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Author Topic: Trinity question  (Read 3818 times)

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booker

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Trinity question
« on: August 23, 2010, 06:13:45 AM »

Here are some arguments for the trinity,i haven't found on ray's paper.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one[echad] LORD:

The Hebrew word "echad" is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh," it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut. 6:4.

A different word, "yachid," the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, indisputably means an absolute numeric one. Anti-Trinitarians would naturally expect such a word to be commonly used of God, but it is never used to describe God.

and

The trinity was at the baptism of Jesus.
The Father God spoke from heaven “this is my beloved Son,” God the Son was standing in the water, and God the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove upon Jesus.


Matt 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, He went up at once out of the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he [John] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on Him.

Mark 1:10 And when He came up out of the water, at once he [John] saw the heavens torn open and the [Holy] Spirit like a dove coming down [to enter] into Him.

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came from heaven, {saying,} You are My Son, My Beloved! In You I am well pleased {and} find delight!

John 1:32 John gave further evidence, saying, I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and it dwelt on Him [never to depart].

note:I'm with ray on the trinity,i just wanted to hear all the arguments for the trinity explained.
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soberxp

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2010, 08:22:42 AM »

Holy Father
the son of God   
Holy Spirit
 :D


IMO,Trinity showed us what's "form" of Jesus,  or how to become "believer" and "beloved one"  ,just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 08:37:32 AM by soberxp »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2010, 09:50:03 AM »

Hi booker,

I am persuaded that there is no such thing as a trinity. :) You don't have to be and no one else has to be either, but I am persuaded and maybe that says nothing and means less to you or anyone else, which is okay! :) But since you asked...maybe something of what you may or may not read that follows, might make sence, ring a bell or sound true to you. If not, that's okay too!  :)

For me, The Scriptures say “ The Father God spoke…… “  so..... The Father God’s Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove.  Does this mean there is more than one God?  No! It means that The Father God’s Holy Spirit. If you take a basic sentence like The President Obama, the Nation’s Leader, came to the White House…. Does it mean that there are two persons, the President and the Leader? NO!  Yet the Word of God is plain only to those who it is given to see and hear and is convoluted out of all meaning by those who enjoy inventing things that fool, befuddle and betwixt others into thinking their leaders are wise, high minded above their reach and therefore should be followed blindly! I followed blindly for the esteem, false esteem that was coerced into my understanding from childhood onwards.  All of us who come out of Babylon and her Synagogues of Satan have to be there first!

More importantly, Ray has nailed this topic, unveiled its lies and debunked the false teaching with the emphasis on the Word of God. My own experience of deviant demon guides and repentance for taking the easy path of seductive doctrines of demons where I don't have to think for myself but could abdicate my God given mind to follow high sounding doctrines and get some cozy fellowship approval from the holier than thou congregation. Oh they don't know better for sure and yes you do get some very sweet participators in the Synagogues of Satan until you touch their idols, then they will denounce you, hate you, reject and betray you even if you saved their homes from famine, risked your life to save their drowning babies and gave your share of your salary to build their monuments to their god who appears as light to their profane practices and spiritual orgies of congeniality dipped in hypocrisy gleaming faces of rabid soul rot. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings for friend and family who are still in the experience of following holy appearing people and feel good gatherings.

I am not mad at them, just far from them, and God willing, getting more lost to them.  :D  God knows what He is doing. I was with them and leading too so I know how lovely it feels like to be there! It is lovely and much worse to be out of Babylon, socially speaking.  Spiritually speaking it is definitely much better to be closer to God and not Satan or people believing, following and practicing in lies about and against God. Knowing God, He can also put anyone, including me, straight back into babylon if He sees me with any pride or self acclaimed merits. It is the Spirit of God that draws us away from lies to Himself not anything we can do say or earn.  Well, that is just what I believe about God being able to put me back anywhere, anytime and not for any reason, but for His Wisdom and my good.... I digress...

