Jesus didn't die for the "sins" of animals in preparation for Heaven.)

However, Ray writes "Beasts (animals) don't go to heaven or hell when they die."  (No Bible verse, as Ray usually writes after EACH declarative statement.) 

If all SPIRITS return to God at death, and heaven is not a PHYSICAL PLACE but rather a mental state prepared
by God, what is the harm or hurt in enjoying your favorite pet(s) in heaven?

[Dennis Vogel]

what is the harm or hurt in enjoying your favorite pet(s) in heaven?

Depends. Why do you enjoy your pet now? Is it because they are loyal and love you with no regard to your faults? Will you still have that desire (need) to be loved unconditionally (vanity?) in the next life?

A loyal dog almost worships it's owner. It gets all excited and dances around when it simply sees it owner. Would that be acceptable in the next life?

Perhaps God does have a place for our pets in the next life. I don't know.

[Linny]

I have pondered this myself but I do not see anything in that particular Scripture that answers the question.  It appears to me to be saying we all die, dust to dust, not that we all return to God.
The translations of vs. 21 are very different so I would like to study that one further.

At this point, unless someone can prove it to me by Scripture, I feel that we are the only creation that returns to God at the resurrection.

[Duane]

Dennis....THANK YOU for your honest "I don't know"! 
This FORUM just boosted it's credability with me 1000% with that honest answer--where OTHER
pastor, teacher, sages would have resorted to some "cock and bull" just to HAVE AN ANSWER!
(Honesty goes a loooong way!)

HOWEVER, Ray made a declarative statement where he FLAT OUT stated "that animals would neither go to heaven or hell".  That is NOT like Ray to omit a scripture after a statement meant as fact.  Would YOU please ask him for us-- as you have a special connection with him, having founded the FORUM.  ALSO, let him KNOW that we pray for his health daily!  Duane & Betty

[judith collier]

I thought man had preeminence over beasts because of our God given dominion over them.
I think there are many, many things we do not know.

[Ninny]

Duane,
If you recall, Ray says and does give many, many verses telling us that PEOPLE don't go to heaven OR hell when they die...That just should tell you that what goes for one should go for the others..If people are asleep in their graves until the resurrection, then why would pets go to heaven or hell when they die?  When our spirit goes back to God...that is just the breath that keeps us alive, the air we breathe...I think God does keep our characters and our personality to return to us in that day...that may just be my personal opinion...I don't have a specific scripture for that...but that is just information, nothing living! Like Dennis said, we just don't know...but we do know that God loves us with an amazing love!!  For some reason 2Tim 1:12 comes to mind, the last part of that verse says  "...for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day." that doesn't prove anything for pets, but it tells me that whatever we have committed to Him will be with Him until He restores it to us on that day...I'm assuming that is the resurrection...?
Kathy

[Samson]

what is the harm or hurt in enjoying your favorite pet(s) in heaven?

Depends. Why do you enjoy your pet now? Is it because they are loyal and love you with no regard to your faults? Will you still have that desire (need) to be loved unconditionally (vanity?) in the next life?

A loyal dog almost worships it's owner. It gets all excited and dances around when it simply sees it owner. Would that be acceptable in the next life?

Perhaps God does have a place for our pets in the next life. I don't know.

Duane,

           I agree that the Post of Dennis found above basically covers and drives home the point and He concludes with I don't know. If the Scriptures are not explicitly clear on a matter, we tread dangerous water by speculating further or beyond what's clearly stated. We can begin to imply different things from verses we've read. In Colossians chapter one, it mentions Jesus reconciling all things to himself. In regards to Spirit, the primary meaning of Ruaah is Breath and Life force.

          The Scriptures refer to ru'ahh or life force as being not only in Humans, but also in Animals.(Gen.6:17; 7:15,22). Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 shows that Man dies in the same manner as the beasts, for " they all have one spirit(ruahh), so there is no superiority of man over the beast, that is, as to the life force common to both. It is clear that the "spirit" or life force(ruahh) as used in this sense is impersonal. Psalm. 146:3,4 says the spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground and thoughts perish. No conscious thought remains.

