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Author Topic: Best approach  (Read 3774 times)

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mharrell08

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Best approach
« on: August 30, 2010, 03:40:06 PM »

'In the Multitude of Counselors, There is Safety' [Prov 11:14, 24:6]

Hello All:

If you have someone who is opening to listening to the Truths of God, what do you believe is the best approach? What subject/doctrine would you start with and from what passages?

I ask this because I was talking with someone who, is a believer, and has a preacher that is open with talking with him. This believer does not believe the preacher is looking to debate, just to genuinely discuss the Word.

I'm pretty sure most of us cross paths with others who 'want to know what we believe'...how would you begin?



Marques
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Kat

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2010, 05:42:28 PM »


Hi Marques,

An approach that I might use would be to give Scriptures proofs on a subect and discuss what they mean to you before I even stated what I was referring to. Because if you ask or state the subject to start with, if they do not believe this (like we have no free will, the church is apostate, even there is no hell), you have already allowed them to consider what they already believe, as to it being right or wrong. Now you have an up hill battle because of their preconcieved ideas. Of course you will still have to show them how what they believe is wrong, but you have already got them to see it's true and that should have them thinkig about it in more of a positive light.

That is what Ray does in some of his articles, like the one 'Who is the Beast?'  Ray gives all the Scriptual proofs and builds it up to where the conclusion is obvious, we are the beast.

Of course having someone that is interested is half the battle. But laying out the Scriptures to start with seems like a good idea, then you are not trying to convince them you are right, but that the Scriptures you just showed them are.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2010, 05:49:06 PM »

A person may be open to believing the love of God precludes eternal torment, but be such a 'bible-believer' that he or she can't see HOW Jesus can do such a thing in SCRIPTURE.  

We hold to the gospel and make our stand.  The enemy can attack and retreat in any direction.  It really takes a very thorough falling of the house for a preacher, of all people, to believe the gospel, and that's why we have to study to show ourselves approved, ready to give an answer, giving no thought as to what we shall say (because it's in us deep enough to be conversation).

I think the most honorable way to 'begin' this conversation is the way it 'ends'.  With the focus on Jesus as Lord, and every tongue (truly, wholly, willingly) confessing that.  How things get to that point is the plan of salvation.  

Just musings.  Maybe mildly helpful.

In a practical sense, I wouldn't go without being armed with the work Ray has already done.

(Kat replied while I was typing.  I think what she said is key, and is what I tried to say in the beginning of this post.)    



  
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2010, 05:59:30 PM »

The preacher has a foundation of indoctrination or they will not be in a preaching capacity in one of the Synagogues of Satan.  Just know the facts if you are to enter this battle field. ;)

They think they are right. What you need to do is correct their perception. A slight change can make a huge difference. Go for just a little bit of difference and use uncontestable Scriptures on the word Hades.

1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Show how the mis-translations have caused imperfections and this” little error” has produced hundreds of years of error, robbing us of our spiritual wonder and love and accurate, and more accurate understanding of our God.

Arc
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Marky Mark

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2010, 06:11:09 PM »

Quote
If you have someone who is opening to listening to the Truths of God, what do you believe is the best approach? What subject/doctrine would you start with and from what passages?

  Hey Marques.

   I would ask that person what was on their mind that would make them open for discussion. If someone is beginning to lose their faith in babylonian doctrine because of a strong desire to learn the Truth,then subject matter would be whatever that person would care to discuss. With that in mind, I would then print out whatever interest he may care to discuss, from Rays work, and give that to him. Then if the Spirit is leading him to unclogged ears, I'm then sure you would be the first to know. At least that way you can come from a familiar starting point. God will do the rest...  ;D


Peace...Mark
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Linny

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2010, 06:36:56 PM »

Personally, I think the best thing is to state a few things that you believe (without attitude or judgement) and allow the other person to ask you questions about why. Then you can bring up scriptures that back up what you believe and answer to scriptures they have been taught that "contradict" it to show that they do not.

