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[arion]

I was listening this morning to one of the Nashville 2005 tapes and the following is from the transcript that Kat has done...

.....And let me tell you something, the scribes and the Pharisees never taught a doctrine this damnable.  And you listen to Jesus Christ.  He called them everything but…(I won’t say it).  And they never taught a doctrine half, a tenth, not a billionth as evil as what the church is teaching today.  I’m telling you, this teaching of hell is the ultimate blasphemy.  There is no greater sin that any human being can think or do than to believe that the God that they worship will actually torture their mothers and fathers and some of their sisters and brothers and relatives in real fire for all eternity.  It’s the ultimate sin.  And they think they are doing God a favor by teaching this. No they’re not going to be tortured for all eternity, because we are teaching against that, but wait until you find out what their punishment will be.  It will blow you away.

John Hagee teaches that if a dove were to take a fine silk scarf, put it in its beak and fly over the Rocky Mountains, and as it flies over the mountains it would just caress the top of the granite peak, and then fly back the other way and just caress the peaks with this hanky, that by the time (he would keep switching hankies) and he would wear the whole Rocky chain of mountains from Mexico to Canada into a valley, your punishment in hell had not even yet started compared to eternity. So this man has thought about it.  You won’t believe what his punishment is going to be.  I could hardly believe it, but you’re going to learn that God is just.  I mean He is so dead on, there’s nothing arbitrary about what and how God does things.  You can’t say, well aren’t you punishing this person a little too much and this one not as much, I mean, I would think for what he did he should…(etc.)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

I'm wondering if Ray has every expanded on this at all anywhere else.  He appears to have some insight into God's 'making the punishment/chastisement' fit the crime.  There is a scripture that addresses it but still leaves it pretty nebulous.

Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I would just add as a reminder that none of us are allowed to teach here and my idea of what this means might be different than yours and discussions on things that the scriptures don't really deal with seldom bear good fruit so I guess I'm just asking if anyone is aware of Ray having dealt with or expanded on this a little bit more or for any who were at that conference if you can think back did Ray expand on this and it didn't make the tape?  I could email Ray but with as many he gets and with everything he's dealing with I don't think I would get an answer back from him.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Arion

You ask if anyone is aware of Ray having dealt with or expanded on this a little bit more.

FOUR JUDGMENTS OF JESUS
"For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother" (Mark 3:35).
Being angry with a true brother or sister who is doing the will of God, is little different than being angry with God Himself. And if we do it, we will be in danger of the Judgment. Or as some render it, "the Judge or Judges." Jesus is our singular Judge, and we will be the multiple judges that "judge the world & angels" (I Cor. 6:2-3), by these very same principles.
The first four judgments of Jesus in His Sermon revolve around "brothers" in Christ who "do the will of God." And even calling a brother "you fool," will bring judgment of Jesus on your life. But what about the last one-"prison?" Does Jesus put us in prison? Yes, He certainly does. I can personally vouch for this one, and maybe you can too. Sometimes we are put into a position where we just can't get out. There IS NO WAY OUT. We will physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually struggle for a way out, but there is no way out. You are in spiritual prison! And Jesus ONLY has the keys. Ref :THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT IS FOR CHRIST'S DISCIPLES
THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT IS FOR YOU, NOW!

To Judge means to set right…L Ray Smith  Ref : GEHENNA FIRE JUDGMENT


...there is only ONE time that the word "Punishment" is used with reference to evil doers in the entire Greek Scriptures. I hope this doesn't disappoint you. Ref:  THE SEVEN WONDERS OF HELL  A Sermon by John Hagee   A Critiqued by L. Ray Smith

Blessings
Arc

[Kat]

Hi Arion,

Note this comment from your excerpt.

There is no greater sin that any human being can think or do than to believe that the God that they worship will actually torture their mothers and fathers and some of their sisters and brothers and relatives in real fire for all eternity.  It’s the ultimate sin.

