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Author Topic: is GOD humble?  (Read 3828 times)

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gallenwalsh

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is GOD humble?
« on: September 28, 2010, 09:58:10 PM »

It’s an amazing thing, God is perfect, He knows He is perfect, all wise, all knowing, all love - perfect.  But Jesus Christ as God, is humble.  It just doesn't seem to go together, but actually it fits very nicely.  Now it doesn't say that the Father is humble, not that He is vain.  But it does not say He is humble...........................This is a quote from one of Ray's papers. The question I have is this: If the spirit of GOD dwells in Jesus Christ and Christ is truly humble,and Christ is the image of the Father, is the Father then  humble also ? I do not get where Ray is coming from and how he comes up with that one.Can someone expound. Thanks !
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grapehound

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2010, 10:42:13 PM »

Created being?
I thought He was begotten.
Vanity and humility are carnal traits surely?
Or are we still seeing God in human terms?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 11:58:48 PM by mharrell08 »
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daywalker

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2010, 11:07:17 PM »

It’s an amazing thing, God is perfect, He knows He is perfect, all wise, all knowing, all love - perfect.  But Jesus Christ as God, is humble.  It just doesn't seem to go together, but actually it fits very nicely.  Now it doesn't say that the Father is humble, not that He is vain.  But it does not say He is humble...........................This is a quote from one of Ray's papers. The question I have is this: If the spirit of GOD dwells in Jesus Christ and Christ is truly humble,and Christ is the image of the Father, is the Father then  humble also ? I do not get where Ray is coming from and how he comes up with that one.Can someone expound. Thanks !


Jesus tells us that the words He speaks are His Father's words:

John 14:24 He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me."


Among those many words of His Father, were these words:

Mat 11:29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.


Jesus also tells us that:

John 14:9 Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


Every word He spoke, everything He did was His Father doing the works - John 14:10. It seems axiomatic to me that the Father is humble, seeing that Jesus, Who is humble, is the "very image of God". II Corinthians 4:4


Daywalker  8)

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grapehound

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2010, 11:22:00 PM »

I accept that Christopher.
But John, a created being?
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Kat

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2010, 11:34:21 PM »


Hi Gallenwalsh,

Though Jesus "is the image of God" the Father (2Co 4:4) and He states "I and My Father are one" (John 10:30), He is not the Father. The Father and Jesus are two separate entities, and Jesus Christ readily admits that the Father is greater than He and above all including Himself.

John 14:28  You have heard Me say to you, "I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, "I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

Eph 4:6  one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Father is self-existing and all that there is comes from Him, through Jesus Christ.

1Cor 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Now Jesus Christ is humble because He knows all this about His Father. But the Father has nothing to be humble about. That's not arrogance, that's just the truth, because arrogance is one who exalts their worth or importance and of course there is nothing more impartant or above or before the Father, He is the Supreme Being of all.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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grapehound

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2010, 11:49:58 PM »

Thanks John but did you miss my point?
Surely, the Son is begotten of the Father?
Not created?

Heb 1:5  For unto which of the angels ( created beings ) said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

And, if all things were created through Him, did He create Himself?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 12:11:20 AM by grapehound »
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servias

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2010, 12:10:22 AM »

I stole this from one of Kat's posts....

This is from the transcript of the Nashville Conference 2007 WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ----

"These things says the Amen [Jesus] the faithful and True Witness [Jesus] the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14).
There are three theories about how Christ came about.
1)  He came about for the first time as a human being, out of a physical mother.  That was the first time Christ ever existed.
2)  He was created sometime before that and them came into the mother.
3)  Then you have, He is eternal, He always existed.

Very few believe He just came into existence as a physical human being, for the first time ever.  Though I had one man argue with me for weeks.  He said, ‘no, in the beginning was the Word and it was the Father, that the Word was God and not Christ‘.  Not too many people believe that, but some do. 
Most people follow the Christian tradition and they believe no. 3, that Christ was eternal, He’s part of the trinity and He’s always existed.
But of course the truth is no. 2, Jesus Christ was created.

-"the Origin of God’s creation" (James Moffatt).
-"God’s creative Original" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
-"The Chief of the creation of God" (Young’s Translation).
-"the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of God’s creation" (The Amplified New Testament).
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grapehound

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2010, 12:14:11 AM »

Thanks Dan,
Then can someone please explain to me the meaning of Hebrews 1:5?

Quote
-"the Origin of God's creation" (James Moffatt).
-"God's creative Original" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
-"The Chief of the creation of God" (Young’s Translation).
-"the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of God’s creation" (The Amplified New Testament).

Non of the above testify to the Son " Coming out of God"???

The Origin of Creation?
God's creative Original?
The Chief of the creation of God?
the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of God’s creation?

These all point to The Son being "in charge of creation" surely?

And that ALL things were created through Him?
The only begotten of the Father?

Where does it say, in any of the above, that The  Son is a created being?

