God and Christ one .

[gallenwalsh]

I have read some of the discussions on Christ and God the father, the difference between the two and still have some confusion regarding Christ. What I understands is: Christ is a created being,the spokesman for God the Father. He was created to look like a man,  but has a spiritual body.That is IF you could see into the spirit realm. He was Made flesh, for the purpose of dying. Then he went back to what he was before.A spiritual being that looks like a man. This seems pretty straight forward to me. Where I get confused is:It has been said, Christ is spirit, God the father is spirit, they BOTH are the Holy spirit. What confuses me is: The previous statement suggests that Christ is "A" spirit, and the GOD the Father "IS" spirit. So how then can Christ be "'SPIRIT"as well.  As I am writing this it seems foolish to focus on such a thing ,but, that being said it seemed important enough to write a paper on it and everyone I am sure would like to know about it, because we all ask questions about it.Can it really be understood ?I was reading someones comment comparing our inheritance to immortality to being just a drop of water being added to the ocean. would the drop of water even care about itself after that? It is as if you become "part" of "everything" at that point, similar to the  Hindu belief of nirvana, and the Japanese belief of oblivion .Is this supposed to help ?Or am I just stupid? Seriously .

[Deborah-Leigh]

I don't think you are being stupid gallenwalsh!

Some of the analogies that contemplate Hindu or Japanese beliefs are very poetic but they miss the Truth. I am aware of that one about the drop becoming the Ocean and it sounds good, looks good but misses the something vital that at first I did not discern, but now do.  Here is what Jesus said AFTER He had DIED, and was Resurrected to life when He appeared to them:

Luk 24:39  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have.

Jesus Christ has not only the Spirit of God that He shares as One with God, ~ Jesus has a SOUL TOO! I came across the fact that the Scriptures say that the life is in the blood actually should be translated that the SOUL is in the blood. This point was made by Ray, that blew my mind when I first heard it.

Lev 17:11  Lev 17:11  For the lifeH5315(should read .../For the SOUL) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls:H5315 for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.H5315

I went to look up the Strong's Concordance H5315, and saw for myself the truth of the insight. I believe we have to be  as the Soul, Life, Mind, Heart, Person, Body, Self and Soul as is Christ, which happens to be some of the other translations for H5315!

What Hindu and other religions don't get, is that God is making us into His Image. It is the Spirit of God through the Son, that is causing us to become Sons and Daughters of God.

2Co 6:18  AND YOU SHALL BE MY SONS AND DAUGHTERS,' SAYS THE LORD THE RULER OF ALL."

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is.

Jesus Christ is with the Father and comes to us as the Holy Spirit

Joh 14:26  But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send at my request, will teach you everything, and will bring to your memories all that I have said to you.

I hope this will add to your understanding and encourage your desire to know God. I know there are some very important excerpts from out of what Ray has shared with us that perhaps someone will come by and post here for us, and better serve to answer your question.

Arc

[Kat]

Hi Gallenwalsh,

I think God the Father as just simply beyond our comprehension. First off He is invisible spirit, He is not a being that is in a certain place, because He is everywhere, this is an enigma to us. He is self-existing and eternal, no beginning and no end, another enigma. By what ever means (Ray has explained this to some degree) He is or became perfect in wisdom and all goodness, yet another enigma. His power/spirit is holy and the means by which all things exist, which means His Spirit is everywhere and in everything.

So He determined to bring about humanity and would make us the way that we are (physical and temporary) and how we think and He knew that we could not comprehend who or what Him is. So in His great wisdom He created a being, a replica of Himself, but in the form of a man (like we are), so that we would be able to relate to Him, Jesus Christ. He is spirit and has an unending existence in the spiritual realm, a state of immortality. He made Christ as the Supreme Being (under Himself) to carry out this plan for the creation of this universe.

