Today in paradise

[Felix]

Hi every one. My NASB has these two verses:
Luke 23:43 "today you shall be with me in paradise"
John 20:17 "stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father"

I tell my Baptist friends that when you die you are dead. They almost always reply with: Jesus told the
thief on the cross, "today you shall be with me in paradise".

Well, how could Jesus be in paradise today when three days later He had not yet ascended to the father?
Is the word today mis-translated? Does it have a spiritual meaning? Of course, Ray has taught us that
Jesus words are spirit. Insight will be appreciated.
                                                                                                  Felix

[Linny]

Ray talks about this. He says the comma is in the wrong place as I recall. "I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."
But I also say that if Jesus said he'd be there TODAY then He lied for the reasons you sight. He didn't go to His Father as He was dead for 3 days before He rose and then he said He hadn't ascended yet.

[Dave in Tenn]

This translation in the CLV is closest to what Jesus was saying:

Luk 23:42-43 And he said to Jesus, "Be reminded of me, Lord, whenever Thou mayest be coming in Thy kingdom."  And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise."  

It's not just the placement of the comma, but the way in which Jesus answered the thief.  He says 'whenever...' and Jesus replies 'Verily, to you am I saying today...' or 'Verily, today I am saying...'  

This verse for Baptists is a handy hook on which to hang several doctrinal Idols of the heart.  I'm an old ex-Baptist myself, so I know this is true.    According to their/our misunderstanding of this verse, 1.  Jesus wasn't 'really' dead when He 'died'--He went to Paradise (either before or after He went to Sheol to release some captives) or some other square circle. 2.  Saved people immediately go to heaven when they die (and presumably, lost people immediately go to hell) and 3.  You don't have to be 'baptized' to be 'saved'.

Unless they see scripturally and spiritually that death is death, that resurrection is our only hope, that there is NO physical Hell OR Heaven, and that the ONE BAPTISM undergone by the Elect of God is SPIRITUAL they aren't likely going to want to move that "comma" where it OUGHT to be in accordance with the rest of Scripture, which does not contradict.  He is able to remove the blindness necessary to make the 'studying to show Thyself approved' fruitful.    

[Dawidos]

A question came to my mind regarding both thieves. We know all will receive salvation, so both thieves will eventually be saved, but what difference is between their fate? Will the repentant thief be ressurected in first ressurection? How should we understand word "paradise"? As the Kingdom set by Jesus Christ on the Earth after his Second Coming? Or as the Ultimate Kingdom ruled by God, where is universal salvation for all?

[Kat]

Here is an email about this verse.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html --------

It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context.   Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He?  No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise."  But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant.  Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:  "Verily I say unto thee this day:  With me shalt thou be in Paradise."  But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution?  God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture:  "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.

But is this what theology does?  No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF--"That VERY DAY the thief when with Christ TO HEAVEN."  Oh really?  That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.

DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that?  Is there any Scriptural justification for that?  NO, no there isn't.  In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven?  Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures.  "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."

There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9).  And what else is that Garden of Eden called?  Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).

[1]  The "Garden of Eden."  Was that garden, "heaven?"  What did we find in that garden:  (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).

[2]  The "Garden of Gethsemane."  Was that garden "heaven?"   What did we find in that garden?  (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden,  (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.

Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?   I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.  This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does.  That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD

This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.

God be with you,
Ray

[Felix]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I have found some real spiritual gems of understanding here.

I used to think that if God inspired the scripture that He would also inspire the translation. This is
obviously not true. We must really (and I mean really) search and study the scripture.

                                                                                                            Felix

[Felix]

Hi Janine
This was also a nagging question for me. It's so nice to have a clear understanding of this.
On anouther subject, I remember you mentioning your son. My son never made a profession of faith in
our church. I was a deacon there and felt hurt that he didn't accept my faith. Now I believe that he
was just more honest than the rest of us. Since coming to these new truths I have had better discussions
and better witnessing to him than ever before. Thank you for all your post.