"The Origin?"
" The creative Original?
" The Chief of the creation"?
" The Beginning and Author? "

I really want to know!
Can anyone point me to Ray's definitive teaching on this, Please?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 12:54:02 AM by grapehound »
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servias

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2010, 01:12:50 AM »

Here is a cut/paste from the trinity paper. I think the key here is John 16:27-28.  Hope this helps...

Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2010, 03:40:47 AM »

Everything the scripture says about the Son is true.  John chapter 1, Phillipians 2:6-11, every scripture mentioned in this thread, and more.  All at the same time.

Kat said in a recent thread words to the effect:  These truths depend on one another.  It takes understanding one thing to understand something else.  With that in mind, some don't think too much about the creation and the lessons Ray taught at the Nashville '08 conference.  But for me, if we think of creation as something that happened easily 6000 years ago over the course of 6 literal 24-hour days, it causes us to tend to regard the act/process of 'creation' itself as something of little honor.

If you, like I did, have trouble with this, it may be because you, like I did, have too low, carnal, and physical a view of creation.  The Son is the express image of the Invisible God.  The things which are seen are made, not out of nothing, but out of that which cannot be seen.  That's not the end of it either. 

Think about these things.  We don't have a 'creed' that fits on a bumper-sticker.  This isn't for theologians.  You're no more wrong than any pot in the Potter's hands.  Hang in there.     
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

markn902

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2010, 04:08:43 AM »

Hi I am far from an expert on these things but your question (grapehound) got me to thinking about the difference between "begotten" and "created" . Actually I never thought there was a difference so I looked into it (with what could be called rudimentary skills) and this is what I found. The word begotten in relation to Christ is monogenēs  strongs G3439 here is a link with an audio pronunciation http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3439&t=KJV

it seems to me that as it is used in Luke 7:12, Luke 8:42, & Luke 9:38 verses that are not about Christ
it implies an only child. John 1:14 & 1:18 that same word is used in relation to Christ. Now I would take that to mean Our Lord and Savior is God's only child in the sense that he was created miraculously through a virgin birth. No one else can make that claim since or before.

now the words I found for "created" ktisis Strong's G2937 seem to speak to the act of creating (which wouldn't conflict with begotten)  and the old testament word bara' Strong's H1254 which can mean to create, shape, form also doesn't seem to conflict with begotten. I believe IMHO that God "created" his only "begotten" son. Now if he was "created" before his actual physical birth(which I believe he was wholeheartedly) that doesn't disqualify him from being created physically (especially taking into account Strong's G2937 "the act of creating")  as his only begotten son. if that makes any sense  :)

Again I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong your post actually intrigued me and made me wonder if I was missing something in the meaning of these words. I know Strong's isn't the be all end all to proper word translation but I think it does a good job here.

Mark
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 04:11:34 AM by markn902 »
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Joel

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2010, 07:33:15 AM »

To be humble doesn't mean your are a pushover,or an easy mark. I don't think Jesus was that in any way. He was a suffering servant, but mighty in word and deed.
Who Jesus was and what he was and is, becomes simple to me in the light of the scriptures that proclaim him to be THE WORD OF GOD.
Where do our words come from?
Where did Jesus get his words from? :)

Joel
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grapehound

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2010, 07:39:07 AM »

Thank you all my wonderful Brothers,

I just finished Nashville 2007 audio 4 "The Real Jesus", AND : I GET IT! Phew!  I thought I was gonna go nuts there for a while!
Thank y'all for your patience with me, and for licking me into shape.  :-[ ;D

Dave in Tenn, your a great sheepdog bro. Luv ya.

Markn 902 I think you nailed that pretty well, thanks.

Well, onward and upward !

Muchest Luv

Grape x
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Samson

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2010, 10:13:04 AM »

Created being?
I thought He was begotten.
Vanity and humility are carnal traits surely?
Or are we still seeing God in human terms?


Hi Grapehound,

                     I was away for two days visiting my Daughter and just viewed this Thread for the first time. John from Kentucky and Kat covered the "Begotten" part quite nicely. We have had Threads like this before where different ones didn't realize that Jesus had a beginning, They believed that He's "Eternal," like the Trinitarian type view.

                     I will share some points with you from a different angle. Besides the definition of the Greek Word Genao: "Begin, beget, conceive, beginning, began, etc, another point is this, the word "Eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek word Aionian and the Hebrew word Ohlam, so what this means for the sake of this discussion is that whenever a Scripture is talking about Jesus being God in the Old Testament or the New Testament and the word Eternal is mentioned, most people reading these passages believe Jesus or Jehovah(Jesus name in the Old Testament) had no beginning, because the word Eternal means Endless without a beginning, whereas the word "Everlasting" means Endless, but with a beginning. An example would be 1Timothy,1:17(King "Eternal," should be Eonian and "Forever and Ever" should be Ages of the Ages, Greek-Aions). Psalm. 90:2(From Everlasting to Everlasting, you are God, the Hebrew Ohlam should be Ages of the Ages). Revelation. 5:13,14 uses Forever & Ever in reference to The Lamb(Jesus Christ), the Greek Word is Aions mistranslated Forever, should be "Eons of the Eons," or "Ages of the Ages."

