intensity of the 'lake of fire'/intensity of chastisement

[GaryK]

We are all so very...........blessed.  



My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge

because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hos 4:6

From:

Rays Replies to 'Flesh that profits nothing?'on: March 17, 2006, 09:51:28 AM

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are
spirit, and [they] are life. [John 6:63]

Does our flesh profit nothing?  Was the design of mans physical body and his experiences to mean nothing?

[Ray's reply]

"Jesus did not say that there is no value to our physical experience. What He said was that the experience itself is NOT THE PROFIT ITSELF.  ........   Maybe our biggest spiritual example of this is: "Come OUT of her, My people...." (Rev. 18:4). If there is "profit" to be had from being IN Babylon, then perhaps we should all go BACK IN?  No, Babylon is about as fleshly and worldly as anything could ever be, and Babylon BENEFITS NOTHING, so "Come OUT OF HER My people...." The BENEFITS are IN CHRIST, OUT OF Babylon, out of the flesh and the world."

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.0.html



From LOF Part 1


"Don't get me wrong, there will be severe chastisements on those who despise God and His Savior and His Gospel.

Make no mistake, God will judge the wicked with great severity. However, ALWAYS FOR A BENEVOLENT PURPOSE:"

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html



From:

THE LAKE OF FIRE, Installment XV - Part D, The Myth of Free-Will Exposed, EVERYTHING HAS A PRECISE APPOINTED TIME

"Not only is our precise time of death appointed, but also our resurrection:

"If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my APPOINTED TIME will I wait [in the grave] till my change [resurrection] come" (Job 14:14)."



Here's what has been trying to work itself through my mind for a better understanding.

We study, just as Paul instructed Timothy to do also.  And we delight in the knowledge that God has so blessed us all with through Ray's writings and teachings.  Such a blessing they are.

But, we don't 'despise God", yet even still, we don't make it as one of the 'chosen', the 1st resurrection.   Of ourselves we can do nothing.  That's preordained of God, I understand that. 

But, if into the lake of fire we go.................even though we have gained 'knowledge'........does somehow this true knowledge that we have been given lighten the intensity in the 'lake of fire'?

And if so, will there be varying 'resurrection' times?  Or just simply the 2nd resurrection?

It appears so from Job 14:14.

I certainly may not be seeing or understanding correctly and would appreciate a different viewpoint(s). If this has been addressed, point the way please.


gk
.

[mharrell08]

We all understand that the Lake of Fire is not a literal fire, but a metaphor for how God makes us into His image. We face pressure in our lives which God uses to refine our moral character, similar to a blacksmith who refines metal objects and other minerals in real fire. We all know that, but.......

How come, whenever someone asks about the LOF in the next age, they still talk as if it is a literal fire? 

Gary, I believe if we begin to think about us going through our LOF experience, we can better understand the next age, because that's the only living example we have to go on. Think about what makes it tough now, how God makes it tough now, His ways and means of making it tough now and that should help in understanding the LOF in the next age. Just a thought...



Marques

[Kat]

Hi Gary,

will there be varying 'resurrection' times?  Or just simply the 2nd resurrection?

Matt 25:31  "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
v. 32  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
v. 33  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

From this Scripture it appears to me that the first and the second resurrection happen close together or in rapid succession.

I have seen no where in the Scripture that indicates that the second resurrection is more than a single event. We can see many times in the Scripture "the resurrection of the dead," not the resurrections of the dead, (Mat 22:31; Acts 17:32; Acts 23:6; Acts 24:15, 21; Rom 1:4; 1 Cor 15:12,13,21,42; Heb 6:2). So it looks like all the dead are raised at virtually the same time, of course those in the first resurrection comes before those in the second.

But, if into the lake of fire we go.................even though we have gained 'knowledge'........does somehow this true knowledge that we have been given lighten the intensity in the 'lake of fire'?

Luke 12:47  And that servant, who knew his lord's will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes;
v. 48  but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more.

Certainly God is just (Isa 45:21), and Luke gives you some idea that there are degrees to punishment. But we also know that the Lake of 'fire' will try everyone's works/deeds/actions as to whether they are good or bad. So I think the Lake of fire is a character check.

