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is GOD humble?
grapehound:
Thanks John but did you miss my point?
Surely, the Son is begotten of the Father?
Not created?
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels ( created beings ) said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And, if all things were created through Him, did He create Himself?
servias:
I stole this from one of Kat's posts....
This is from the transcript of the Nashville Conference 2007 WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ----
"These things says the Amen [Jesus] the faithful and True Witness [Jesus] the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14).
There are three theories about how Christ came about.
1) He came about for the first time as a human being, out of a physical mother. That was the first time Christ ever existed.
2) He was created sometime before that and them came into the mother.
3) Then you have, He is eternal, He always existed.
Very few believe He just came into existence as a physical human being, for the first time ever. Though I had one man argue with me for weeks. He said, ‘no, in the beginning was the Word and it was the Father, that the Word was God and not Christ‘. Not too many people believe that, but some do.
Most people follow the Christian tradition and they believe no. 3, that Christ was eternal, He’s part of the trinity and He’s always existed.
But of course the truth is no. 2, Jesus Christ was created.
-"the Origin of God’s creation" (James Moffatt).
-"God’s creative Original" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
-"The Chief of the creation of God" (Young’s Translation).
-"the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of God’s creation" (The Amplified New Testament).
grapehound:
Thanks Dan,
Then can someone please explain to me the meaning of Hebrews 1:5?
--- Quote ----"the Origin of God's creation" (James Moffatt).
-"God's creative Original" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
-"The Chief of the creation of God" (Young’s Translation).
-"the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of God’s creation" (The Amplified New Testament).
--- End quote ---
Non of the above testify to the Son " Coming out of God"???
The Origin of Creation?
God's creative Original?
The Chief of the creation of God?
the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of God’s creation?
These all point to The Son being "in charge of creation" surely?
And that ALL things were created through Him?
The only begotten of the Father?
Where does it say, in any of the above, that The Son is a created being?
"The Origin?"
" The creative Original?
" The Chief of the creation"?
" The Beginning and Author? "
I really want to know!
Can anyone point me to Ray's definitive teaching on this, Please?
servias:
Here is a cut/paste from the trinity paper. I think the key here is John 16:27-28. Hope this helps...
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:
Dave in Tenn:
Everything the scripture says about the Son is true. John chapter 1, Phillipians 2:6-11, every scripture mentioned in this thread, and more. All at the same time.
Kat said in a recent thread words to the effect: These truths depend on one another. It takes understanding one thing to understand something else. With that in mind, some don't think too much about the creation and the lessons Ray taught at the Nashville '08 conference. But for me, if we think of creation as something that happened easily 6000 years ago over the course of 6 literal 24-hour days, it causes us to tend to regard the act/process of 'creation' itself as something of little honor.
If you, like I did, have trouble with this, it may be because you, like I did, have too low, carnal, and physical a view of creation. The Son is the express image of the Invisible God. The things which are seen are made, not out of nothing, but out of that which cannot be seen. That's not the end of it either.
Think about these things. We don't have a 'creed' that fits on a bumper-sticker. This isn't for theologians. You're no more wrong than any pot in the Potter's hands. Hang in there.
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