Ray expresses the it is the teaching of an eternal hell that is the ultimate sin. So that teaching of a eternal place of torment would be the bases for their judgment that Ray is talking about, to not be forgiven in this age OR THE NEXT. I have to believe that it is not being forgiven 'in the next age' that is a hard to imagine punishment. You can see this in a email Ray answered, I only brought part of it here, because it was rather lengthy (I have placed in bold where I think Ray brings this out).


http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm --------------------------------------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Nick:

You quote the NASB which says: "...whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit NEVER has forgiveness..."

You then quote The Greek Interlinear Bible which says:   "...who but might insult in the spirit the holy NOT he has sending off..."

Do you understand the difference between "not" and "never?"  These two translations contradict each other. "not" and "never" ARE NOT THE SAME WORDS WITH THE SAME MEANING. You then contradict YOURSELF in your next statement by saying:  "Verse 29 clarifies the statement and flatly says that there is a sin that 'NEVER has forgiven [NOT he has sending off)....'"  You read it with you own eyes in a Greek Interlinear "not"---the word is "NOT," and say that this word means "NEVER."  Let's read your statement again:

"Verse 29 clarifies the statement and flatly says that there is a sin that "NEVER has forgiveness NOT he has send off)..."  It is my purpose to belabor this point. You say that the word "not" means "NEVER." This is not true, Nick.

"not, adv. 1 -- used as a function word to make negative a group of words or a word." (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary p. 848).

"never, adv. 1 -- not ever: at no time" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary p. 834).

Can you now see the difference between these two words?  Good. Maybe an example will clarify it even more for you:

Suppose I am a farmer and I say:  "Will NOT plant corn this season nor the following season."  And someone then passed on this statement and said:  "Ray said that he will NEVER plant corn."  Is that an accurate statement of what I said?  NO IT ISN'T. Neither is your assertion that "not he has sending off into the age" means "never has forgiveness EVER."

The word "never" does not appear in ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPT.   I checked three more Greek Interlinear and they all have the word "not."   "Never"is a totally different word with a totally different meaning.

Next you say: The use of the word "but" is showing that there is a contrast, or an exception to the previous statement.  All sins are forgivable, but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is NOT."  And there you put a PERIOD, as thou Jesus Christ put a period at this point of His statement.  You are very deceitful when you do things like this, Nick. Jesus said that "...blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven NEITHER IN THIS WORLD, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME."   When will blasphemy "not be forgiver?"  Answer:  "IN THIS AGE AND THE AGE TO COME."  Jesus did not say: "in this age and in the age to come, AND FOR ALL ETERNITY TOO."  Is that what He said?  Then why do YOU and Christendom say that that is what He said, when He said no such thing? First your "TAKE AWAY" from the word of God:  you LEAVE OUT the phrase "in this world [age], neither in the world [age] to come."

Next you "ADD TOO" the word of God: you turn TWO AGES INTO ETERNITIES!!

Where is the honest Biblical scholarship in this ungodly arguments of yours?  The Scriptures (not I) completely destroy your arguments.

You then have the shameless audacity to REPEAT your unscriptural and dishonest scholarship.

You state:  "As I said, Jesus s contrasting the second statement (unforgivable sin) with the first statement (forgivable sin).  Or really?   Jesus said "UNforgivable," did He?  And in whose Bible, pray tell, are you finding THAT word?  It never came out of any Greek manuscript!  Jesus is NOT comparing "forgiveable" with "UNforgivable."  He is comparing SINS--two categories of sins. One category that is forgiven and one that is NOT FORGIVEN FOR THE NEXT TO AGES.  For two specific periods of TIME, this sin is not forgiven.  You cannot honest change Christ's words from "not for the next two ages" to "never for all eternity."  You are dishonest, Nick.

Then yet a THIRD time you suggest that the word "never" is proper by quoting Mark 3:29. What was your purpose in quoting The Greek Interlinear if not to show what the EXACT words were?  "Never" is not a substitution for the word "not."  One if "NOT for two ages."  The other is "NEVER, EVER."  And you gloss over this as if it is not even important to make this critical difference. Suppose you were sentenced for a crime, and the Judge said that, "you shall not come out of jail this week or the week after."   But the warden interpreted the Judge's statement to mean, "you shall NEVER EVER come out of jail."  Do you think THEN, Nick, that you might be ready to argue the use of these two words properly?  Think about it.