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

The human race has been given a physical existence so as to experience good and evil (the tree of life) and of course there is the whole plan of salvation. This physical 'stage' is just that, the first stage/part of the process of being brought towards immortality and it is temporary. But it is an absolute necessary part of the process, we must first live in this world and be deceived, corrupt, dishonorable, weak to the pulls of the flesh, a sinner, this is the dark backdrop we all must experience. But God promises us this is not the end of it.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
v. 43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
v. 44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
v. 45  And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
v. 47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
v. 48  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
v. 49  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

So the few at the first resurrection will receive immortality, be changed from these weak physical bodies to powerful, glorious spirit bodies and join Christ in the kingdom of heaven. I do not believe that God has put us through all that we experience on this earth to develop the good character traits, so as to bring us all together into one homogeneous mass. No, all this we are experiencing now is for a very good reason, to create individuals, separate or distinct with personalities distinguishable from one another. All of our different personalities are to be used to interact and deal with this huge amount of human beings yet to be saved. What God is doing is far greater than the Hindu, Japanese or any other understand.

Luke 8:10  And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
      "Seeing they may not see,
      And hearing they may not understand.'

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

I don't believe the word 'life' is mistranslated there.  And I don't believe Jesus "HAS a soul."  I don't "have" a soul.  I AM a soul.  I'm not different from Him in that regard.  SOUL and LIFE are largely interchangeable.  I suppose there could be life without 'soul'.  Maybe plants and bacteria "have" that.  Our LIFE and everything about it (mind, emotion, character, memory, etc. etc. etc.) IS our Soul.

I can't explain it better than Ray:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11605.0.html

   

[Deborah-Leigh]

I don't believe the word 'life' is mistranslated there. 

   

Dave,

Perhaps you should reconsider your stance. Ray made the point that the word life in the Scripture Lev 17:11 should be translated as Soul not life. The comment is in one of Ray's Audio's. It was such a huge surprise for me, that I have thankfully remembered it to this day! I do not have the luxuary to find exactly where Ray made this insight public for you to go and hear for yourself and perhaps someone else may have the opportunity.


Arc

[gallenwalsh]

So then is Christ only in one place at a time with a spiritual body, Ray has said we will have a spiritual body just as Christ does.Even though Christ has a spiritual body he has the spirit of the Father in him. It has been said he has it to the FULLEST measure.We only get a sample, a down payment of the full inheritance.Our physical bodies could not contain very much of it, kind of like a wineskin having new wine in it, it would just bubble and burst. Which just made me think of us as being the wine ( first fruits ) of the kingdom, that Christ referred to in that he would not touch wine until he drinks it anew with us in the kingdom. Does that make any sense ??

[gallenwalsh]

I was under the impression that the blood of Christ did nothing. It was a spiritual work Christ did on the cross.The blood just symbolized the work.God respects the work, not the blood, it's just physical stuff.Christ himself was the sacrifice and still pleads with the father on our behalf. As we will for the rest of humanity when we are ready. The way I understood the cross was that God spared not even his own son( first born) our experience. He had to become fully us so we could become fully him. God knows the end from  the beginning so he created the end first.  Christ was not complete  ( as our savior) until he became us. Prior to that he was creator.So now he fully understands us so that we can fully understand him. Did I get it wrong ??

[Dave in Tenn]

Arc, in the concordant sense, it may be that Nephesh should ALWAYS be translated 'soul'.  It isn't always in the KJV.  It's the inconsistency of translation that God is using to blind people.  If you can find that passage, I'd appreciate reading why Ray prefers 'soul' to 'life' as the consistent translation of the Hebrew.   

I'll stand by the rest of my statement.  We ARE souls.  That too is knowledge learned at B-T and hard won, as I believed most of my life in the psuedo-spiritual gobblygook disseminated by Christian fairy-tale writers.  It would be easier to express 'we are lives'...at least we kinda know what a 'life' is.  But it's perhaps more powerful and effective to finally understand what SOUL is.  Then it doesn't matter much whether you say 'soul', 'living-being', or 'person' or some other name for a life--you're talking about the Nephesh in scriptural terms, and still speaking English.      

