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Author Topic: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF  (Read 3871 times)

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mikeb209

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I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« on: November 27, 2010, 11:50:20 PM »

I've read Rays teachings and pretty much agree with most of it.

But regarding the lake of fire Ray says that the LOF is the judgment
and that sinners and saints alike are judged by this same fire.

From the LOF series part E:,

"The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:8). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGEMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!

I'm sorry but I don't see it. The LOF is obviously AFTER the judgement
and not the judgment itself.

It's like going in front of the judge and if you're found guilty you're thrown
into prison, (the lake of fire).

The lake of fire is for the unsaved only. 

 If anyone's  name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown
into the lake of fire. ...  - Revelation 20:15

Those who overcome will not be hurt by the second death. (Rev. 2:11)

Believers/over comers have no part in any second death/lake of fire. We die once and that's it.

The lake of fire is for the condemned.  And "there is no condemnation to those
who are in Christ Jesus". (Rom 8:1)

I love Ray and his teachings and I'm sorry to say it, but I think Ray is badly mistaken here.

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Arion

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2010, 12:50:17 AM »

First of all welcome to the forum.  Secondly though...it's probably not good to start your first post with a disagreement with the teachings.  The way it works around here is that if you disagree with something that Ray has taught then send him an email and he'll be glad to discuss it with you as he is able to.  Ray has said that he's not perfect and he is willing to be shown that he is wrong on something.  But you better be able to find at least two scriptures that show that what Ray has taught is in error.  Perhaps the better way to handle this is not to start a post saying that you think that Ray is wrong but instead saying that you don't understand what he is teaching here and ask for clarification to help you to understand what Ray has said.  The scriptures are spiritual.  What Ray has taught us is spiritual.  The book of Revelation is spiritual and not literal.  When we take Revelation and attempt to make it literal we get into all sorts of contradictions.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 12:53:57 AM by Arion »
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Kat

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2010, 01:07:47 AM »


Hi Mike209,

Welcome to the forum. You should reread the article again, sometimes it takes several reads to get a grasp on what is being said. Here is an excerpt from the same article.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ---------------------

GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH IN FIRE

We would do well to review lessons we learned in the "Lake of Fire" Installment 3, Judgment by Fire Must Begin at the House of God, and Installment 6, The Two Judgments by FIRE, and Installment 16, D-3, The Sermon on the Mount is for YOU. Recapping quickly:

*Jesus taught that "Gehenna fire" is first applicable to US, His Disciples & Elect:

"But I say unto you [Christ's disciples, the Elect, YOU, right now] ...shall be in danger of Gehenna fire" (Matt. 5:22).

"And if thy right eye offend you [the eye of a disciple, any true follower of Jesus Christ] ...thy whole body [body of His disciples, that's us] should be cast into Gehenna" (Verse 29-30).

*He said this fire was "...already kindled" during His ministry (Luke 12:49).

Jesus comes to us as a Comforter, but also as a Refiner. All the symbolic, spiritual fires of Scripture are the same fire. The fire of Gehenna, eonian fire, unquenchable fire, furnace of fire, salted with fire, fire already kindled, God's consuming fire, chaff burning fire, tares burning fire, fiery trials, ministry of flaming fire, and lake of fire are all the same spiritual consuming fire of God. And they all accomplish the same thing--THEY PURIFY
v

"And I saw another sign in heaven...And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God" (Rev. 15:1 & 2).

Yes, these are the Elect of God who are now before the Throne of God and are standing on a beautiful crystal clear sea of glass. They have been tamed. They have conquered the beast within and the beast of Babylon without. They are shown victorious over the beast, his image, his mark and his name, but it came at a price. Did you notice the words "sea of glass mingled with FIRE?" Yes, the world must go through the fire, the lake of fire/second death, and so must God's Elect.
v

the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."

The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.

Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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aqrinc

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2010, 01:08:44 AM »

The lake of fire is for the unsaved only.
I've read Rays teachings and pretty much agree with most of it.

But regarding the lake of fire Ray says that the LOF is the judgment
and that sinners and saints alike are judged by this same fire.

From the LOF series part E:,

"The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:8). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGEMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!

I'm sorry but I don't see it. The LOF is obviously AFTER the judgement
and not the judgment itself.

It's like going in front of the judge and if you're found guilty you're thrown
into prison, (the lake of fire).

The lake of fire is for the unsaved only. 