Ray has pointed out in his writings that Jesus is not the Son of the Holy Spirit but is the Son of God the Father as written in the Scriptures. Is not the Spirit of God Holy? If there was a trinity, the Scriptures would not read “and God the Holy Spirit came down” they would read, and God AND the Holy Spirit came down not God THE Holy Spirit. If the Scriptures had apostrophes then we would be debating on whether there is more than one, ONE GOD! Some, want to, they like to and they HAVE to, believe the lies....until the Truth sets them free, and they won't like that either but they will be set free and they will learn righteousness. God makes the Plans and causes everything, even the not liking to retain God in our knowledge…God causes that and the consequences. God shares with no one carnal or mortal, His Responsibility for us all….so why should we? God is Responsible for us not any Church lead doctrine of demons and mortals. We have, by experience, to learn and find out that it is better to retain God in our knowledge.

Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Arc
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soberxp

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 11:02:56 AM »


Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Arc


hi Arc

Holy Father
+
the son of God   
+
Holy Spirit
=
still one,but specific one.


anyone on the earth,no matter they are good or bad,believer or unbeliver,they all have Holy Father,
for unbeliver,just they don't admit it,right?maybe god still admit they as the son of god,wrong?
for believer,they may admit Holy Father,but maybe they don't think they are son of god,right?
for good and bad,they also have Spirit or "soul",right?but they may not have the Holy Spirit ( right Spiritual right) or even God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient,they still have EGO,just Holy Spirit can't into them as Jesus.

God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient
do you think it as God gave them a reprobate mind? if so they should be as bad as they can,why they still have a hypocrisy gleaming faces ? and they will seem like robot Was control by "evil" god,is it?or are we?of course not,our god is good.

IMO,trinity just a word to describe one thing (infinity+infinity+infinity=infinity)
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Kat

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 11:51:25 AM »


Hi Booker,

Here is an email which should answer some of these arguments for the trinity.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#trinity ---------

I have little interest in the trinity theory. I merely wrote a paper on it because people often ask. The one negative I do see in the theory, however, is that a trinity is in effect a "closed Godhead."  Yet, the Scriptures plainly tell us that WE TOO CAN BECOME MEMBERS OF THE VERY FAMILY (not trinity) OF GOD. If we could become members of the 'trinity' then by the very nature of words and their meanings, the trinity WOULD CEASE TO EXIST! Think about it.

We too, mankind, also, like God, have a spirit. Our spirit, however, is NOT A SECOND PERSON! If I am with you 'in spirit' then I AM WITH YOU. My spirit is NOT SOMEONE ELSE! Nor is it an ADDITION to me. Without MY spirit I would not exist. Without GOD'S spirit, GOD WOULD CEASE TO EXIST--GOD IS SPIRIT!!! God communicates and operates throughout the whole universe by HIS spirit. We TOO partake of this same spirit, but not through a third person of a trinity.

Jesus Christ told His disciples before His departure:

"Now, whenever the consoler [Gk: 'parakletos '= BESIDE - CALLer] which I shall be sending you [notice that Christ is the Sender, but FROM the Father], that will be testifying concerning Me" (John 15:26).

Now notice this:

"But I am telling you the truth.  It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, THE CONSOLER WILL NOT BE COMING TO YOU." (John 16:7).

Why? If the Holy Spirit as a third person of a triune trinity is what God's spirit really is, then WHY would Jesus have to depart before IT could come if IT is a separate individual FROM Jesus?

What or Who is this "comforter?" Is it the third personality of a triune God? Let's read it:

"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit OF truth [Christ is TRUTH. He said "I am THE TRUTH"]..." (John 16:13).

"That will be glorifying Me, seeing that OF MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE is it getting, and will be informing you" (John 16:14-15).

Whatever is coming to comfort His Apostles after He is gone is something that is OF CHRIST that the Father GAVE TO HIM. Did the Father give to Christ the third person of the trinity???

Now John 16:27-28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:

"...seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD [out from beside God]. I CAME OUT FROM the Father and have come into the world.  Again, I am LEAVING THE WORLD and am going TO THE FATHER."

After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again the THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:

"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).

Back to John:

"Remain IN ME.  I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).

We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:

"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).

And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. But specifically HOW? And why must Jesus go away first?

Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH. Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.

Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'?  God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it?  I John 2:1:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.  And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!

There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!

When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere!

"Hereby know ye the SPIRIT OF GOD:  Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God" (I John 4:2).

"Hereby know we that WE DWELL IN HIM, and HE IN US, because He hath given us OF [genitive--OF] His spirit" (Verse 13).

