Uzziah's Leprosy

[Marky Mark]

Hey Mark,

First off, I need to clear up something, it appears I confused two separate events in my last post...  

Where I said,

"In John 1:18 we are told that "No one has ever seen God". Some would say 'well this is referring to The Father'. But it doesn't say "No one has ever seen God the Father" it just says no one has ever seen "God". Ray explains in his teachings that Jesus is Jehovah--the God of the Old Testament. So, when Moses saw God in Exodus 4, he saw Jehovah [Jesus]. But at this time Jesus was not in human form, but in the form of the Almighty Creator--God. But "no one has ever seen God"? To me, this would mean that Moses didn't 'literally' see God, but rather he experienced a vision--which is completely possible as evidenced by Matt 17 there's no reason why Moses couldn't have experienced a vision right there while he was wide awake."

I was thinking of when God 'appeared' to Moses on Sinai... I believe that when Moses saw God's "backside" [Exodus 33] that this was a vision as in when the disciples saw Christ and the prophets... [I don't know how the heck I screwed that up! haha, LOL...]


...Anyway, about the miracles, I don't see how them being visions would make them "not true miracles"? I definitely believe that when Christ was shown in His true glorious form, that that was a miracle, even though it was a vision. That Peter could 'know' who Moses and Elijah were, though they had died hundreds of years before he was born--that's a miracle, even though it was a vision.

miracle - an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God

There's no apparent reason to me that God can't cause a multitude of people to see a vision; and besides, what else would you call a Divine vision other than a miracle? Jesus being born from a virgin mother was a miracle [which obviously was not a vision]. Yet is it not also true that the vision of the Angel who came to Mary and Joseph was a miracle--an event that cannot be explained by laws of nature?

Yes Christopher, divine communication in the form of a vision is just as much of a miracle as a literal one,that I can agree on.But I guess the problem that I'm having with literal miracles vs. visionary miracles is that although both are of God and both are supernatural in origin does one take away from the other in a more meaningful or convincing way[of course in Gods purpose,not ours]?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel when one is given a vision from God, for me at least, this would communicate more of an understanding in ones mind for the benefit of the one seeing the vision where as a literal miracle would be more of a concrete happening to the people involved,so much so, that it changes the course of human existence on a larger scale,which is why Moses doing the miracles of God would be more convincing than a mass vision which could be not be as convincing in nature[to non believers]. A good example would be the dead being brought back to life in the Scriptures.If the dead being brought back to life would have been a vision instead of being literal,the effect that would have on others lives would be more for the benefit of a few instead of the many,the many meaning non believers of which the world is made up of.

I think God uses His Powers for the condition that exists at the time,and in the case of visions,I believe as Antaiwan stated
                                                           

The problem is determining a vision from a literal event? How do you know which is which when not stated?
Antaiwan

Again,how do we know if a miraculous vision is a vision if God does not inform us of the condition of the miracle[literal or not].The revealing of course would be by the way of His Word in Scripture,because God is not the author of confusion,and when one confuses a vision with a literal happening without His Word as the reference,well ,things can go down hill mighty fast.    

Anyway, thanks for the post,it was most enlightening...


Peace...Mark

[daywalker]

Hey Mark,

You make great points. Honestly, this is something I just recently started thinking about, and looking back I probably should've kept it to myself until I had done more research on the subject. Unfortunately, you can't unring a bell 

I hope people don't get the impression that I think every miraculous thing that happens is in the form of a vision, because I don't. In response to your last post, I don't see how a vision would have any less impact on a person [or mass of people] than a physical event would--regardless of whether they were believers or unbelievers. Experiencing some strange vision is not something that you just forget about... But I will state for the record, in regards to the dead people being resurrected on the day that Christ died, I do not believe this was a 'mass vision'. I do believe that these really were resurrected saints and prophets walking among people as the Scriptures tell us.

...But, again, I should've been more careful not to bring this up, since it's something I just started considering. My mistake.

Daywalker 

Hey Mark,

First off, I need to clear up something, it appears I confused two separate events in my last post...  

Where I said,

"In John 1:18 we are told that "No one has ever seen God". Some would say 'well this is referring to The Father'. But it doesn't say "No one has ever seen God the Father" it just says no one has ever seen "God". Ray explains in his teachings that Jesus is Jehovah--the God of the Old Testament. So, when Moses saw God in Exodus 4, he saw Jehovah [Jesus]. But at this time Jesus was not in human form, but in the form of the Almighty Creator--God. But "no one has ever seen God"? To me, this would mean that Moses didn't 'literally' see God, but rather he experienced a vision--which is completely possible as evidenced by Matt 17 there's no reason why Moses couldn't have experienced a vision right there while he was wide awake."

I was thinking of when God 'appeared' to Moses on Sinai... I believe that when Moses saw God's "backside" [Exodus 33] that this was a vision as in when the disciples saw Christ and the prophets... [I don't know how the heck I screwed that up! haha, LOL...]


...Anyway, about the miracles, I don't see how them being visions would make them "not true miracles"? I definitely believe that when Christ was shown in His true glorious form, that that was a miracle, even though it was a vision. That Peter could 'know' who Moses and Elijah were, though they had died hundreds of years before he was born--that's a miracle, even though it was a vision.

miracle - an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God

There's no apparent reason to me that God can't cause a multitude of people to see a vision; and besides, what else would you call a Divine vision other than a miracle? Jesus being born from a virgin mother was a miracle [which obviously was not a vision]. Yet is it not also true that the vision of the Angel who came to Mary and Joseph was a miracle--an event that cannot be explained by laws of nature?

Yes Christopher, divine communication in the form of a vision is just as much of a miracle as a literal one,that I can agree on.But I guess the problem that I'm having with literal miracles vs. visionary miracles is that although both are of God and both are supernatural in origin does one take away from the other in a more meaningful or convincing way[of course in Gods purpose,not ours]?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel when one is given a vision from God, for me at least, this would communicate more of an understanding in ones mind for the benefit of the one seeing the vision where as a literal miracle would be more of a concrete happening to the people involved,so much so, that it changes the course of human existence on a larger scale,which is why Moses doing the miracles of God would be more convincing than a mass vision which could be not be as convincing in nature[to non believers]. A good example would be the dead being brought back to life in the Scriptures.If the dead being brought back to life would have been a vision instead of being literal,the effect that would have on others lives would be more for the benefit of a few instead of the many,the many meaning non believers of which the world is made up of.

I think God uses His Powers for the condition that exists at the time,and in the case of visions,I believe as Antaiwan stated
                                                           

The problem is determining a vision from a literal event? How do you know which is which when not stated?
Antaiwan

Again,how do we know if a miraculous vision is a vision if God does not inform us of the condition of the miracle[literal or not].The revealing of course would be by the way of His Word in Scripture,because God is not the author of confusion,and when one confuses a vision with a literal happening without His Word as the reference,well ,things can go down hill mighty fast.    

Anyway, thanks for the post,it was most enlightening...


Peace...Mark

[Marky Mark]

...But, again, I should've been more careful not to bring this up, since it's something I just started considering. My mistake.

Daywalker

Christopher my brother,the only mistake would have been this post not appearing in the first place ,of course, literally, not figuratively.


Peace...Mark

[daywalker]

...But, again, I should've been more careful not to bring this up, since it's something I just started considering. My mistake.

Daywalker

Christopher my brother,the only mistake would have been this post not appearing in the first place ,of course, literally, not figuratively.


Peace...Mark

LOL, good one!