This is the first time, of tens of thousands of emails, that I have ever had someone suggest that if two Scriptures speak of the VERY SAME EVENT, that the verse that leaves out some of the information that the other verse puts in, that we should go with the one that LEAVES INFORMATION OUT.  Talk about grasping at straws. You are really GRASPING!
v
v
Now it does not apparent harm to call God "the ETERNAL God." That is a TRUE statement, but IT IS ;NOT A TRUE TRANSLATION!  And when we make this SAME mistake of translating with reference to punishment for the ages, it becomes NEVER-ENDING, ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, which is a damnable heresy.

God be with you,

Ray

[daywalker]

...there is only ONE time that the word "Punishment" is used with reference to evil doers in the entire Greek Scriptures. I hope this doesn't disappoint you. Ref:  THE SEVEN WONDERS OF HELL  A Sermon by John Hagee   A Critiqued by L. Ray Smith[/color]

Blessings
Arc

I thought it would be a good idea to provide that one scripture in which we find the Greek word "timoria" meaning "punishment without pity".

Hebrews 10:28 Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment [timoria], are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?
30 For we are acquainted with Him Who is saying, Mine is vengeance! I will repay! the Lord is saying, and again, "The Lord will be judging His people"
31 Fearful is it to be falling into the hands of the living God!

Notice that this particular "punishment" is directed toward believers, not the unbelieving world.

Daywalker 

[Samson]

Hi Arion,

             I found this Email of Ray's in the Categorization of Emails Section while perusing around to add helpful information in answer to Your question. Christopher gave additional insight by showing the one place the Greek word Timoria(Punishment) is used in connection to Believers. That's the only time Timoria is used in reference to punishment towards believers By God. There are a few other places in Acts where Timoria is used in connection to the Apostles receiving punishment from the Religious Leaders. Read below, the Email to Ray and His response.

  In what way you think that Hitler will be SEVERELY CHASTISED ,a short time in fire or another form of
    punishment?Because if you think he will be,you must know  some kind of punishment.I been reading your writings for a while and I notice that you don't said what doctrine you really follow the apocatastasis doctrine?
     
    People like Hitler will be for their evil ways.
     
    Victor
     
    Dear Victor:
    Hitler, Saddam and his sons, and people like John Hagee and Dr. Kennedy who gloat over billions being tortured for all eternity, and many more just like them, will be Judged in the VERY SAME WAY THAT THEY JUDGED OTHERS (Matt. 7:1-2).  Their OWN SINS, will "TORMENT them" beyond comprehension, "in the PRESENCE of the Lamb" (Rev. 14:10), when God purges their evil consciences with His spiritual "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
    God be with you,
    Ray

Also, here's an excerpt from the Greek Words defined and Usage Thread that might assist you regarding Timoria in contrast with Kolasin.

3) Kolasin: Chastisement, Root Word is Kolos and literally means "to prune" The Correction is with a view to helping the offender. Usually incorrectly rendered Punishment.Matt. 25:46 (Eonian Chastisement)4) Timoria: Punishment or Penalty; It means the vindictive character of punishment that only satisfies the inflictor of it. Acts. 4:21 ( Find no way of punishing them).PUNISHING VS. CHASTENINGWhile considering all of the hellfire and brimstone material disseminated by Christian teachers, preachers, writers, and educators around the world, just how many hundreds of times do you suppose the word "punishment" is used in the entire New Testament with regards to sinners? Hundreds? Would you believe less than fifty? Would you believe less than ten? Would you believe ONCE? That’s right, the answer is one time.

"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).

I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.

This is a most powerful Scripture to be sure, but it does not speak of "eternal" punishment, and it is the ONLY SCRIPTURE IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that uses the word "punishment" with reference to punishing sinners!