1Co 3:13  each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So the Lake of fire is for developing righteous character and if you already have (from this life) good character traits, you keep them and I would think you are that much further along.

So that is my way of looking at it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Marky Mark]

But, if into the lake of fire we go.................even though we have gained 'knowledge'........does somehow this true knowledge that we have been given lighten the intensity in the 'lake of fire'?

Hello Gary.

If you are one of the Lords chosen elect,He will not fail,its already a done deal.But if you are not of the elect,then the LOF is where all will go who are not of the elect. That LOF is Christ and His elect.

You have to keep the Faith,always.Because if the Truth that one receives is not put to use,many stripes can and will happen in the fire that purifies the person that has to learn Gods Truth.That is why we have to run the race like our lives depend on it,because,it does. Spirit is life[the real deal],flesh is death[for a season,temporal].That in and of itself is a hard pill for the world to swallow.

Luk 12:44  A servant who is always faithful will surely be put in charge of everything the master owns.
Luk 12:45  But suppose one of the servants thinks that the master won't return until late. Suppose that servant starts beating all the other servants and eats and drinks and gets drunk.
Luk 12:46  If that happens, the master will come on a day and at a time when the servant least expects him. That servant will then be punished and thrown out with the servants who cannot be trusted.
Luk 12:47  If servants are not ready or willing to do what their master wants them to do, they will be beaten hard.
Luk 12:48  But servants who don't know what their master wants them to do will not be beaten so hard for doing wrong. If God has been generous with you, he will expect you to serve him well. But if he has been more than generous, he will expect you to serve him even better.
Luk 12:49  I came to set fire to the earth, and I wish it were already on fire!
Luk 12:50  I am going to be put to a hard test. And I will have to suffer a lot of pain until it is over.


Hope this helps.


Peace...Mark

[GaryK]

Hi Marques,

"How come, whenever someone asks about the LOF in the next age, they still talk as if it is a literal fire?    "

Because:

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

(Have you seen my new shoes?  How do they look?  I think they fit, what do you think?) 

"Think about what makes it tough now, how God makes it tough now, His ways and means of making it tough now"

I do Marques, see below.



Hi Kat,

"not the resurrections of the dead"

's'.

I suppose I could reply more based on what you've written.  But why?  The 's' made the difference in understanding.   Thank you Kat.



Hi Mark,

You just made my reading schedule for the weekend, the book of Luke.   But, what you've written here is intense in itself.   A hard pill as you say.



Perhaps I'm taking the below just a bit too literal:

"When the spiritual house that we all build falls down with a 'GREAT FALL.' When (notice I did not say, 'IF')...when our spiritual house built upon the spiritual sand falls, WE ARE LEFT STANDING ON THE SAND OF THE SEA. We are only INCHES above the very sea itself—the masses and multitudes of humanity who do not have any knowledge of God AT ALL. It doesn't mean that we have no knowledge of God at all at this quandary in our spiritual lives; it just means that we are no closer to God than all the humanity in the sea. Hence, we are not IN the sea, but rather standing on the SAND of the sea where out spiritual house just FELL!

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

and this:

"And I saw as it were a SEA OF GLASS mingled with FIRE [yes, the fire of God's spirit is a necessary part of this 'sea of glass']: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass [ah, they too can now walk on water which is now smooth and calm as glass], having the harps of God"

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

I suppose the explanation that fits is that I sometimes have doubts that God is working these 'tough life events' to mold this particular individual to be included in the 1st resurrection, resulting in the inevitable question.....then what?     Hence, this topic.     I see so very many folks who have such a tough walk in life and I feel so much empathy for them and look at my own little challenges and think 'what a complainer I am'. 

Hope this all contributes more sense for the topic start.

Thankful for the truth.  Have a great weekend.

gk

[mharrell08]

Hi Marques,

"How come, whenever someone asks about the LOF in the next age, they still talk as if it is a literal fire?    "

Because:

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

(Have you seen my new shoes?  How do they look?  I think they fit, what do you think?) 

Just trying to keep it light Gary, that's all.

I suppose the explanation that fits is that I sometimes have doubts that God is working these 'tough life events' to mold this particular individual to be included in the 1st resurrection, resulting in the inevitable question.....then what?     Hence, this topic.     I see so very many folks who have such a tough walk in life and I feel so much empathy for them and look at my own little challenges and think 'what a complainer I am'. 