          All of the above requires a Resurrection in order for anyone to live again, so Our hope is in the Resurrection from the dead. There are no examples in Scripture of any animals or beasts being Resurrected and living again or promises to that affect. I stated above the comment about treading dangerous ground in speculating about any future for animals because we had a Thread in Off-Topic Discussions last summer entitled "Pets in God's Kingdom" which lead to much speculation. Yes it would nice to see Our loved pets again, especially when at times they seem to act better than most people. However, to venture too far as to any hope beyond the Grave regarding animals, I venture not.

                        Kind Regards, Samson.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Duane

However, Ray writes "Beasts (animals) don't go to heaven or hell when they die." ....

Neither do humans go to heaven or hell when we die physically. It is liberating to know there is no such thing as endless punnishment, torture or torment in Hell reserved for anyone. What happens is:

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath [Heb. - spirit]; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

If all SPIRITS return to God at death,

There can be no doubt that all spirits return to God at death.

Psa 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches
Psa 104:25 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.
Psa 104:26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Psa 104:27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.
Psa 104:28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath [ruach-spirit], they die, and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit [same word-ruach], they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

If ............. heaven is not a PHYSICAL PLACE

Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Ray also asserts as do the Scriptures, that heaven is a realm. The kingdom...realm, empire, monarchy, sovereignty or territory, is within, contained, inside not outside of YOU and I. This is a conceptual reality not a physical one.

what is the harm or hurt in enjoying your favorite pet(s) in heaven

Asking what is the harm or hurt in enjoying your favorite pet in heaven could also apply to every other physical item like flowers, birds, perfumes, foods or any other" thing" that God creates for our sake.

2Co 4:15  For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

We can only find our fulfillment and complete reconciliation with God, in God, not IN any "thing" of God but God Himself. Not what God makes or does but in Who God IS. This is like loving the King not for His Palace Powers and Principalities Assets or Acquisitions but for Who God is. God is Love.

Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by Him to reconcile ALL THINGS  unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

One day we shall all know the pleasure and fulfillment in the perfection of Christ  and our senses and appreciations shall no longer be anchored in things that perish or die,  or are made or created, but only in the Creator of heaven and of earth wherein all our tears will be wiped away. God knows how He will do that and His Word promises that He Will.

Arc

[anniej]

One day I'll stand before You, bare with no pretenses
Delighting in Your splendid sight
And the way You move my senses
I'm caught up in the thought of You
(Lyrics to a song I wrote)

Yes, Arc!  He will be our All in All one day!  What you said is right on!

Annie

[arion]

I've considered this question before as well as I too, have had beloved pets that were taken in death.  However, consider;

1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

When we are in our glorified spiritual bodies to judge this earth with Christ and to bring this world to salvation, and then in looking at that point which 'eye hath not seen or ear heard' will we be concerned with lessor things such as dogs and cats that are important to us now?  That would be like us now having a glorious vista of majestic mountains and meadows before us and being preoccupied with a blade of grass.  Personally, I don't think these lessor things will even enter our minds when we are beholding the fullness of God's glory and plan.

[Deborah-Leigh]

I left home for work this afternoon after putting the infra-red light to warm the cage for our little blue Love bird Zoe. She was sick and sitting huddled in the corner on the floor of her cage this morning. When I got home, she was dead. 

The timing of this thread, lifted my heart to reconsider that her sweet little songs and delightful manner God manifested for our delight through Zoe, HIS Creation and HIS creature, return to Him, the maker of that which is seen and unseen. So the timing of this thread interfaces with comfort and assurance again for me,  that God is Love. God shows it in so many ways!

Zoes little lifeless body, without her spirit, is just the empty vessel through which God Himself brought joy and songs into our home ~ and God is not dead!

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Beautiful inspired lyrics Annie.

Arion the encouraging second half of that edifying Scripture you recall is:

1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Blessings

Arc

[Vangie]

Thank you all for this thread.  Such wisdom and love....thanks be to God for such brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Duane]

Thank you ALL for your messages!  I  am TRULY SORRY for Arc's loss of her bird! 