It is JESUS CHRIST Who comes IN OUR FLESH. To deny that, that it is JESUS CHRIST Who comes in our flesh is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.

CHRIST is our comforter. CHRIST leads us into all Truth. It is CHRIST in us the hope of glory. CHRIST is the parakletos. And this is all accomplished by the spirit OF God which the Father gave also to Christ and so we have the spirit of both the Son and the Father making its home IN US, not a third person of a fabled trinity!

OF COURSE Jesus Christ is God. He is the VERY IMAGE, THE EXPRESS IMAGE, OF THE INVISIBLE GOD HIMSELF--and that makes Christ GOD. And Jesus and His Father ARE ONE and they operate through ONE SPIRIT--THEIR spirit, not some OTHER person of a trinity.
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 11:15:00 PM by Kat »
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Joel

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 10:55:57 PM »

Hi Booker,
Ray has explained the subject of the trinity and the Godhead, IMO better than anyone I know.
Colossians, 2:9-10
For in him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Trinitarians can quote Matthew 28:19 all day long, and whether it is a spurious scripture or not doesn't matter to me.
What is the name OF the Father?
What is the name OF the Son?
What is the name OF the Holy Ghost?
Everything must focus on Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, or it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Joel
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soberxp

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 04:03:46 AM »


Holy Father (true?)
+
the son of God   (true?)
+
Holy Spirit  (true?)
=
true+ true+true=true
still one,but specific one.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 04:30:08 AM »


hi Arc

Holy Father (true?)
+
the son of God   (true?)
+
Holy Spirit  (true?)
=
true+ true+true=true
still one,but specific one.

Hi soberexp

There is no trinity. Non + Zip+ Zilch = Nowhere any trinity and no third ghost :)


Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH.  Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.

Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'?  God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it?  I John 2:1:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.  And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!

There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!

When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere! http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm


No Trinity ANYWHERE!

Arc

« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 04:41:08 AM by Arcturus »
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soberxp

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 04:41:53 AM »

 ;) okay,I understand your point.
from what i knew,the word "Trinity " is what pastor used to explain there is one god for Jesus IN THE FLESH at that time,right?  8)

P.S the word "Trinity "  is comparison,if the word "Trinity " helps people to understand there is only one god,I don't think this is false teaching, the word "Trinity "  is comparison. god(truth?)Jesus(truth?)holy Spirit(truth?) if god is truth,what's the different about any truth from god?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 05:03:26 AM by soberxp »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 04:58:50 AM »


Quote
what i knew,the word "Trinity " is what pastor used to explain there is one god

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I.

Pastorial theology confuses for it holds the spirit of confusion and false teaching.

2Ti 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

It is sad but true, that the leaders  of unsound doctrines are in the Church and God has made them blind. Jesus says....

Mat 15:14  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Arc
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 05:01:01 AM by Arcturus »
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soberxp

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 05:14:52 AM »

I got this from you.

1Ti 1:7  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

 ;) i'm still learning.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2010, 05:36:05 AM »


Excellent soberxp...It makes me happy to see you affirming the Word of God not the words of man!

Blessings

Arc
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 06:07:17 AM »


The excerpt I used in my Post was copied from http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#trinity, that is the same excerpt in Kats Reply #4 in this same Thread.  :)
 
1Th 1:3  Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Heb 6:10  for God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and the labour of the love, that ye shewed to His name, having ministered to the saints and ministering;


Arc
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dave

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 04:00:47 PM »

Can not be said any plainer.  "No Trinity ANYWHERE! Arc  "    ;D   Glory!

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soberxp

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2010, 09:16:05 PM »

 ??? no anywhere ??? where did the word come from ?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 09:17:33 PM by soberxp »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2010, 09:59:25 PM »

??? no anywhere ??? where did the word come from ?

Theologians. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

soberxp

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2010, 11:03:13 PM »

who we are ? scientist ? only scientist uses the word Theologians.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Trinity question
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2010, 11:28:51 PM »

"Trinity" the word comes from Theology.  The word is not in English translatations of the Scripture.  There is no Greek or Hebrew word that means "Trinity".  It's the name of a Doctrine, like "Transubstantiation" or "Immaculate Conception".  Doctrines are the province of Theologians.  I don't know when the term was invented, but it was invented by a Theologian.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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