Hm...

[nightmare sasuke]

You all are missing my point. In my mind, Jesus is contradicting the Scriptures. Nephesh die, yet Jesus says man cannot kill a nephesh.

If it refers to judgment, then how can men have the power to kill the body in judgment?

[hillsbororiver]

That is the point, don't be fearful of men who can kill you/me now, fear Him who can cast you into The Lake of Fire, no man has power over that, the second death, only God does.


Luk 9:24  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


Luk 17:33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

If we were to look at the above verses as strictly physical you could say Jesus was contradicting Himself here as well.

[chrissiela]

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is this necessarily a "physical" death spoken of here?


Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Did Adam die a physical death?

Are we not all "dead" because of sin?

Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

As Joe said.... looking at the spiritual here in order to see past the "contradiction".

Blessings,
Chrissie

[nightmare sasuke]

That is the point, don't be fearful of men who can kill you/me now, fear Him who can cast you into The Lake of Fire, no man has power over that, the second death, only God does.


Luk 9:24  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


Luk 17:33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

If we were to look at the above verses as strictly physical you could say Jesus was contradicting Himself here as well.

According to Jesus, man cannot kill me, a living soul, now. That's my problem with the verse.

[nightmare sasuke]

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is this necessarily a "physical" death spoken of here?


Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Did Adam die a physical death?

Are we not all "dead" because of sin?

Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

As Joe said.... looking at the spiritual here in order to see past the "contradiction".

Blessings,
Chrissie

CLV translates Gen 2:17 differently.

[chrissiela]

CLV translates Gen 2:17 differently.

Yes, I know. Was Adam created immortal? Or was he already dying? If he was not created immortal and was already dying, then is the penalty for sin a physical death?

It is appointed to men ONCE to die and then judgment. How does that reconcile with the fact that judgment had begun at the house of God (among those who are physically alive, right?)? So this cannot be a physical death right? Did Paul not "die" (he said he died daily) though he was physically alive? Is it not through 'death' that we attain LIFE?

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone:

but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

1Co 15:36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:[/list]


God's words are spirit and they are life. Right?

Maybe I'm just adding to the confusion. Sorry I won't say any more. 

Chrissie

[Lightseeker]

Nightmare,

I'm not going to say too much, because I see man as spirit, soul, and body, and if I'm wrong I need to change.  But since Ray has commented let me weigh in with this small bit addressing his post, since I think I see what you're saying.

Using Ray's teaching and analogy, how can one kill the TV/body and not kill the picture/soul.  Not just turn the TV off mind you, which is spirit anyway, but 'kill' the TV. Using Ray's definition of soul I think I'm being fair in saying that the soul is the brain at work. 

MAT 10:28  And fear not them which kill/to destroy  the body, but are not able to kill/to destroy the soul/psuche: but rather fear him which is able to destroy/to destroy fully both soul and body in hell.

LUK 9:24  For whosoever will save his life/psuche/soul shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life/psuche/soul for my sake, the same shall save it.
LUK 17:33   Whosoever shall seek to save his life/psuche/soul shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life/psuche/soul shall preserve it. 


0615 apokteino: to kill outright; fig. to destroy
0622 apollumi: to destroy fully (reflex. to perish, or lose) lit. or fig.

Hopfully this helps clarify what you're saying.  This thread has moved a bunch since my last post and I could address several issues with questions but I'm still watching the 'new rules' for parameters.  I am bound as a believer to the authority of this forum and would like to remain welcome. 

[Sorin]

Nightmare,

This is my understanding of what Jesus is saying. Do not fear those that can kill the body ( but remember when the body dies, it is seperated from the Spirit, therefore the soul also dies, and the Spirit, or God's breath of life returns back to Him) but fear Him who can Destroy both body and Soul in Gehenna. I understand that to mean, fear Him who has the power to destroy both Soul and body ( a spirit needs a body to become a living soul) into The Lake of Fire. So I don't think Jesus meant those who can not kill the soul as in those who can not literally kill the soul, I think the proper word Destroy is used and has reference to those who can not destroy the soul in the Lake of Fire. Because, Yes God has power to destroy a soul, but why would that be any different than what man can do? If it's talking about actually killing a soul? That's why I believe it is talking about being cast into The Lake of Fire, or casting into the lake of Fire which men obviosuly can not do. Just my understanding of it. Really not saying I'm right and you're wrong, and not trying to argue either.

Hope that makes sense,
Sorin

[Sorin]

Also, if we consist of Spirit, body, and Soul (as three seperate entities)then verses like "...and God breathed into his nostrils the Breath of life (Spirit) and the men BECAME a living soul" wouldn't make sense, mentions nothing of God adding a soul ( as a seperate entity) to the mix. Just like you turn on your tv, the picture and sound BECAME (soul's  emotions, memories...) on the screen. No?

[hillsbororiver]

Also, if we consist of Spirit, body, and Soul (as three seperate entities)then verses like "...and God breathed into his nostrils the Breath of life (Spirit) and the men BECAME a living soul" wouldn't make sense, mentions nothing of God adding a soul ( as a seperate entity) to the mix. Just like you turn on your tv, the picture and sound BECAME (soul's  emotions, memories...) on the screen. No?