[Kat]

Here is an excerpt from the bible study 'Was Christ Made Sin?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html -------

So Jesus Christ did not take away our sins by being "MADE into sin," being made OUR sin, did He?  No, of course not.  Jesus was made a "OFFERING for sin."  His Own body was the offering, and it was the BLOOD inside of His body that would actually do the cleansing and removing of our sin.  We were not washed in the mind of Jesus by Jesus' mind becoming our sin and the sin of the world, but we were washed by "His Own BLOOD" to accomplish this.  And it was the blood that came OUT of His body that was the real sacrifice.

1 John 1:7 ...and the BLOOD of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Remember: "...when Thou [God] shall made His SOUL [nephesh] an offering for sin..." (Isa. 53:10).  And just where is the "soul"  of man found?

Lev 17:11  For the life ['soul' - nephesh, not 'life'] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the BLOOD that makes an atonement for the soul.

And so it is abundantly clear from the Scriptures, that it was not the heart or mind of Jesus that was the actual offering for sin, but His Own body which contained His blood.  And this very blood which contains Christ's soul, that was poured out onto the ground, which atones for OUR sin, not for His sin - JESUS HAD NO SIN NOR WAS HE MADE TO BE SIN.
-------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi gallenwalsh

I came across this that perhaps may give you more to contemplate regarding the conclusions and questions you have posted.

http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_7B.mp3


So this is the best that God can do, but it's not pretty and it's not fancy and it's not always happy.  It's painful  and sad and much of our lives are misery, you know, laughing on the outside and crying on the inside.  It's not always happy happy happy, but it's necessary.  Is it right, that God should put us through something like that?
We have no say about it, we didn't ask to be born and we didn't ask to get lung cancer or whatever.  We didn't ask for this, God puts us through it.  Is it fair for Him to do that?  Why is it fair?  Well there is something good in store.  But is it necessary that we would have to go through all of this bad first?  It's true, you have to have the contrast.  But sometimes I just say, Lord I think I'm at the place now, Lord I think I'm there.  You can take away the bad and see if I'm not thankful. 

He sent Jesus Christ to go through the same stuff we go through and that's why I wanted to bring these out today.  Because most of you never knew that.  Jesus Christ lived a pretty painful life.  Paul lived a pretty painful life, he said I learned to be content in all things.  God put His Son through what we have to go through, because He loves us!  He didn't have to.

Jesus Christ did something between His creation and the creation of the earth.  He did something to acquire God's glory, something.  Because He had it and He didn't get it for nothing.
 
God wants creatures, He wants children, He wants sons and daughters.  He has a desire to have something like Himself.  But for us to be like Him, we have to go through some pretty tough stuff.  So He sent His Son as an example, as how you can go through it and never get angry or upset with God.  And to never turn against your fellowman, because of what you have to go through.  He lived a perfect life, of the perfect man, sick and diseased, in pain and He lived it perfectly.  But God was living in Him, the Father was going through it just as much as He was, you see. 

Christ had to die, it said He had to die for our sins.  That's true, that's the scripture, Christ died for our sin.  But then we have a scripture here that doesn't mention sin.

John 3:16  "For God so(thus) loved the world,"

Thus or in the manner, a lot of people think it's saying He loved us so much, but that is not what this is saying.  What this is saying is God loved us, in this way.  This is the manner and way in which He loved us.  In this way He loved the world.

"...that He gave His only begotten Son,"

Ok, He died, they killed Him on the cross, He died.

"...that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Of course the Bible is written so man does not understand it.  That's why some of these things are put in there, "that who-so-ever believes."  God knows and now we know, everybody is going to believe.  So the 'who-so-ever' is going to be everybody, ok. 

But He gave His Son, now here's the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die?  Why?  Why did the Father sacrifice His Son?  Why did He have to do that?  HE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT!  He didn't have to do anything, HE'S GOD!  Why did He?
 
Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure.  That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US!  He did not have to die.  He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value?  What can I do? 

I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life.  I have all that to give, but they will say,  you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have.  What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you?  And God said, I will DIE!
 