Also, I think that talking about how the church has taught doctrines with no scripture backing is another good opener. Like the trinity, the rapture, having to believe before you die. All things taught as truth but where is the scripture?
When dealing with a pastor, whom my husband discussed some things with, he asked him questions about the above. Like, "Is there a scripture that says we must confess BEFORE we die?" This was my BIL who has his doctorate in theology. Of course, he said, "No there isn't."
"Show me the trinity in scripture." "Show me the rapture in scripture." Not there.
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soberxp

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2010, 07:09:49 PM »

'In the Multitude of Counselors, There is Safety' [Prov 11:14, 24:6]

Hello All:
I'm pretty sure most of us cross paths with others who 'want to know what we believe'...how would you begin?
Marques

l would suggest that you try this:"If living on the earth is a mission from the lord… teaching and learning is the award of the lord…… "
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Samson

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2010, 07:35:55 PM »

'In the Multitude of Counselors, There is Safety' [Prov 11:14, 24:6]

Hello All:

If you have someone who is opening to listening to the Truths of God, what do you believe is the best approach? What subject/doctrine would you start with and from what passages?

I ask this because I was talking with someone who, is a believer, and has a preacher that is open with talking with him. This believer does not believe the preacher is looking to debate, just to genuinely discuss the Word.

I'm pretty sure most of us cross paths with others who 'want to know what we believe'...how would you begin?



Marques

Hi Marques,

                This is the type of Thread that I enjoy becoming a part of. Your Question at face value appears simple, but the approach made to the various types of people We encounter may differ tremendously. Allot would depend on how well and how much you know about a particular person, their backround: Religious, Cultural, personality type, likes and dislikes and what their interests are. Although Humans not having Free Will and the Sovereignty of God are the most important, usually I don't begin by explaining anything about these concepts initially, gradually I will work some of these concepts into the discussion. Most of the time I begin explaining that God is Love, Love never Fails, Jesus was sent to be the Savior of the World, Jesus is a propitiatory sacrifice for not us only, but the whole World. I attempt to explain some of the Greek Terms, not too many, as to overwhelm. For instance I explain how "never, none, not" are from "ou' te, root ou and how there cannot be any instance where God's Love ever fails; He desires or Wills that none perish. I try to emphasize that people tend to look at God as barely above the capability of Humans, but when He desires, wills or wants something to happen, it has to, unlike puny imperfect Humans who desire something and might never get it.

          I try to keep the approach as simple as possible waiting for questions from the person I'm conversing with. Since most people believe in some sort of "Eternal Punishment," I stress that nobody gets away with sinning and committing injustices against other people, but God's punishments(Kolasin-chastisement) and Judgements are with a view to Correcting and Benefiting the one receiving it and are not Endless. So the erroneous concept of "Eternal" is explained to them. How far I go in explaining these things depends on the reaction of the individual. Just by getting to know someone, I can usually tell whether or not I should even bring up anything dealing with Bible related Topics. Usually, the more Religiously Orthodox and set in their ways. (USUALLY)

         Some Forum Members might conclude that since God is the one who has to CAUSE someone to accept and believe the truths We've learned, it doesn't make any difference or We shouldn't bother to spread this message, However, Our planting a seed of Truth might eventually be the CAUSE that leads to them embracing the Universal message of Salvation for All, because We don't know the End from the Beginning and We don't know what Tomorrow might bring, even though God does. Below are Two Examples of people that I've conversed with and alittle bit about what transpired to illustrate what might happen based on an individuals mind set and heart attitude.

Note: The names mentioned below are not their real names, in case they eventually become guests)

Example # 1( A Man name Star Wars believes the King James Bible, takes most of the Bible physical and literal, has a general working knowledge of verses, believes in a physical Hell and Heaven. When discussing the Bible and mentioning what a word means in the Greek, responds by saying: " I don't speak Greek." Doesn't accept other translations, He actually quit a Denomination because they switched translations. Only believers will be saved, regardless if their sinning machines. Obsessed with Homosexual Sins, but minimizes other Sexual Sins like Adultery and Premarital Sex. Basically this is His pattern. He believed an unplugged television transmitted a message telling Him to quit smoking, I guess Angelic direction. Why wouldn't an unplugged television tell someone that it's wrong to commit Adultery. Apparently, I learned not to mention Bible related topics with this individual, He doesn't want anyone to tell Him anything and in most cases is not open to any agreement, even with ample Scriptural proof presented to Him.)

Comment: My conversations with the above person took place over 1 1/2 years ago and since then I haven't mentioned anything Bible related. Whenever He mentions anything Biblical unsound, I  remain silent eventually changing the subject and we get along fine.