I think I finally FOUND my own answer, after reading over and over again in the Bible that "God is a jealous
God" and got very ANGRY many times over Israel's (and individuals) adoration of "other things or other idols".
So, it stands to reason that if we gave any love or affection to a pet in HIS KINGDOM and diverted our love AWAY FROM HIM, He would be displeased!  As stated above, would we even want to "look upon His face" acknowledge a PET in HIS presence!

[EKnight]

Thank you ALL for your messages!  I  am TRULY SORRY for Arc's loss of her bird! 

I think I finally FOUND my own answer, after reading over and over again in the Bible that "God is a jealous
God" and got very ANGRY many times over Israel's (and individuals) adoration of "other things or other idols".
So, it stands to reason that if we gave any love or affection to a pet in HIS KINGDOM and diverted our love AWAY FROM HIM, He would be displeased!  As stated above, would we even want to "look upon His face" acknowledge a PET in HIS presence!

So would you all say the same holds true for our human loved ones?  For instance, when I die and am in the presence of our Lord and God, the  desire I have now to be with my husband again will not exist?

Eileen

[Linny]

Dear Eileen,
I think our human relationships are so wonderful for a reason. I think they will change but the love will still be there, don't you? 
Praying for you.
Love, Lin

[jassy]

 
I had a labrador called Blondie for 12 years. She was terrified of thunder in her later years. I came home from work one evening and she was gone. I searched and got my family to drive up and down the plot roads for days but no sign of her.

Because she was so timid and gentle and suffered with arthritis I was hurt to my core that I did not know what had become of her. I prayed for her and then after weeks assumed she was dead and carried on with life.

One day I stopped off the shop nearby my home and saw a photo of her and a phone number. I phoned and got the address which to my surprise was a very well to do family on the riverfront. This lady was a high powered business woman who ran her own company in the city. She told me that she was on her way to work and saw this dog limping on the side of the road covered in mud. She stopped, put this filthy dog in her luxury german car and went home. She had to change her clothes and get the car cleaned. She told me she still does not understand why she did it.

That labrador was fixed up at the vet, bathed cosseted and during storms slept inside on a Persian rug. The only reason they put a photo up of her is that she was unhappy and stopped eating. They realised she wanted to go home.
So I got my arthritic little labrador back and then had to put her down a few months later because of the pain in her joints.

Why did I tell this story? Because I believe God cared about what the fate was of this dog. He wanted to show me that if He could arrange for this luxurious rescue how much more would He do for me. We are worth more than many sparrows but the Father knows when one sparrow falls.
He has a purpose for everything and look how much attention and perfection is given to every living thing on this planet.
What going to happen in Heaven? I dont think we will ever comprehend even a tiny little bit until we get there.

[longhorn]

If I can't have my animals with me then send me to hell.   

Longhorn

[EKnight]

Well, there is a reason I ask.  I posed this question to Ray because I was grieving so badly for my husband.  Here is what Ray said:

Dear Eileen:  I am so sorry that you are having such a hard time with your sorrow. I do understand.

First of all, Yes, you will see and be with your husband in the future. I even have some reason to

believe that we will see our pets again, as these have brought incredible joy to millions of people

worldwide throughout history.  Don't we think that God realizes how much these things mean to us.

Maybe Ray was just trying to console a grieving widow with these kind words.

Eileen

[judith collier]

Eileen, maybe he was or maybe he wasn't, I don't know. But love was reaching out to you.  Look at all the love in this thread. Love put the little dog on a persian rug, love put the dog down when it was hurting so badly, love appeared at the right time for Arcturus when her beloved bird died. Love (God) is always working, always assisting, always loving. Perhaps we just need to trust this God that whatever He has in store for us will always be particular as He appears to know us as individuals
Whatever and however, He will wipe away our tears and there will be no more sorrow.
love, judy

[Linny]

Whatever and however, He will wipe away our tears and there will be no more sorrow.
love, judy

THIS is something to look forward to!!