There are three other places in the KJV that the word "punish" or "punished" is used correctly. They are Acts 4:21; 22:5; and 26:11 where it Saul (later Paul) is punishing not sinners, but members of the church, the followers of Christ.

                                 Kind Regards, Samson.

[mharrell08]

I was listening this morning to one of the Nashville 2005 tapes and the following is from the transcript that Kat has done...

.....And let me tell you something, the scribes and the Pharisees never taught a doctrine this damnable.  And you listen to Jesus Christ.  He called them everything but…(I won’t say it).  And they never taught a doctrine half, a tenth, not a billionth as evil as what the church is teaching today.  I’m telling you, this teaching of hell is the ultimate blasphemy.  There is no greater sin that any human being can think or do than to believe that the God that they worship will actually torture their mothers and fathers and some of their sisters and brothers and relatives in real fire for all eternity.  It’s the ultimate sin.  And they think they are doing God a favor by teaching this. No they’re not going to be tortured for all eternity, because we are teaching against that, but wait until you find out what their punishment will be.  It will blow you away.

John Hagee teaches that if a dove were to take a fine silk scarf, put it in its beak and fly over the Rocky Mountains, and as it flies over the mountains it would just caress the top of the granite peak, and then fly back the other way and just caress the peaks with this hanky, that by the time (he would keep switching hankies) and he would wear the whole Rocky chain of mountains from Mexico to Canada into a valley, your punishment in hell had not even yet started compared to eternity. So this man has thought about it.  You won’t believe what his punishment is going to be.  I could hardly believe it, but you’re going to learn that God is just.  I mean He is so dead on, there’s nothing arbitrary about what and how God does things.  You can’t say, well aren’t you punishing this person a little too much and this one not as much, I mean, I would think for what he did he should…(etc.)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

I'm wondering if Ray has every expanded on this at all anywhere else.  He appears to have some insight into God's 'making the punishment/chastisement' fit the crime.  There is a scripture that addresses it but still leaves it pretty nebulous.

Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I would just add as a reminder that none of us are allowed to teach here and my idea of what this means might be different than yours and discussions on things that the scriptures don't really deal with seldom bear good fruit so I guess I'm just asking if anyone is aware of Ray having dealt with or expanded on this a little bit more or for any who were at that conference if you can think back did Ray expand on this and it didn't make the tape?  I could email Ray but with as many he gets and with everything he's dealing with I don't think I would get an answer back from him.

Christendom teaches the world that all unbelievers are destined for an eternity in real fire called Hell/Lake of Fire. As the many scriptures testify, God will repay the wicked by their own works. Henceforth, the Christendom ministers and followers will find themselves in the very fires that they condemned on everyone who doesn't believe & think as they do.

As Ray teaches in LOF Part 16-E, this fire is a spiritual fire. It purifies God's Elect the same way it will purify the wicked/unbelieving.

Gehenna fire is the furnace of fire, the unquenchable fire, the everlasting [Gk; eonian/age-abiding] fire, and the lake of fire, as we just saw proven by Scripture.

And this fire by five names is God's Judgment:

upon His disciples (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30)

upon the Pharisees (Matt. 23:33)

upon the chaff (Matt. 3:12)

upon the spiritual goats (Matt. 25:32 & 41)

upon trees which bear no good fruit (Matt. 7:19)

upon the spiritual tares (Matt. 13:40)

upon all the WICKED (Matt. 13:49-50)

All these five "fires" are the same one fire, and this fire is the "Consuming Fire" of God that JUDGES BOTH US AND THE WORLD. And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:8 ). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGEMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!


Hope this helps,

Marques


P.S. This installment of LOF was finished after that 2005 conference. Not sure if that makes any difference, but just an FYI.

[arion]

Thanks to everyone for their comments and for expanding on what was presented.  It just seems from what Ray had said here that something specific was revealed to him vis a vis his comments 'wait until you find out what their punishment will be.  It will blow you away.' and 'You won’t believe what his punishment is going to be.'  I'm kind of curious exactly what Ray had in mind here when he said this but of course then this is something that only he can answer.  Thanks again everyone!!