Example #2 ( Davis, a fellow workmate moans and groans about the injustices and inconsistencies in Life and enjoys hearing about some of the message. Usually, I explain to Him about the experience of Evil and how God has given Mankind an experience of Evil to humble them and how we learn from experiencing contrasts in Life. This is how God is creating us in His image and it's a process. He recognizes that He's learned from experiences relating to His bad temper and lack of self control and He's improved in that area through His suffering and trials. I told Him that God is pruning Him and correcting Him. He has received physical problems as a result of His uncontrolled anger(Extremely high blood pressure disorder). Davis seems to appreciate the Scriptures, but doesn't ask too many questions, does more listening than anything, but is probably more of a sounding board for me. He's a very nice and decent guy, wish everybody I worked with was like Him. He Loves to talk about past experiences and that's when I incorporate some Bible Truths into the discussion.)

   I could definitely continue with more examples, but I probably wrote too much. If someone is detected as stubborn and arrogant about their beliefs, not open to reason or lacks any interest, I will only talk to them about things that have nothing to do with the bible, unless they ask me a specific sincere question. With almost everybody that's willing to listen, I begin with Ray's Foundational Truths type stuff gradually incorporating the " We don't have free Will points," God is Sovereign. Punishment is Corrective and not endless. The word IS indicates a state of being. If you IS something, you can't be a percentage less than that when referring to God. God IS Spirit; God IS Love, Jesus IS the Savior of the whole World, Jesus IS the propitiatory sacrifice for the Whole World. I usually start with these truths eventually incorporating the additional truths, but try to keep it simple, especially early on. I don't want them to get indigestion,  ;). All We can do is plant the Seed, but only God can make it grow.

                              Interesting Thread, Samson.
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Samson

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2010, 07:53:45 PM »


Hi Marques,

An approach that I might use would be to give Scriptures proofs on a subect and discuss what they mean to you before I even stated what I was referring to. Because if you ask or state the subject to start with, if they do not believe this (like we have no free will, the church is apostate, even there is no hell), you have already allowed them to consider what they already believe, as to it being right or wrong. Now you have an up hill battle because of their preconcieved ideas. Of course you will still have to show them how what they believe is wrong, but you have already got them to see it's true and that should have them thinkig about it in more of a positive light.

That is what Ray does in some of his articles, like the one 'Who is the Beast?'  Ray gives all the Scriptual proofs and builds it up to where the conclusion is obvious, we are the beast.

Of course having someone that is interested is half the battle. But laying out the Scriptures to start with seems like a good idea, then you are not trying to convince them you are right, but that the Scriptures you just showed them are.

mercy, peace and love
Kat



Hi Kat,

I especially like your first paragraph, ask them what it means to them, don't bring up the mainstays of their Orthodox Beliefs. I would like to add that we shouldn't criticize their beliefs, just tell them what's True. If your focus is on attacking their beliefs and criticizing their beliefs, they take it personally, usually feeling your attacking them, considering them stupid. He who is convinced against His Will, Is of the same opinion still(Ray said that).

                               Appreciated Your Comment, Samson.
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Roy Coates

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2010, 12:01:08 AM »

So far all the responses are spot on. For me I would say that there is no one approach. As each encounter is different in many aspects. I think it important to discover what subject the other party is exploring and go from there.
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aqrinc

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2010, 01:25:34 AM »

'In the Multitude of Counselors, There is Safety' [Prov 11:14, 24:6]

Hello All:

If you have someone who is opening to listening to the Truths of God, what do you believe is the best approach? What subject/doctrine would you start with and from what passages?

I ask this because I was talking with someone who, is a believer, and has a preacher that is open with talking with him. This believer does not believe the preacher is looking to debate, just to genuinely discuss the Word.

I'm pretty sure most of us cross paths with others who 'want to know what we believe'...how would you begin?

Marques

Marques,

Below is the order i would use for having a frank and open discussion with an inquiring mind.

Quote
from marky mark
I would ask that person what was on their mind that would make them open for discussion. If someone is beginning to lose their faith in babylonian doctrine because of a strong desire to learn the Truth,then subject matter would be whatever that person would care to discuss.

For me I would say that there is no one approach. As each encounter is different in many aspects. I think it important to discover what subject the other party is exploring and go from there.

Quote
from Soberxp
l would suggest that you try this:"If living on the earth is a mission from the lord… teaching and learning is the award of the lord.

george :).
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Stacey

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2010, 03:38:40 AM »

I would start with common ground or what seems like common understanding.

John 3:16 & 17

IF, we can get past these very familar verses and the mighty truth in them then from there the discussion might get really interesting.
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Stacey

Shawn Fainn

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2010, 04:51:13 PM »

Was maybe thinking of a focus on what happens when we die; that we are truly dead.