Good points Sorin,

Or we can use the light bulb analogy, the light bulb = body, the electricity = spirit (breath of life) when electricity enters the bulb we have light (life) when the switch is turned off the electricity is back with the power company and the bulb is dark (death). We have a bulb and electricity which when combined produces light but if you remove either the bulb or the power source you have darkness.

Yes, I see Jesus Words as spiritual more than physical as the first death is
"sleep" until the resurrection, whether it be the glorious 1st or to the Lake of Fire (2nd).   

[Sorin]

That's a good analogy Joe. How home I didn't think of it, seeing as I'm an electrician and all. :lol:

[chumkin]

dang that is a good analogy, im gonna use it, thanks!!1


peace

euty, um er i mean chumkin, dang chuckt

[Deedle]

Hello,

I've been doing a study on body, soul and spirit and among many interesting things I've found are these scriptures.

Lev 21:11 (CLV)
nor to any dead soul shall he enter; even for his father or for his mother he shall not defile himself.

Num 6:6 (CLV)
All the days of his sequestration to Yahweh he shall not come near a dead soul.

Num 6:11 (CLV)
The priest will offer one for a sin offering and one for an ascent offering, and he will make a propitiatory shelter over him because of that which he had sinned concerning the dead soul. Then he will hallow his head on that day.

I did not realize a soul could be dead until seeing these.

Also in the NT the Greek noun for soul is psuchē (strongs # G5590). What I found interesting is the adjective form of the word psuchikos (strongs # G5591). It only appears 7 times in the NT. Check out its occurrences from the KJV and then from the CLV. The KJV hides it.

1Co 2:14 (KJV) 
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:14 (CLV)
Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."

1Co 15:44 (KJV) 
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:44 (CLV)
It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also.

1Co 15:46 (KJV) 
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:46 (CLV)
But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."

Jam 3:15 (KJV) 
This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

Jam 3:15 (CLV)
This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal. "

Jud 1:19 (KJV) 
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:19 (CLV)
These are those who isolate themselves, soulish, not having the spirit."

I just found it very interesting how the "soulish" seems to be connected with the physical/flesh.

Deedle 

[Lightseeker]

Post# 28
Also, if we consist of Spirit, body, and Soul (as three seperate entities)then verses like "...and God breathed into his nostrils the Breath of life (Spirit) and the men BECAME a living soul" wouldn't make sense, mentions nothing of God adding a soul ( as a seperate entity) to the mix. Just like you turn on your tv, the picture and sound BECAME (soul's  emotions, memories...) on the screen. No?

Makes sense to me.  Who was this man that became a living soul?  It doesn't say and the 'spirit and body' became a living soul, it says man became (future tense) a living soul.  Using Ray's soul definiton of "sentiment consciousness" and looking those definitons up in Websters we're not just talking about a brain which is only functioning as an programmed computer mechanically operating a physical system.  Soul transends into a realm beyond that.  An entity which has a function separate from spirit and body.  And it is that individual entity of man which follows after the lust of the flesh or the lust of the spirit.

GAL 5:17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit (lusteth) against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

What 'determines' being led of the Sspirit?  Is it a choice which must come from the "soul/conscious sentiment".  And is that more than than just the two opposing entities of a combined spirit and body/brain?

If it isn't a separate entity how do you explain the following verses?  I know I've asked about these repeatedly because what few answers that have  been given don't work for me. 

1TH 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

HEB 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body parts), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


If soul is merely a combination of two, why is it mentioned it in conjunction, and why worry about 'the picture' on TV if it doesn't have it's own separate....whatever...which determines...whatever?  What determines the 'signal' we listen or turn to?

[orion77]

Lightseeker, I am just stretching here a bit, but maybe this can shed some light.

The two verses you quoted were in the NT and speaking to believers.  True believers have what in them?...the Holy Spirit.

This Spirit, which is the Word of God, the Comforter, Christ in us, is sharper than any two edged sword, able divide asunder, to discern the intents of our heart.

Not sure if this is a help.  Yet, before Christ came to be in us, we were a soul composed of body and spirit, which is a soul.  Then, upon Christs Spirit coming in us, now we are more than what is spoken in Genesis.  That Spirit, that Word, is the Light, which is the very God of peace, which sanctifies us.

G1515
εἰρήνη
eirēnē
i-rah'-nay
Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
hag-ee-ad'-zo
From G40; to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.


This oneness, with Him in us and us in Him, and us in each other, is the greatest lesson we can learn if this life.  Let us be at peace with a holyness, from Him in the oneness that is between God and us, personally, towards a oneness in each other.  Maybe this is what these verses speak of.  Hope this helps, it helped me just looking them up.   

God bless,

Gary

[nightmare sasuke]

Hello,

I've been doing a study on body, soul and spirit and among many interesting things I've found are these scriptures.

Lev 21:11 (CLV)
nor to any dead soul shall he enter; even for his father or for his mother he shall not defile himself.

Num 6:6 (CLV)
All the days of his sequestration to Yahweh he shall not come near a dead soul.