Hope this all contributes more sense for the topic start.

Thankful for the truth.  Have a great weekend.

gk

As far as your comments above, these passages come to mind:

1 Cor 10:12-13  Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

As God continues to develop your character, He will place more of His Judgments on you but never too much for you to bear. Judgment takes a lifetime so patience is required. We are to be 'perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect' but that happens over time.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[GaryK]

Hi Marques,

"How come, whenever someone asks about the LOF in the next age, they still talk as if it is a literal fire?    "

Because:

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

(Have you seen my new shoes?  How do they look?  I think they fit, what do you think?) 

Just trying to keep it light Gary, that's all.

I suppose the explanation that fits is that I sometimes have doubts that God is working these 'tough life events' to mold this particular individual to be included in the 1st resurrection, resulting in the inevitable question.....then what?     Hence, this topic.     I see so very many folks who have such a tough walk in life and I feel so much empathy for them and look at my own little challenges and think 'what a complainer I am'. 

Hope this all contributes more sense for the topic start.

Thankful for the truth.  Have a great weekend.

gk

As far as your comments above, these passages come to mind:

1 Cor 10:12-13  Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

As God continues to develop your character, He will place more of His Judgments on you but never too much for you to bear. Judgment takes a lifetime so patience is required. We are to be 'perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect' but that happens over time.


Hope this helps,

Marques

Hi Marques,

I know you were keeping it light, as was I.   

Thank you for your words.    They are encouraging, and appreciated.

gk

[lauriellen]

""You have to keep the Faith,always.Because if the Truth that one receives is not put to use,many stripes can and will happen in the fire that purifies the person that has to learn Gods Truth.That is why we have to run the race like our lives depend on it,because,it does. Spirit is life[the real deal],flesh is death[for a season,temporal].That in and of itself is a hard pill for the world to swallow. ""


just when i think i have the 'no free will' thing straight in my head, i read something like the above quote and it all gets crisscrossed in my mind again.
Either it is God GIVING  us the faith and God RUNNING THE RACE in us, or we are doing it ourselves by our own effort.....it can't be both ways.....how can we get many more stripes for 'not doing' something that is clearly IMPOSSIBLE for us to do on our own effort in the first place?!?
we can't even TRY to 'put to use' "what we are given" unless it is God giving us the WILL to do so, so why would be punished more for not doing what God did not intend us to do to start with?

[Kat]

Hi Laurieellen,

Here are a few more things that I pulled out that I think should help your understanding.

WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . . . Nashville Conference 2007

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ------------------

Well yes, it's like the old saying; act like it all depends on you and pray like it all depends on God.  That's the way you should live your life.  He could not help but pray. 

What appears to be contradictions are not contradictions, when you have a higher spiritual understanding of what it's talking about.  Let me show you a perfect example and it sounds like a contradiction, but it's not.
 
Phi 2:12  "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Doesn't that contradict this whole thing... we're saved by grace and not of works?  Now we're to work out our own salvation?  What is that?  How do you explain that "Of Myself I can do nothing" (John 5:30)?   And He said YOU can do nothing (John 15:5), to the apostles.  Then Paul says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."  Well it does sound like a contradiction.  But read the next verse and He tells us why.  "For" now that word always means 'because' or it's another word for because.

Phi 2:13  "For (because) it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

Some of you probably still don't get the answer, but it is there.  "Work out your own salvation," is not the gist of that saying.  He is not saying, work out your own salvation(.)  No, He's saying "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, that's where the emphases is, on fear and trembling, not on work out your own salvation.  

You work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, why?  Because it all depends on God!  If God doesn't do it, it won't happen, IT WON'T HAPPEN!  So we live in fear and trepidation.
v
It ALL depends on God, there's nothing you can do.  But YOU have to work it out.  YOU have to get up and go to work.  YOU have to do all this stuff.  
v
So God makes you live this life.  He makes you do all this, HE MAKES YOU DO IT.  But not against your will.  He puts you in circumstances and that's the only way you can go.  The ONLY way!