But God can't die, He's eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness.  If you have immortality you can't die.
 
So He made a Son.  He made Him great.  And to show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son.  Ok, Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die.
 
Then they will know We love them.
 
Then they will know.

Arc

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Dave

We are to have at least a second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine.L Ray Smith Ref:  Truth no 6 TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD

Ray does exactly what the Scriptures admonish us to do, which we both failed to do! 

I am grateful that Kat was given to bring us all the edification required that blesses us to see the spiritual match to Lev 17 :11 is Isa 53:10

There is no need to argue, debate or feel bad, we have only to find the second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine.  Easier said than done!

Arc

[judith collier]

Having been raised Roman Catholic I was taught LIFE was in the blood and that Blood of Christ is what cleansed us. 
Precious and Holy is His sacrifice.
judy

[Deborah-Leigh]

Having been raised Roman Catholic I was taught LIFE was in the blood and that Blood of Christ is what cleansed us. 
Precious and Holy is His sacrifice.
judy

I was also raised a Roman Catholic. My Father was Jewish!

So, yes, I recall too that I never heard that the soul is in the blood except for in my Biology class that taught DNA is in the blood!

What do I know!

Arc

[gallenwalsh]

Can someone explain how blood was necessary. Blood is a physical substance. How can that effect anything spiritual? The shedding of ones blood resisting sin is the proof you will have nothing to do with it.The way I understand it: The blood was the ''physical proof'' of Christs inner self. I remember reading from one of Rays papers stating that Christ does not offer his blood to the Father he himself is the offering.He did not return to the Father with a cup full of blood.His work was a spiritual work.What I gathered from that is that the very spirit of Christ put into us is what cleanses us,  from our sins.His experience of becoming flesh enables us to become like him.His life lived as a man proves he loves god first with all his soul and all his mind and might and loves his fellows as he loves himself, setting an example for us.I do not think this was about blood, I think this was about "LIFE".Quality of "LIFE" The shedding of blood was the " proof", the evidence was his life. And the promise of a perfect life without death by trusting GOD.I personally never saw Christ die and be raised back from the dead, we all want to believe that, that is our hope. So what changes a person, inside himself. Not blood, but spirit. Not my spirit, Christ spirit, his continuing life. Life is in the spirit,Christ words are spirit and they are life. Not Blood.Blood is a symbol.

[Deborah-Leigh]

The Truth is not established on one word, as such. Ps119:160 The SUM of Your Word is Truth (NASV) so if blood is in the Word of God, which it is,then it has a place of meaning that is beautifully expounded by Ray which does not exclude the fact that the Bible is one giant parable of symbolic meaning of all the words. 

What literally happened has to spiritually happen in all of us if we are to be as Christ is Himself.

I believe the accounts of the Bible are events that took place literally for our admonition spiritually.

Arc

[Marky Mark]

Can someone explain how blood was necessary. Blood is a physical substance. How can that effect anything spiritual?

Blood as a symbol of Gods sacrifice to us should never be taken lightly.
Jesus's blood was shed so that we all could be saved .
Remember that the shadow's are indeed the reality of the Spirit.