Num 6:11 (CLV)
The priest will offer one for a sin offering and one for an ascent offering, and he will make a propitiatory shelter over him because of that which he had sinned concerning the dead soul. Then he will hallow his head on that day.

I did not realize a soul could be dead until seeing these.

Also in the NT the Greek noun for soul is psuchē (strongs # G5590). What I found interesting is the adjective form of the word psuchikos (strongs # G5591). It only appears 7 times in the NT. Check out its occurrences from the KJV and then from the CLV. The KJV hides it.

1Co 2:14 (KJV) 
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:14 (CLV)
Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."

1Co 15:44 (KJV) 
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:44 (CLV)
It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also.

1Co 15:46 (KJV) 
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:46 (CLV)
But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."

Jam 3:15 (KJV) 
This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

Jam 3:15 (CLV)
This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal. "

Jud 1:19 (KJV) 
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:19 (CLV)
These are those who isolate themselves, soulish, not having the spirit."

I just found it very interesting how the "soulish" seems to be connected with the physical/flesh.

Deedle 

"Soulish" is probably connected with the conscious existance of carnal man, which is against God, when separated from God's Holy Spirit.

[hillsbororiver]

I believe this underlines what Gary (Orion77) wrote in regard to what leads us to lose the flesh and live in spirit, it is most definitely not man's "soul."



GOD PREDETERMINES WHO GETS SAVED AND WHEN

"Now we are aware that God [Who? GOD. Men—ourselves? NO—GOD] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28-30, Concordant Literal New Testament).

It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.

It is GOD who does the calling:

"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? 'GOD'] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty..." (I Cor. 1:26-27).

It is GOD who does the dragging:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: 'drag him']..." (John 6:44).

It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:

"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU..." (John 15:16).

Eventually this will include all mankind:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).

And all will respond to God's judgments and chastisements:

"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).

And let's not forget:

"...no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).

The entire article can be read @;

http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm

[nightmare sasuke]

Post# 28
Also, if we consist of Spirit, body, and Soul (as three seperate entities)then verses like "...and God breathed into his nostrils the Breath of life (Spirit) and the men BECAME a living soul" wouldn't make sense, mentions nothing of God adding a soul ( as a seperate entity) to the mix. Just like you turn on your tv, the picture and sound BECAME (soul's  emotions, memories...) on the screen. No?

Makes sense to me.  Who was this man that became a living soul?  It doesn't say and the 'spirit and body' became a living soul, it says man became (future tense) a living soul.  Using Ray's soul definiton of "sentiment consciousness" and looking those definitons up in Websters we're not just talking about a brain which is only functioning as an programmed computer mechanically operating a physical system.  Soul transends into a realm beyond that.  An entity which has a function separate from spirit and body.  And it is that individual entity of man which follows after the lust of the flesh or the lust of the spirit.

GAL 5:17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit (lusteth) against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

What 'determines' being led of the Sspirit?  Is it a choice which must come from the "soul/conscious sentiment".  And is that more than than just the two opposing entities of a combined spirit and body/brain?

If it isn't a separate entity how do you explain the following verses?  I know I've asked about these repeatedly because what few answers that have  been given don't work for me. 

1TH 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

HEB 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body parts), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


If soul is merely a combination of two, why is it mentioned it in conjunction, and why worry about 'the picture' on TV if it doesn't have it's own separate....whatever...which determines...whatever?  What determines the 'signal' we listen or turn to?

Here's a quote from my paper:

While man can be said to have a nephesh—that is, sensation or life—man does not have a ghost-like third component floating within his body. Nephesh is the result, but is not a component. It is important to realize that soul and spirit should not be considered synonymous. Some argue, however, that man has an eternally existing third component within his body and many call this component a soul. However, as shown, a soul is the combination of body and spirit, and is not a third component. Nevertheless, detractors try to prove their misconstrued opinion by quoting 1 Thessalonians 5:23, in which body, soul, and spirit are all used in the same verse.


"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul [psuche] and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Th 5:23, KJV).

However, this in no way disproves the fact that man is a soul—one participating in the human experience and sensation of life. For the word translated soul in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 is the Greek word psuche, which, in fact, is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word nephesh. For example, the LXX translates nephesh in Genesis 2:7 with the Greek word psuche, the very word used in 1 Thessalonians 5:23:


"και επλασεν ο θεος τον ανθρωπον χουν απο της γης και ενεφυσησεν εις το προσωπον αυτου πνοην ζωης και εγενετο ο ανθρωπος εις ψυχην ζωσαν" (Gen 2:7, Septuagint).

In other words, psuche carries the same meaning as the Hebrew word nephesh. So what was Paul praying? He was basically praying that the reader's spirit (breath), the combination of the body and spirit resulting in the experience and sensation of life—the soul, psuche, or nephesh (the conscious being)—and the spirit will remain blameless unto the coming of Jesus Christ, most likely as a result of abstaining from both physical and spiritual fornication.

[rocky]

So what goes into the Lake of Fire??  Soul?? 

[nightmare sasuke]

So what goes into the Lake of Fire??  Soul?? 

Spirit + (spiritual) body = (glorified immortal) soul, goes into the lake of fire.