You think, 'I shouldn't have done this or that.'  That's right you should think that way.  You should think that... 'I shouldn't have done that,' because then you're learning.
 
When you learn, you will then put that into practice.  Because God doesn't have you learn things so you can't put them into practice.  He has you learn things so you CAN put them into practice.  But the only way you will learn them, is if you see how stupid it was, and you say if I had it to do over, I wouldn't have done that.  So YOU HAD TO DO THEM!  Because that lead to a lot of trouble and pain and sorrow.  But did you learn your lesson?  'Well yea.'  Then don't do it again okay, now their back on track.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2199.0.html ----------

COMMENT: "ALL is of God" (II Cor. 5:18, Rom. 11:36, etc.).  Salvation is incorporated into the process of living.  We are made to live.  We have to live.  We HAVE to make decisions and choices in life:  it is forced upon us by the very nature of things.  But although we are made to live out our individual experiences of life, behind it all is God.  We "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling," not because we have the ability to do so independent of God, but rather because of what we are told in the next verse:  "For [for means BECAUSE--here is the REASON we work out our own salvation]...For it is GOD which workies in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
   
   God be with you,
   Ray

[lauriellen]

thanks Kat.....i am always amazed at Ray's writings....like an endless spring of living water.....=).....

[Marky Mark]

lauriellen,I hope Kats reply was enough to give some peace to you.Lord knows we can always use more in our journey. 


Peace...Mark

[gmik]

Marques....the LOF is a metaphor....has Ray taught on the GWT judgement as a metaphor?? Is the 1,000 year eon a metaphor as well??

The by-line of this thread is the intensity....I think deep down I have always wondered/worried about how painful and scary the LOF is going to be...its what keeps Babylon in line I think.

Lots of good thoughts in this thread.

[mharrell08]

Marques....the LOF is a metaphor....has Ray taught on the GWT judgement as a metaphor?? Is the 1,000 year eon a metaphor as well??

The by-line of this thread is the intensity....I think deep down I have always wondered/worried about how painful and scary the LOF is going to be...its what keeps Babylon in line I think.

Lots of good thoughts in this thread.

Gmik,

Yes Gmik, everything in the book of Revelation is a metaphor/symbolism.

For example, we read throughout the scriptures of 'God's throne' but God is not a man. He doesn't need or have to sit down. It's just a metaphor that speaks of His rulership.

The same with the '1000 period'...it's a metaphor of the Day of the Lord. As Paul taught, 'that Day' does not come except there be a 'falling away first' and the 'man of sin' be revealed [2 Thess 2:3]. Once you recognize the beast within, that's when the Day of the Lord comes upon you quickly [Rev 2:5, 16; 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20].

Also, the intensity or severity of the LOF is SPIRITUAL, just as it's judgments are. It's intangible, nothing one sees outwardly. Think about how the Lord convicts you of your trespasses. We have a heavy heart now, in this age, when convicted...think how you/I/us would feel in the next age face to face? Peter wept 'bitterly' for his transgression [denying the Lord 3 times] and no one even touched him.


Just a couple of thoughts,

Marques

[GaryK]

Marques....the LOF is a metaphor....has Ray taught on the GWT judgement as a metaphor?? Is the 1,000 year eon a metaphor as well??

The by-line of this thread is the intensity....I think deep down I have always wondered/worried about how painful and scary the LOF is going to be...its what keeps Babylon in line I think.

Lots of good thoughts in this thread.

Gmik,

Yes Gmik, everything in the book of Revelation is a metaphor/symbolism.

For example, we read throughout the scriptures of 'God's throne' but God is not a man. He doesn't need or have to sit down. It's just a metaphor that speaks of His rulership.

The same with the '1000 period'...it's a metaphor of the Day of the Lord. As Paul taught, 'that Day' does not come except there be a 'falling away first' and the 'man of sin' be revealed [2 Thess 2:3]. Once you recognize the beast within, that's when the Day of the Lord comes upon you quickly [Rev 2:5, 16; 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20].

