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Author Topic: There is no such thing as born in sin?  (Read 2417 times)

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zee325

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There is no such thing as born in sin?
« on: September 09, 2010, 05:24:35 AM »

I was reading the topic below:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4928.0.html

Excerpt: "You might suggest that Adam's sin was PASSED ON to all men. No it wasn't. DEATH was passed on, not SIN (Rom. 5:12)."

I was shocked I did not catch this before. All my Christian life I was taught and believed firmly that we were born in sin. I have never ever doubted that I was born in sin, it is in my nature to sin. It surely feels like it! I would like to study this more carefully. Is there any more material on the subject in Ray's papers? If it is in the LOF papers I certainly did not catch it, (I am sure there is a lot more I didn't catch). Wow, another Christian false doctrine?

I immediately thought of one more scripture, but under the new light it looks like it's talking about the mother's sin when conceived and shaped the baby, not that the baby was born in sin.
(Psa 51:5)  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

However I am still not quite certain about Rom 5:12:
(Rom 5:12)  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
So if by one man (Adam, right?) sin entered into the world, would it be wrong to assume that by Adam sin entered into me and you and everyone born of Adam?

Please help!

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Kat

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Re: There is no such thing as born in sin?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 10:44:07 AM »


Hi Zee,

Here is an email that should help with your question.

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm ----------

                                              [Ray Replies]

As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."

The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?

Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.

Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.

Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:

"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?"  Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.

Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?"   NO! "...for that ALL have sinned."  All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."

A better translation helps our understanding:

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."

They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"

But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD."  Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).

God be with you,

Ray

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Jam 4:14 " whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

Samson

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Re: There is no such thing as born in sin?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 10:55:22 AM »

Hi Zee,

            A paragraph quoted from your Post:[color=blHowever I am still not quite certain about Rom 5:12:
(Rom 5:12)  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
So if by one man (Adam, right?) sin entered into the world, would it be wrong to assume that by Adam sin entered into me and you and everyone born of Adam?

No Zee, the teaching of original Sin is false, We(That's everybody) are not responsible for Adams Sin, an Infant has no original Sin in Him or Her. Actually, God is responsible for everything, including Sin, but each individual is Accountible for their Sins, becase they desire to Sin.

   Through one Man Sin entered into the World(This part of the verse just says Sin entered into the world, it doesn't say we(that's us) are sinners too. Then death spread to all Men(Death spread to all Men, not Sin) and why did death spread to all Men, because all sinned. Romans. 5:12 examined.

Zee, I remember thinking many years ago that it didn't seem logical or fair that I supposedly inherited sin from Adam, but I didn't have a Scriptural explanation. To me, it never made sense: It's like blaming your Dog for what the Cat did wrong.

                                         Kind Regards, Samson.
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Stacey

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Re: There is no such thing as born in sin?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2010, 12:08:32 PM »

We die because we are mortal. Thanks to Adam.

We sin because we are 'sinning machines' - L. Ray Smith
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Stacey

santikos

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Re: There is no such thing as born in sin?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 12:17:56 PM »

 i was born 1)crying and 2)dying. ;D  but not sinning
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: There is no such thing as born in sin?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2010, 12:44:40 PM »

Hi see325, you ask:



What is the indication here by the "sin" of the world instead the "sins" of the world?


Zee

Notice that the word sin, also appears as the plural sins 78 times. Joh 1:29  The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin (G266) of the world!

G266
ἁμαρτία
hamartia
Total KJV Occurrences: 174
sin, 94
Mat_12:31, Joh_1:29, Joh_8:34 (2), Joh_8:46, Joh_9:41 (2), Joh_15:22 (2), Joh_15:24, Joh_16:8-9 (2), Joh_19:11, Act_7:60, Rom_3:9, Rom_3:20, Rom_4:8, Rom_5:12-13 (4), Rom_5:20-21 (2), Rom_6:1-2 (2), Rom_6:6-7 (3), Rom_6:10-14 (5), Rom_6:16-18 (3), Rom_6:20, Rom_6:22-23 (2), Rom_7:7-9 (5), Rom_7:11, Rom_7:13-14 (4), Rom_7:17, Rom_7:20, Rom_7:23, Rom_7:25, Rom_8:2-3 (3), Rom_8:10, Rom_14:23, 1Co_15:56 (2), 2Co_5:21 (2), Gal_2:17, Gal_3:22, 2Th_2:3, Heb_3:13, Heb_4:15, Heb_9:26, Heb_9:28, Heb_10:6, Heb_10:8, Heb_10:18, Heb_11:25, Heb_12:1, Heb_12:4, Heb_13:11, Jam_1:15 (2), Jam_2:9, Jam_4:17, 1Pe_2:22, 1Pe_4:1, 2Pe_2:14, 1Jo_1:7-8 (2), 1Jo_3:4-5 (3), 1Jo_3:8-9 (2), 1Jo_5:16-17 (4)
sins, 78
Mat_1:21, Mat_3:6, Mat_9:2, Mat_9:5-6 (2), Mat_26:28, Mar_2:4-5 (3), Mar_2:7, Mar_2:9-10 (2), Luk_1:77, Luk_3:3, Luk_5:20-21 (2), Luk_5:23-24 (2), Luk_7:47-49 (3), Luk_11:4, Luk_24:47, Joh_8:21, Joh_8:24 (2), Joh_9:34, Joh_20:23, Act_2:38, Act_3:19, Act_5:31, Act_10:43, Act_13:38, Act_22:16, Act_26:18, Rom_4:7, Rom_7:5, Rom_11:27, 1Co_15:3, 1Co_15:17, Gal_1:4, Eph_2:1, Col_1:14, Col_2:11, 1Th_2:16, 1Ti_5:22, 1Ti_5:24, 2Ti_3:6, Heb_1:3, Heb_2:17, Heb_5:1, Heb_5:3, Heb_7:27, Heb_8:12, Heb_9:28, Heb_10:2-4 (3), Heb_10:11-12 (2), Heb_10:17, Heb_10:26, Jam_5:15, Jam_5:20, 1Pe_2:24 (2), 1Pe_3:18, 1Pe_4:8, 2Pe_1:9, 1Jo_1:9 (2), 1Jo_2:2, 1Jo_2:12, 1Jo_3:5, 1Jo_4:10, Rev_1:5, Rev_18:4-5 (2)
offence, 1
2Co_11:7
sinful, 1
Rom_8:3  Ref e-sword :)

Arc
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 12:47:03 PM by Arcturus »
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Marky Mark

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Re: There is no such thing as born in sin?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2010, 01:01:18 PM »

One more thing I am not sure about:

(Joh 1:29)  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

What is the indication here by the "sin" of the world instead the "sins" of the world?
(I believe this is their base for the concept of a "collective sin" of the whole world, a sin nature or original sin)

Zee

Jas 2:10  If you obey every law except one, you are still guilty of breaking them all.

Peace...Mark
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soberxp

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Re: There is no such thing as born in sin?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2010, 03:32:01 AM »

Romans -  5:18
kjv:Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
niv:Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men
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