Lev 17:11  For the life of the flesh is in the blood. And I have given it to you on the altar to make an atonement for your souls. For it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1Jn 1:7  But if we live in the light, as God does, we share in life with each other. And the blood of his Son Jesus washes all our sins away.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Heb 9:11  Christ came as the high priest of the good things that are now here. He also went into a much better tent that wasn't made by humans and that doesn't belong to this world.
Heb 9:12  Then Christ went once for all into the most holy place and freed us from sin forever. He did this by offering his own blood instead of the blood of goats and bulls.
Heb 9:13  According to the Law of Moses, those people who become unclean are not fit to worship God. Yet they will be considered clean, if they are sprinkled with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a sacrificed calf.
Heb 9:14  But Christ was sinless, and he offered himself as an eternal and spiritual sacrifice to God. That's why his blood is much more powerful and makes our consciences clear. Now we can serve the living God and no longer do things that lead to death.
Heb 9:15  Christ died to rescue those who had sinned and broken the old agreement. Now he brings his chosen ones a new agreement with its guarantee of God's eternal blessings!
Heb 9:16  In fact, making an agreement of this kind is like writing a will. This is because the one who makes the will must die before it is of any use.
Heb 9:17  In other words, a will doesn't go into effect as long as the one who made it is still alive.
Heb 9:18  Blood was also used to put the first agreement into effect.
Heb 9:19  Moses told the people all that the Law said they must do. Then he used red wool and a hyssop plant to sprinkle the people and the book of the Law with the blood of bulls and goats and with water.
Heb 9:20  He told the people, "With this blood God makes his agreement with you."
Heb 9:21  Moses also sprinkled blood on the tent and on everything else that was used in worship.
Heb 9:22  The Law says that almost everything must be sprinkled with blood, and no sins can be forgiven unless blood is offered.
Heb 9:23  These things are only copies of what is in heaven, and so they had to be made holy by these ceremonies. But the real things in heaven must be made holy by something better.
Heb 9:24  This is why Christ did not go into a tent that had been made by humans and was only a copy of the real one. Instead, he went into heaven and is now there with God to help us.
Heb 9:25  Christ did not have to offer himself many times. He wasn't like a high priest who goes into the most holy place each year to offer the blood of an animal.
Heb 9:26  If he had offered himself every year, he would have suffered many times since the creation of the world. But instead, near the end of time he offered himself once and for all, so that he could be a sacrifice that does away with sin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Mat 26:26  During the meal Jesus took some bread in his hands. He blessed the bread and broke it. Then he gave it to his disciples and said, "Take this and eat it. This is my body."
Mat 26:27  Jesus picked up a cup of wine and gave thanks to God. He then gave it to his disciples and said, "Take this and drink it.
Mat 26:28  This is my blood, and with it God makes his agreement with you. It will be poured out, so that many people will have their sins forgiven.
Mat 26:29  From now on I am not going to drink any wine, until I drink new wine with you in my Father's kingdom."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Rom 3:21  But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness is revealed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets-
Rom 3:22  God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
Rom 3:23  since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
Rom 3:24  By his grace they are justified freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25  whom God offered as a place where atonement by Christ's blood could occur through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal with sins committed in the past.
Rom 3:26  He wanted to demonstrate at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the person who has the faithfulness of Jesus.



Peace...Mark

[Dave in Tenn]

Gallenwalsh, there are many things that Jesus accomplished by His death and the shedding of His blood.  Among them is as an example of what we have to go through to follow Him.  There's no argument between one thing that He accomplished and another thing that He accomplished.  As long as each is Truth according to scripture, then all are truth taken together.

I don't find anything terribly wrong with what you said, but I'm not a real bible scholar.  Jesus came as flesh (and blood).  He gave His life as a sacrifice.  He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets.  The Law and the Prophets required blood.  Yes, of course they didn't drain off a cup of blood from the sacrifice and let the beast live.  The sacrifice died.

Arc and Judy.  I'll just repeat that it's more important to understand what SOUL is than to argue over Hebrew to English translations.  To be honest here while I'm typing, I don't have anybody to 'teach' but myself.  Ray ALWAYS speak SCRIPTURALLY which is his strength as a teacher.  What has been valuable to me to understand what these SCRIPTURAL words actually mean and not the definition imposed on them by centuries of theology.  I'm closing in on 54.  If I've ever had an interesting theological discussion, it's been thirty years ago.  I was probably a little drunk then.  

Stick a fork in me...I'm done.        

[Joel]

Lets not forget:
Hebrews, 13:20-21
And now may the God of peace, who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, equip you with all you need for doing his will, May he who became the great Shepherd of the sheep by an everlasting agreement between God and you, SIGNED WITH HIS BLOOD, produce in you through the power of Christ all that is pleasing to him, To him be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Joel