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Hm...
Lightseeker:
Craig,
Thanks for your quick response. But, as I look at Genesis I see the Heb. words chay nephesh which were translated living soul 7 other times. And this is my main problem...in those '8 total number of times' it's translated as "living creature" 7 times, but only once is it translated as "living soul" in Gen 2:7.
Also, in the following two verses ""of all flesh"" is included along with "living soul/creature chay/nepheshl" so if the soul is united flesh and spirit as per my first post's question??...I hope you can see my dilemma understanding this teaching.
GEN 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
If you/others here can't help answer this, then clarification from Ray may be indicated as per the new forum rules. I E-mailed before with no response. I assumed that his schedule is too busy to answer every question from every person capable of e-mail, and fully understand that. That's why I've always asked questions here. Questions which I felt were within the former Rules of the forum. But admittedly they were questions based upon my present perspective concerning things which were being discussed.
I honestly don't know yet, who the new rules will allow to stay anymore, myself included. I do believe that I have not been here seeking 'to win'...I feel I've been seeking 'the truth'. And I would hope that motivation would be allowed in any 'Christian' forum. Though I understand the burden you all have as moderators. It is truly a formidable task anywhere, but probably more so here.
Gary,
I was about to post and saw your 'note' had been added. Thanks for the response. But until that 'clarification' is confirmed I guess my question, posed above, is still a worthy one.
Craig:
--- Quote from: Lightseeker on July 05, 2006, 12:01:36 PM ---I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.
Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)
--- Quote ---Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.
--- End quote ---
If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?
--- End quote ---
Answer from Ray
Dear Forum:
Unfortunately sometimes when speaking we need to make reference to something as if it at a certain location, or has gone to a certain location, or has been retruned from a certain location, when in fact, IT DIDN'T GO OR COME FROM ANYWHERE.
"But God will redeem my soul FROM the power of the grave [Heb: sheol]..." (Psalm 49:15).
"You will not leave My soul IN hell [Gk: hades--unseen, imperceptible]..." (Acts 2:27).
Obviously if David's soul could comr "from" then it could also go "to" sheol.
If Christ's soul was "in" hell, then it must have gone "to" hell unless it was always there.
But sheol and sheol are NOT PLACES, but rather a realm or condition. I used the analogy of a TV to represent the human components: The console or box is the body, the electricty is the spirit, and the picture on the screen is the soul. Pull the plug and where does the picture "GO?" It doesn't technically go or more or change locations at all--it DISAPPEARS at the same place it was once present. You can heat or cool a piece of metal at the same location and never move it. It changes dramatically, but it does "go anywhere."
When a physical body and a spirit are combined we have "soul"--sentient conscieousness. When we separate the body from the spirit this consciousness is no longer there. Well, where did it "GO?" We "say," although it is not technically true, but we say that it "went" to hades (or in Hebrew sheol), but in reality it didn't go anywhere. It just "bacame" imperceptible, and this imperception of the consciousness of man is traditionally in Hebrew said to go to "sheol--the unseen" or in Greek to "hades--the unseen."
I used to have a piece of transpart yellow and blue thin plastic. Hold them side by side and you had one blue (let's let that color represent the body), and one yellow (let's let that one represent the spirit). Now then we have only TWO pieces and TWO colors. But, slide the yellow plastic half way over the blue plastic and we have yellow on one side (spirit), and blue on the other side (body) AND GREEN in the center (soul). Slide them apart and we are back to but two colors, yellow and blue--spirit and body. WHERE did the green (soul) "go?"
It didn't "go" anywhere, it merely ceased to exist. So in that sense it went to the "unseen" or "imperceptible," as that is what hades and sheol mean.
God be with you,
Ray
PS At resurrection God will united "YOUR" spirit to a new body, and the result with be the same "you" that died, but now you will be a living soul with a spiritual body that can never die.
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: Lightseeker on July 05, 2006, 12:01:36 PM ---I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.
Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)
--- Quote ---Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.
--- End quote ---
If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?
--- End quote ---
I think sheol (the unseen) is the state of the soul being unconscious, more so than a place.
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: parsonssc on July 05, 2006, 04:03:35 PM ---
--- Quote from: Lightseeker on July 05, 2006, 12:01:36 PM ---I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.
Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)
--- Quote ---Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.
--- End quote ---
If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?
--- End quote ---
Answer from Ray
Dear Forum:
Unfortunately sometimes when speaking we need to make reference to something as if it at a certain location, or has gone to a certain location, or has been retruned from a certain location, when in fact, IT DIDN'T GO OR COME FROM ANYWHERE.
"But God will redeem my soul FROM the power of the grave [Heb: sheol]..." (Psalm 49:15).
"You will not leave My soul IN hell [Gk: hades--unseen, imperceptible]..." (Acts 2:27).
Obviously if David's soul could comr "from" then it could also go "to" sheol.
If Christ's soul was "in" hell, then it must have gone "to" hell unless it was always there.
But sheol and sheol are NOT PLACES, but rather a realm or condition. I used the analogy of a TV to represent the human components: The console or box is the body, the electricty is the spirit, and the picture on the screen is the soul. Pull the plug and where does the picture "GO?" It doesn't technically go or more or change locations at all--it DISAPPEARS at the same place it was once present. You can heat or cool a piece of metal at the same location and never move it. It changes dramatically, but it does "go anywhere."
When a physical body and a spirit are combined we have "soul"--sentient conscieousness. When we separate the body from the spirit this consciousness is no longer there. Well, where did it "GO?" We "say," although it is not technically true, but we say that it "went" to hades (or in Hebrew sheol), but in reality it didn't go anywhere. It just "bacame" imperceptible, and this imperception of the consciousness of man is traditionally in Hebrew said to go to "sheol--the unseen" or in Greek to "hades--the unseen."
I used to have a piece of transpart yellow and blue thin plastic. Hold them side by side and you had one blue (let's let that color represent the body), and one yellow (let's let that one represent the spirit). Now then we have only TWO pieces and TWO colors. But, slide the yellow plastic half way over the blue plastic and we have yellow on one side (spirit), and blue on the other side (body) AND GREEN in the center (soul). Slide them apart and we are back to but two colors, yellow and blue--spirit and body. WHERE did the green (soul) "go?"
It didn't "go" anywhere, it merely ceased to exist. So in that sense it went to the "unseen" or "imperceptible," as that is what hades and sheol mean.
God be with you,
Ray
PS At resurrection God will united "YOUR" spirit to a new body, and the result with be the same "you" that died, but now you will be a living soul with a spiritual body that can never die.
--- End quote ---
That didn't really answer my question.
Can you not kill a nephesh by breaking the bond between body and spirit? If so, then how come Jesus says only God has the power to kill both soul and body in gehenna?
Last time I checked, a nephesh is a conscious being, and can be killed.
Is there a difference between killing a nephesh and separating body and spirit or are they the same? I would think if you made a "living soul" no longer "living" then you have killed the "living soul."
After all, it is said the "SOUL" that sins will die. Yet, Jesus is saying man has not the power to kill our "souls." I don't get it.
hillsbororiver:
Man only has a temporal power in this age, I believe Jesus was speaking of fearing Him who is eternal and who subjects all things versus fearing them who can only temporarily kill the body/soul.
Remember the Lake of Fire is the second death, no man has any power over whether or not he will be there after the judgement.
Do you think that Jesus was saying don't fear those who can wield death to you now, fear Him who can subject you to the second death?
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