 If anyone's  name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown
into the lake of fire. ...  - Revelation 20:15

Those who overcome will not be hurt by the second death. (Rev. 2:11)

Believers/over comers have no part in any second death/lake of fire. We die once and that's it.

The lake of fire is for the condemned.  And "there is no condemnation to those
who are in Christ Jesus". (Rom 8:1)

I love Ray and his teachings and I'm sorry to say it, but I think Ray is badly mistaken here.

Hello mikeb209,

Interesting introduction, i take it you read the forum rules before agreeing to sign up and abide by them? You may want to review the rules before continuing. Besides it is a bit rude to just jump in and start calling out people before even knowing what you are seeing.

You state:
Quote
I've read Rays teachings and pretty much agree with most of it.

But regarding the lake of fire Ray says that the LOF is the judgment
and that sinners and saints alike are judged by this same fire.


Then proceed to contradict yourself right away. Good idea to organize your thoughts better, before spewing out corrections left and right.

george.

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Rene

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2010, 01:52:52 AM »

Hi mikeb209:

Welcome to the forum.  Since you are a new member, I would like to encourage you to review the forum rules before posting.  This would insure that you are in compliance with the way this forum operates.  For your convenience, I have copied the rules below:

This forum and how it is moderated, is different than most all religious based forums on the internet so please read carefully.

If you are considering joining this forum before reading and studying  www.bible-truths.com, please reconsider.
It would be beneficial to all involved if you take the time to familiarize yourself with the teaching of L.Ray Smith first.

This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.


THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS

Please do not make sport of persons who email Ray. Leave any criticism of the individual to Ray.

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This forum is moderated, if you feel you cannot accept the bounds of a limited forum then donít join.  The moderators do not have the time to explain every decision to you on why a post was deleted, so donít expect it.

The moderators will generally try to remove posts before banning a member, donít take it personally.  If you see your posts being removed then perhaps you should review what you are writing to make sure is goes along with the forum rules.  If you are asked to let a subject drop, or a particular subject is off limits then please abide by what the moderators ask.  Donít necessarily expect a reason for the request, many things go on behind the scenes of the forum and the moderators are doing what they feel is best.

If you have a problem with a moderator, the way the forum is managed, or another user of the forum then address this through private mails.  Publicly airing your grievances could be grounds for banishment, and will get your post deleted.

Learn to use the private mail function.  If you don't know how then ask.



I hope this will help you as you go forward in fellowshipping here. :)

Renť
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 02:07:09 AM by Rene »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2010, 02:10:19 AM »

It's helpful in your reading to get a better grasp on all the concepts.  You liken 'judgement' as "It's like going in front of the judge and if you're found guilty you're thrown into prison, (the lake of fire)."  That's not the complete picture.  God's judgment may begin with a finding of gulty or not guilty, but His judgement includes the 'sentencing' AND the fulfillment of the 'sentence' as well...the 'prison time' by your analogy.  Judgement in the lake of fire is a process, not an event, as those of us undergoing His judgements now are aware.

As others have shared, it's also important to know that these 'happenings' in scripture are not literal...not even simply symbolic...but Spiritual.

By your own word, you don't see it now.  I invite you to keep reading and also to ask for clarification if something has you stumped.  But it's not our purpose here to convince you. 

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

mikeb209

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2010, 02:58:44 AM »

Yes I do apologize for jumping right in like that as a new member. I guess that is kind of rude.
I kinda don't feel new though cause I visit the forum all the time as a guest  ;)

George, I don't see how I contradicted myself just by saying "I agree with MOST of Rays teachings".

You must have overlooked the word "most" which of course does not mean all.

It's ok though we all make mistakes. ;D

I'm here to learn the truth of God's Word. I know Ray is ill right now and I know he gets lots of emails so I didn't really want to bother him.

I know that there are alot of knowledgeable brothers and sisters here on the forum so I decided to post my issue here in hopes that someone can provide some insight on the issue.

I've read Rays article on this issue several times and been through all of his material at least twice.

It still seems clear to me that the LOF is exclusively for the unbelievers.

Ray quotes Matt 5:22 to show that  Gehenna fire applies to believers as well.

But all it says there is that we are "in danger" of Gehenna fire.

The Bible says in 1 Peter 4:18 that "the righteous are scarcely saved".

Scarcely being saved is the same as being "in danger of gehenna fire" ?

It doesn't mean that we go through Gehenna fire/lake of fire ?

That's for the non believers only who are not found in the book of life right?

