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Uzziah's Leprosy
Marky Mark:
--- Quote --- [About Exodus 4, In my opinion, it was a vision, not a literal event. Kinda like the Mount of Transfiguration in Matt 17:1-9.]
--- End quote ---
Hi Christopher.
Was wondering why you think that it was a vision and not literal.In Matt 17 Jesus tells them that it was a vision,but in Exodus there is no mention of a vision or a witness to it being a vision. Just curious.
Peace...Mark
daywalker:
--- Quote from: Marky Mark on September 30, 2010, 10:46:13 AM ---
--- Quote --- [About Exodus 4, In my opinion, it was a vision, not a literal event. Kinda like the Mount of Transfiguration in Matt 17:1-9.]
--- End quote ---
Hi Christopher.
Was wondering why you think that it was a vision and not literal.In Matt 17 Jesus tells them that it was a vision,but in Exodus there is no mention of a vision or a witness to it being a vision. Just curious.
Peace...Mark
--- End quote ---
Hey Mark,
Sure, I'll share with you my thinking... First, Matthew 17:
1 And after six days Jesus is taking aside Peter and James and John, his brother, and is bringing them up into a high mountain, privately,
2 and was transformed in front of them. And His face shines as the sun, yet His garments became white as the light.
3 And lo! Moses and Elijah were seen by them, conferring with Him.
4 Now, answering, Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is ideal for us to be here! If Thou art willing, I shall be making three tabernacles here, for Thee one, and for Moses one, and for Elijah one."
5 While he is still speaking, lo! a luminous cloud overshadows them, and lo! a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, the Beloved, in Whom I delight. Hear Him!"
6 And, hearing it, the disciples fall on their faces and were tremendously afraid.
7 And Jesus approached and, touching them, said, "Be roused, and fear not!"
8 Now, lifting up their eyes, they perceived no one except Jesus Himself only.
COMMENT: Before continuing to the next verse, is there anything in the above section that would indicate that this was a vision and not a literal event? It doesn't seem like a vision. I mean, here's Jesus, Peter, James and John descending up into a mountain, and then *bam* all these 'strange' events start happening. It's not like they were all sleeping sound and had a 'dream', they 'literally' walked right into this, while wide awake. So, how then, do we know that this was a 'vision' and not an actual 'literal' event? Well, of course, because Jesus tells us:
9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the VISION till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."
COMMENT: What if Jesus didn't tell the disciples that this was a vision? Would they have known? It seemed to happen just as natural as if Moses and Elijah were up there in the mountain the whole time waiting for them to come up to meet them. Personally, I'm convinced that if Jesus hadn't told them that this was a 'vision' that they wouldn't have thought it was--at least not at that time--perhaps later when they received the Spirit they would have come to understand this... But Jesus clears this up for them right away by telling them it was a vision.
Next Question: Do the Scriptures need to tell us when something that happens is 'literal' or if it's a 'vision' for us to know? Can we not discern by the things we know and learn from other parts of the Scripture?
In John 1:18 we are told that "No one has ever seen God". Some would say 'well this is referring to The Father'. But it doesn't say "No one has ever seen God the Father" it just says no one has ever seen "God". Ray explains in his teachings that Jesus is Jehovah--the God of the Old Testament. So, when Moses saw God in Exodus 4, he saw Jehovah [Jesus]. But at this time Jesus was not in human form, but in the form of the Almighty Creator--God. But "no one has ever seen God"? To me, this would mean that Moses didn't 'literally' see God, but rather he experienced a vision--which is completely possible as evidenced by Matt 17 there's no reason why Moses couldn't have experienced a vision right there while he was wide awake.
Daywalker 8)
PS: ...But again, this is my thinking, I may be wrong and I accept that. I hope nobody takes this as me teaching, I was just answering Mark's request.
Marky Mark:
Hi Chris,I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.
So then,if the signs that were given to Moses were a vision and not literal,then would Moses showing the Egyptians these signs [miracles] be not not literal, but rather visions,and not true miracles? I may be wrong here but it seems to me that the Lord wanted the Egyptians to see His power[Works] through Moses.
Exo 4:8 Then the LORD said, "If they won't believe you or pay attention to the first miraculous sign, they may believe the second.
Exo 4:9 But if they won't believe these two miraculous signs or listen to you, take some water from the Nile River and pour it on the ground. The water you take from the Nile will turn into blood on the ground."
Peace...Mark
Deborah-Leigh:
You provide sound minded stabilty in that question to daywalker, Mark. 8) Not to detract...a vision can also be a miracle don't you think as in the insights given to John of Jesus Christ and also,..... everything can be a miracle... everything is a miracle! :)
Okay...Christopher... I don't want to upset the balance here. Mark has asked a very important question. :)
I'll step aside now....
Arc
daywalker:
--- Quote from: Marky Mark on September 30, 2010, 02:51:42 PM ---Hi Chris,I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.
So then,if the signs that were given to Moses were a vision and not literal,then would Moses showing the Egyptians these signs [miracles] be not not literal, but rather visions,and not true miracles? I may be wrong here but it seems to me that the Lord wanted the Egyptians to see His power[Works] through Moses.
Exo 4:8 Then the LORD said, "If they won't believe you or pay attention to the first miraculous sign, they may believe the second.
Exo 4:9 But if they won't believe these two miraculous signs or listen to you, take some water from the Nile River and pour it on the ground. The water you take from the Nile will turn into blood on the ground."
Peace...Mark
--- End quote ---
Hey Mark,
First off, I need to clear up something, it appears I confused two separate events in my last post... :( :o
Where I said,
"In John 1:18 we are told that "No one has ever seen God". Some would say 'well this is referring to The Father'. But it doesn't say "No one has ever seen God the Father" it just says no one has ever seen "God". Ray explains in his teachings that Jesus is Jehovah--the God of the Old Testament. So, when Moses saw God in Exodus 4, he saw Jehovah [Jesus]. But at this time Jesus was not in human form, but in the form of the Almighty Creator--God. But "no one has ever seen God"? To me, this would mean that Moses didn't 'literally' see God, but rather he experienced a vision--which is completely possible as evidenced by Matt 17 there's no reason why Moses couldn't have experienced a vision right there while he was wide awake."
I was thinking of when God 'appeared' to Moses on Sinai... I believe that when Moses saw God's "backside" [Exodus 33] that this was a vision as in when the disciples saw Christ and the prophets... [I don't know how the heck I screwed that up! haha, LOL...]
...Anyway, about the miracles, I don't see how them being visions would make them "not true miracles"? I definitely believe that when Christ was shown in His true glorious form, that that was a miracle, even though it was a vision. That Peter could 'know' who Moses and Elijah were, though they had died hundreds of years before he was born--that's a miracle, even though it was a vision.
miracle - an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God
There's no apparent reason to me that God can't cause a multitude of people to see a vision; and besides, what else would you call a Divine vision other than a miracle? Jesus being born from a virgin mother was a miracle [which obviously was not a vision]. Yet is it not also true that the vision of the Angel who came to Mary and Joseph was a miracle--an event that cannot be explained by laws of nature?
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