It's pretty simple to prove with Scriptures. Then after that, it would be easy to go on to other subjects..
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EKnight

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2010, 11:22:28 PM »

I don't want to sound flip, but it can be simple.

I say:

1 Cor. 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

1Jn_4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

And then I say, I believe and trust that God knows what He is doing.  Far be it for me to question God's methods. 

I have also said; how is it that Adam and Eve were "created" in the image and likeness of their creator if they sinned?  It does not matter that the serpent deceived, God cannot be deceived nor can he sin. Therefore, we were not created as such, but rather are being created or formed into the image and likeness or our Creator.  This takes time and "longsuffering" as Christ learned obedience through suffering so shall we since we will be like him. 

Of course I never have chapter and verse on the tip of my tongue but usually they are already well versed just not well taught.

Read between the lines, and that's it in a nutshell.

Eileen
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GaryK

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2010, 04:01:54 PM »

Recently a friend and I were discussing church teachings in conversation to pass the time. He brought up satan the ‘converted’ good angel.  I countered with satan the creation doing as God created him to do.  That part of the conversation didn’t last long.   

We discussed ‘free-will’ and how it is the key ingredient and genesis for ‘accepting’ Jesus as lord and savior.  I countered with John 6:44 and asked who’s ‘in charge’ in the verse?  That part of the conversation ended quickly, as well.

Who knows the ‘best’ approach, I suppose it depends on the preconceived notions and teachings.   Maybe this wouldn’t be the best paper to discuss from Ray’s collection, seeing as it’s with a ‘preacher’ to have a discussion.   But if it’s with someone who is becoming disconcerted with the ‘church’:


The Lake of Fire - Part VIII
WHERE IS THE CHURCH THAT JESUS BUILT?

And particularly:
PAUL SAW THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL
ADULTERATING HUCKSTERS OF GOD’S WORD
MODERN TV RELIGIOUS SIDESHOW AUCTIONEERS
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2010, 04:07:23 PM »

Well said, Gary.  I had to smile at your 'coversations'.  Mine also usually have one of two endings--quickly and badly.

Welcome aboard. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

margo

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2010, 04:59:07 PM »

Gary,
Thank you for your statement, "satan the creation doing as God created him to do" that helped me.  I don't know if that will help others when I talk to them, they just want to defend their being accountable to the church leaders and who am I?  I am out there alone without any accountability.  That is what I am up against.  Praise the Lord.  Margo
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GaryK

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2010, 05:23:21 PM »

Thank you Dave for the welcome.

And you're welcome Margo.   

That said, this 'conversation' with my friend was at his beckon, not mine.   He flauntingly started the conversation with his hyped up knowledge to show off and in hopes of bringing me out, so to speak.   He was looking for a 'convert'.   He was disappointed.

I don't normally approach anyone and I understand what you're saying about 'defending'.  Been there, done that.  Nowadays, if God sends'em, I'll talk a little.  If they're REAL interested in the truth I'll whip out Ray's BT address.   If they want to argue, I'll let them argue with Ray.  Other than that, I'm more than sloppy-pig-happy reading Ray's papers over and over.
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Shawn Fainn

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2010, 05:37:41 PM »

Thank you Dave for the welcome.

And you're welcome Margo.   

That said, this 'conversation' with my friend was at his beckon, not mine.   He flauntingly started the conversation with his hyped up knowledge to show off and in hopes of bringing me out, so to speak.   He was looking for a 'convert'.   He was disappointed.

I don't normally approach anyone and I understand what you're saying about 'defending'.  Been there, done that.  Nowadays, if God sends'em, I'll talk a little.  If they're REAL interested in the truth I'll whip out Ray's BT address.   If they want to argue, I'll let them argue with Ray.  Other than that, I'm more than sloppy-pig-happy reading Ray's papers over and over.

I lol'd at that part.

Even though Ray probably has more useful ways to spend his time, he definitely seems good at replying to those who want to prove him wrong.
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soberxp

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Re: Best approach
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2010, 02:56:52 PM »

eye for eye..............word for word

Did scientist really say, 'You must not read from any part in the bible'? and you must not touch it, or you will die ? did you really believe in evolution theory,For scientist knows that when you read of bible your eyes will be opened,and most scientists really read bible, since you knowing Adam and Eve,most scientists  really want to know why the serpent said :"You will not surely die ."
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 02:57:54 PM by soberxp »
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