                    Hope this helps some more, Samson.
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Akira329

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2010, 10:31:42 AM »

It’s an amazing thing, God is perfect, He knows He is perfect, all wise, all knowing, all love - perfect.  But Jesus Christ as God, is humble.  It just doesn't seem to go together, but actually it fits very nicely.  Now it doesn't say that the Father is humble, not that He is vain.  But it does not say He is humble...........................This is a quote from one of Ray's papers. The question I have is this: If the spirit of GOD dwells in Jesus Christ and Christ is truly humble,and Christ is the image of the Father, is the Father then  humble also ? I do not get where Ray is coming from and how he comes up with that one.Can someone expound. Thanks !

Hey Gallenwalsh,
Ray said that in his 2006 Mobile Conference
It seems it was a question Ray had then but I'm sure he has the anwser now.
You should probably email him directly.

However the scriptures are clear:
Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law
.

That is a fruit of the fathers spirit, Meekness(humility)
A study of the Nashville 08 conference should help!

Hope this gives you direction.
Antaiwan
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Akira329

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2010, 10:38:33 AM »

Also Gallenwalsh didn't ask if Jesus was begotten or created.
That should be another thread.
We really have to stop hijacking other peoples threads with our own questions.
If you have a question that stems from a thread in process, start a new thread.
It helps the one who started it in the first place.

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Kat

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2010, 12:10:28 PM »



Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)

Jesus "came forth from the Father" (John 16:28). He was created as all things that were brought into existence from the Father were.

1Cr 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Eph 3:9  and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created ALL things through Jesus Christ;

Christ was the first and very special created "Original" of the Father, He "came forth from the Father" (John 16:28).  So you would have to think this was a special creation, also referred to many times in Scripture as "begotten," it was like none other and He has always been the Father's begotten Son. (John 1:18; John 3:16, 18; Acts 13:33; 1 John 4:9; 1 John 5:1)

Psa 2:7  "I will declare the decree:
       The LORD has said to Me,
       "You are My Son,
       Today I have begotten You.

Here are a few places Ray speaks of this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4472.0 --------------

“Being in the form of God…”  is being inherently in the form of God.  Inherently, that’s an interesting word, it means possessed at birth or the inborn, right.  I thought now that is interesting, that before He became man, He was by birth - inborn.  

Strong’s uses the word, He existed as a 'innate.'  Existent as an innate birth, a right by birth.  That is what it means, a right by or through birth.  Jesus Christ was BORN.  To which of the angels did He ever say, you are My son I have begotten you... as a little boy in a manger?  He was His Son, from the beginning.  The whole idea of Jesus Christ, was to be a Son, ‘from the beginning.’  Now it says.  

Phi 2:6  …thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7  but made Himself of no reputation, and took on Himself the form of a servant(slave), and was made in the likeness of man.
v
v
Jesus does acknowledge that Mary was His mother and all, but He said here;  "believe that I came out from God. "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world" (John 16:27-28).
If He just existed the first time coming out from Mary, then He didn’t come out from God, He came out from Mary, you see.  So if He came out from God, He had to exist before Mary, right.  So He was before Mary.
"I came out from THEE" (John 17:08).
"I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He SENT ME" (John 8:42).
"because God SENT His only begotten Son into the world the Father SENT the Son to be the Saviour of the world" (I John 3:8 & 14).
He didn’t send a spiritual sperm into Mary.  He sent His Son!
1 John 4:14 “… the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.”


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3720.0 --------------

Remember the scripture -- 1Cor 8:6  "but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him;  and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him."

Is Jesus Christ something?  Yes.  What is He?  He’s of God,  all is of Him, of the One God.  All is of Him, Jesus Christ is of Him.
v
v
We read in 1 Cor 15:20  “But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.”

That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.”  Who is the Firstfurit?  JESUS CHRIST.

Where did Jesus come from:  John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
 
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14.  Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all.  So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God.  But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
v
v
“In the beginning (firstfruit) God Created the heaven and the earth.”(Gen 1:1)

He is the Firstfruit of those who slept, He’s the first of everything, that His name may be first preeminent above any and every and all, because He is the Creator.  He emptied Himself, became the Savior of the world.  He will forever be the preeminent One, in the whole universe.

JESUS:  The Personification of God’s Will due to Humility.
Because humility goes hand in hand with qualifying for the kingdom of God, doing the will of God, and being in the state of mind that understands spiritual things.  If your not humble then it won’t work.  A major point is Christ always did the Father’s will, with humility.  
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 07:55:33 PM by Kat »
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grapehound

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Re: is GOD humble?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2010, 03:02:48 PM »

Thank you all

Kat, that was superb, thank you so much.

Samson,  icing on the cake for me. Thank you.

Antaiwan, your point is well taken and thank you


Muchest Luv x
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