[eskimojerry]

I read in one of Rays articles about that...I forget where. But I believe that the verse that he expounded on was... Mat 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged,...I'll look for it in Rays articles, maybe I can find it.

[Deborah-Leigh]

It just seems from what Ray had said here that something specific was revealed to him vis a vis his comments 'wait until you find out what their punishment will be.  It will blow you away.' and 'You won’t believe what his punishment is going to be.'  I'm kind of curious exactly what Ray had in mind here when he said this ........

To have the Mind of Christ, we can see that  “their punishment” as Ray was discussing,  is NOT going to end in a pagan hell that is savored, idolized and cherished by hell spitting radicals of Harlot Babylon. To think that the worst of sinners is going to be corrected is just too much a leap in faith for hop along Babylonians making up their doctrines at every wind of change they encounter. No. Even Satan is going to be purged corrected and repented! Take that to a Babylonian and watch the fire burn…it will blow you away if you don’t understand!

Arc

[Deborah-Leigh]

    ~Psalm 107~  blows me away!

[Dave in Tenn]

    ~Psalm 107~  blows me away!

Amen. 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Re: Mobile Conference 2009

 WRATH IS: PUNISHMENT & JUDGMENT


Psa 78:49  He castH7971 upon them (these are those that turn their back on Him and don’t want to walk after the spirit) the fiercenessH2740 of his anger,H639 wrath,H5678 and indignation,H2195 and trouble,H6869 by sendingH4917 evilH7451 angelsH4397 among them.

(Notes)
Fierceness: H2740 chevron  - a burning of anger: - sore displeasure, fierce (-ness), fury, (fierce) wrath (-ful).

Anger: H639 'aph - anger, wrath.

Wrath: H5678 ‛ebrâh - an outburst of passion: - anger, rage, wrath.

Indignation: H2195  za‛am - strictly froth at the mouth, that is, (figuratively) fury (especially of God’s displeasure with sin): - angry, indignation, rage.

Trouble: H6869 tsârâh - adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.

Evil: H7451 ra‛  râ‛âh - bad or evil.  adversity, affliction, distress, evil, grief, harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favored, mischief, misery, naught, noisome, sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked, wretchedness, wrong.

So God does pour out His wrath and it’s pretty bad. Why?  Because of their great sin.

Psa 78:17  And they sinned…

And they refused to “walk” in God’s law.

Psa 78:10 They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in His law;

Wow, that’s pretty bad. But, not on His elect. “There is no condemnation” (Rom. 8:1). Believe me, the wrath and fierceness and fury and evil and vengeance that God’s going to send on this world is not a pretty picture. But not on His elect! “There is no condemnation.”

You know that scripture, but you just don’t think about it, you don’t completely believe it, that’s the problem. Well, think about it and believe it. ’Well I guess if God was for me…’  Not if, He is for you! That’s why you are sitting here. Why would you spend hundreds of dollars and travel thousands of miles to come here if you didn’t want to obey God? If you didn’t want to fellowship with people of like minds? If you didn’t want to be instructed out of the word of God? Why would you do that? Of course God is for you.

Well, then who’s against you? Nobody. There’s no power you can put up against God. That’s a mismatch.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

But God has appointed us to tribulation.

1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
v. 4  For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

God’s Elect are God’s favorites, the chosen are favorites. He favors us and that’s why “there’s no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus and walk not after the flesh but after the spirit.”  (Notes) God’s Elect are God’s favorites upon whom He is now showing great favor. He does not hate us, neither is He anger with us.

1 Cor. 10:1-11 …We are NOT to do as those upon whom God poured out His WRATH!



   THREE (3) PRINCIPLES FOR UNDERSTANDING GOD’S WORD

So when you start studying the Bible, from now on, the first thing you need to find out.

1.)  WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY?  If it’s nebulous, then check some translations.  But find out what it says.
2.)  PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO ALL THE WORDS!
3.)  BELIEVE WHAT IT SAYS!  You’ve got to believe it.Blessings
Arc