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Author Topic: Right hand  (Read 2502 times)

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prarrydog

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Right hand
« on: June 30, 2006, 09:18:03 PM »

In Ray's LOF series #7 he states

"…the seven stars [messengers] which you saw IN MY RIGHT HAND, and the seven golden candlesticks [also in His same right hand]…" (Rev. 1:20).

and then again:

"Jesus says that the seven messengers and the seven churches are all, "…in My right hand…" (Rev. 1:20). ONE hand—they are all ONE."

Here are the verses that Ray is speaking about

Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

and

Rev 2:1  Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Where does it say that the seven candlesticks are in His right hand?  It says that He walks in their midst.  This word that is translated right hand is used many times throughout scripture.  In most cases it means "right side" or a place of honour.  Can the churches be in the same place of honour as the messengers (angels)?  Any input?  This has been puzzling me for awhile now. 

Rev 1:13  And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

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Chris R

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Re: Right hand
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2006, 11:17:21 PM »

Hi prarrydog,

Yes they seem to be both in the right hand, however this has little to do with the lesson to be understood in revelations.

your question:
Can the churches be in the same place of honour as the messengers (angels)?  Any input?  This has been puzzling me for awhile now. 

Were is this seat of honor? just who are these messengers?

REV 2:1 Unto the ANGEL of the church of Ephesus write!...I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou [THE ANGEL OF THE CHURCH OF EPHESUS] hast left thy first love.

Obvioulsy this angel [messenger] is in no place of "honor".

Chris R

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prarrydog

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Re: Right hand
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2006, 11:49:50 PM »

Chris R

Okay so if this "right hand" is not a place of honour but simply a "right hand", as you suggest, then how does one walk in the midst of something he holds in his hand.

Also you say that "they seem to be both in the right hand".  The scriptures at the beginning of this thread do not even hint that they are both in the right hand.  Do you have any other scripture that shows this? 

One more thing - it is not obvious that this angel is in no place of honour.  Let's look at the surrounding verses:

 Rev 2:1  Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 2:2  I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3  And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast labored, and hast not fainted. Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Then He goes on to say
Rev 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:6  But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Rev 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Key words...or else

I am not trying to show you, Ray or anyone up.  I am simply doing a study on this and do appreciate any input.

Thanks
with love



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Chris R

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Re: Right hand
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2006, 12:31:44 AM »

Hi Prarrydog,

There is nothing "literally" in Christs "right hand"....All of these sins charged to the seven messengers of these seven churches are "our sins"... these warnings are for us.

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

Hopefully this might help

Chris R
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buddyjc

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Re: Right hand
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2006, 01:11:41 PM »

Chris, I do not think the candlesticks are in Christ's 'right hand.'  The right hand is the hand that 'takes hold of things' and the stars are symbolic of the Elect.  The Elect are being saved whereas the called are not.  The candlesticks cannot possibly be in Christ's 'right hand.'   

Brian
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Beloved

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Re: Right hand
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2006, 02:37:48 PM »

I agree with buddyjc

Here are the scriptures. The topic is presented and this line refers back to these previous scriptures.
The stars are in His right hand and He and the stars (chosen) walk midst the seven candlesticks (called)

(Rev 1:12 KJVR)  And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

(Rev 1:13 KJVR)  And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

(Rev 1:16 KJVR)  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.


(Rev 1:19 KJVR)  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

(Rev 1:20 KJVR)  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

I also kinda agree with Chris that thinking you are the elect is not exactly a place of honor.... at least not yet.
We have to Follow  Christ (Let The Holy Spirit work His Word in our lives) , Deny our Flesh (Rid ourselves of the carnal aspects in our lives) Take up your Cross and Overcome (all of the evil and false doctrines that confront us ad individuals) and Endure until the end.

Beloved
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prarrydog

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Re: Right hand
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2006, 03:24:07 PM »



   I e-mailed Ray about a week ago to ask why he wrote this.  He has not responded yet.  I think he is swamped right now.  I hesitate to question what he says because he is not often wrong.  I will probably just end up looking stupid.  ;D.  We'll see what happens.  Thanks for all your input.  Keep it coming.
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Beloved

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Re: Right hand
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2006, 06:31:44 PM »

I missed this verse on my last post

(Rev 2:1 KJVR) 
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

In the meantime I also re-read Rays paper and see where your confusion lies. Yes it is quoted that way in his paper but I think Ray was focusing on the symbolism in the Bible and was trying to explain the seven messengers to the seven churches as ‘oneness’ concept and he groups these two phrases to make a point.

I myself occasionally get confused about the roles of the few chosen (eklektos) those who have been called out of Babylon and the Many Called (ekklesia ) those called out of the sea of mankind. I have to constantly remind myself that both groups have been called by God to Jesus Christ.

Throughout the Bible you have to look carefully at the word and the verse to help figure out who (church or elect) the person writing was actually talking to or about.  (It is a group within a group but God still sees them as all belonging to Christ)

If you have ears to hear then…. The elect are the messengers ….because even though nothing you did caused you to see His revelations , God in His mercy picked each of us: the weak, the stupid and the pitiful the small, etc to serve as examples of His love when their (the many called) time comes.
 
Every Ekectos was also a former card carrying member of the EKKlesia.  We are told to come OUT and BE Separated.  Therefore heed the mistakes that were cited and listen to the warnings to the seven churches..
 
It is plain that the seven stars are symbolic for the seven messengers. The messanger is thought to represent the elect symbolically perhaps because we will actually bring the one true message to our brethren and the rest of humanity. 
 
But what will be the difference between the many called and the chosen after the lake of Fire? 

So you see there is no 'honor' for this elect position  (ie stars.. my ISA version call them gleamers …I like that word better because it puts things in a better perspective and help one not to over esteem themselves) 
We are HIS servants. A servant should not expect praise for what he has been aked to do by His Master.

All and I mean All……All the Honor and Glory belongs to God.            Hallejuah

Hallelujah Hallejuah hallejuah.........HALLELJAH

Beloved
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Craig

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Re: Right hand
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2006, 08:13:15 PM »



   I e-mailed Ray about a week ago to ask why he wrote this.  He has not responded yet.  I think he is swamped right now.  I hesitate to question what he says because he is not often wrong.  I will probably just end up looking stupid.  ;D.  We'll see what happens.  Thanks for all your input.  Keep it coming.

Here is Ray's reply.


That was an error I saw and told Dennis to correct years ago.  Last year someone brought it to my attention again, and I checked and it had not been changed so I requested Dennis to change it a second time, which he apparently didn't do. I know when Dennis is traveling it is hard when I ask him to do these things. Normally he is very good at it, but he missed this one. Tell the Forum it will be corrected, and that I was aware of it for years now.

God be with you,

Ray
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