Also, the intensity or severity of the LOF is SPIRITUAL, just as it's judgments are. It's intangible, nothing one sees outwardly. Think about how the Lord convicts you of your trespasses. We have a heavy heart now, in this age, when convicted...think how you/I/us would feel in the next age face to face? Peter wept 'bitterly' for his transgression [denying the Lord 3 times] and no one even touched him.[/b]Just a couple of thoughts,

Marques

Thank you Marques.    That's a great help to me as well.

gk

[Kat]

Hi Gena,

Here is a bit from the article 'God Judges the World in a Pond.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html --------------------------

THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!

The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ's divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).

And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire
v
We have already proved that "the fire shall try every man's work" in I Cor. 3:13 is a spiritual match with Rev. 20:13 & 15 where "they were judged every man according to their works ... in the lake of fire" And in both cases the "fire" is God's SPIRIT. God's spirit burns spiritual character flaws out of the hearts of mankind in a similar way in which literal fire burns up and abolishes wood, straw, and stubble. And since we are the Body of Christ and we too are made "flames of fire," then we also judge the deeds of men's hearts.
v
This is the lesson we are to learn from God's spiritual fire. Spiritual fire will purify good qualities to total perfection but will obliterate character flaws to total extinction. And so it is that God uses spiritual fire to produce the greatest possible good, not to cause the severest possible pain and torture.
--------------------------------------------------------

At this time the wicked are running amuck, it seems lke they are just getting away with their sinful deeds. But there is coming a day/time of reckoning, when all shall have to give account. The Lake of fire is God's judgments on the earth, but it will be done in equity, as God is a just God.

Rom 2:5  But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
v. 6  who "will render to each one according to his deeds":

When you hear of God's wrath it is a fearful thing, because when Christ rules there will be nowhere for the wicked to hide. It is His adversaries/enemies those that have maligned His truth that should be fearful.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Nah 1:2  God is jealous, and the LORD avenges;
      The LORD avenges and is furious.
      The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries,
      And He reserves wrath for His enemies;
v. 3  The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
      And will not at all acquit the wicked.

But all people on the earth will be under judgment to live righteously, even if you are not a religious person, all people must obey or come under His correction. When a person's heart is laid bare and their true thoughts and feelings are exposed, all will be under some degree of condemnation. But correction will be according to each person's deeds.

when Christ is ruling people will not be able to get away with their evil ways, there will be no secret hidding place that you can hide from this coming judgment. People will be judged by the spirit of the law, what is in a person's heart. So they will be getting correction before they even have a chance to murder, commit adultry, steal or any such thing.

Rom 2:6  For he will render to every man according to his works:
v. 8  but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
v. 9  tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

It is those who do not want to change from their evil ways, who are stubborn, that will taste His wrath.  But the people will learn how to obey, they will be in a situation where they really will have to, and the world will eventually be changed, made righteous and saved.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night,
      Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
      For when Your judgments are in the earth,
      The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[margo]

I need a little help.  When do the elect judge with Christ as flames of fire?  I know this is true, but not sure when.  I thought this was the 1,000 yrs or the Day of the Lord.  The elect in the 1st resurrection, then 1,000 yrs, satan bound, satan loosed, great white throne judgement, or resurrection to judgement.  I think I am a little confused now.  I see what Marques is saying about the Day of the Lord, 1,000 yrs.  So when do the elect judge with Christ?  I really need help with this.  Thank you,
Margo

[mharrell08]

I need a little help.  When do the elect judge with Christ as flames of fire?  I know this is true, but not sure when.  I thought this was the 1,000 yrs or the Day of the Lord.  The elect in the 1st resurrection, then 1,000 yrs, satan bound, satan loosed, great white throne judgement, or resurrection to judgement.  I think I am a little confused now.  I see what Marques is saying about the Day of the Lord, 1,000 yrs.  So when do the elect judge with Christ?  I really need help with this.  Thank you,
Margo

When the Lord returns at the sound of a Great Trumpet [Matt 24:31, 1 Cor 15:52] to gather His Elect AND raise the dead. That's when the Elect are changed and to begin judgment of the nations.



Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Margo

Also, if you consider Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection....is NOT Scripture! RIGHT! It's NOT Scripture! So defuse that little bit of confusing, error coated nonsence ~ just delete it ~  and God willing, Marques reply along with everyone elses, might make more sense!

Oh how we all have swollowed such errors in blind trust of man made doctrines of demons!

1Co 15:57  But thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory, through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Arc