I don't know, I just don't get it.  ???

I'm just looking for some clarification on this issue,

Mike
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2010, 03:56:30 AM »

Hi again, Mike.  Kat's excerpt from Ray is very clear.  I think what you are failing to see right now is that ALL mankind is being/will be judged, and judged by (spiritual) fire.  You're also not clear on just what judgement IS, so it's not likely you can understand what it is for.

That's a big part of what seperates 'us' from our 'christian' friends and families.  They do all they can (and invent theologies) to help them avoid judgement.  We understand that God's judgements are just, loving, and for a wonderful purpose.  The more we grow, the more we seek out God's judgements.  They (all of them) are the means by which God produces Sons and Daughters in the image of His Son.

Until you clear up those 'issues', it's really kinda pointless talking about the various 'types' of judgements, and the various 'names' for judgement except to satisfy curiosity.  Try reading just Kat's post above (for starters) considering your own need for judgement and see if that helps you understand.  If it does, you will more easily be able to see what Ray is saying in the LOF series and everywhere else in his published teaching.   

   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Dawidos

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2010, 07:08:53 AM »

Hi Mike

I don't think Ray is mistaken when discussing Lake of Fire. You should have in your mind that the main point of this series of articles was to overthrow unscriptural christian doctrines which state that Lake of Fire is some kind of Hell manifestation when the Devil and his evil, horrible demon companions rule and torture the sinners, mostly by using fire which burns forever. By this statement Ray just wanted to show that this fire is the same spiritual fire that tests every man's works. Every man has to die a second death (death of his/her carnality and sinful nature), the only question is how and when. The Elects are dying a second death during their lifetime, the others after the White Throne Judgment. It can be assumed that that's why God's chosen ones are suffering in this life, which is much better than the punishment inflicted on the wicked and unbelievers after the second ressurection. But it is the same FIRE!!!!

So Ray's statement is right, from a certain point of view, like Obi-Wan Kenobi would say :) :D

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Samson

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2010, 10:54:39 AM »

Hi Mike,

Apparently, I was at work when You made Your initial Post last night.As was previously stated by others regarding the Forum Rules(Emailing Ray if in Disagreement), You could privately Email a Moderator through the Personal Message option before starting a Thread like this at General Discussions. However, Copied and Pasted below in blue, I've included some information of Ray's derived from a Thread I started from July 2010 entitled: Greek Words Defined & Usage explaining the Greek Word PUR(translated in English as FIRE) to assist you further. Rarely in Scripture is the word FIRE to be taken Physically Literal. The Valley of The Son of Hinnon(Ge'-Valley; Henna-Hinnom) was a Garbage Dump that burned out Centuries ago, it was located outside the Southwest Walls of Jerusalem. Once it served it's purpose in Burning up the refuse, it burned out on it's own. The Israelites committed acts of Pagan Idolatry by sacrificing their First Born Infants to the god Molech prior to this Valley becoming a Garbage Dump, a thing detestable to God, something that He did not command or that came into His Heart(Jeremiah. 7:31). Read Information from Ray, below in Blue regarding the word FIRE from the Greek word PUR and it's usage. (Caps are mine for Emphasis).

definition in Strongís Concordance. In my Strongís Exhaustive Concordance that I purchased over forty years ago, it has but one line after the Greek word pur. It states that pur is "fire" either (literal or figurative), fiery, lightning. Thatís it. So when I purchased the NEW Strongís Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible last week, I was pleasantly surprised to see the expanded definitions, especially with reference to this word "pur" -- FIRE. I learned the use of the word "fire" in Scripture the hard way -- I had to research.

We could easily spend twenty pages just commenting on the examples used in this expanded version of Strongís. I wonít do that, but letís take a brief look at a few enlightening items: First, we learn that this word can be, and is, used "figuratively." And in fact, the first five examples given in Strongís ARE examples of figurative usage of the word fire. And of the 500+ times the word 'fire' is used in the Bible, hundreds of times the word 'fire' is used in a figurative or symbolic sense.
Well, yes, it does appear that there is a judgment on the house of God, but certainly not a judgment by FIRE, is there? Doesnít God judge non-believers with fire, but not believers? This only sounds strange to you if you have never been taught the Scriptures.

"Beloved, think it NOT STRANGE concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some STRANGE thing happened unto you" (I Pet. 4:12).

Peter makes it sound as though going through fiery trails is the norm rather than the exception. The New Testament is filled with the fiery trials of the Saints.

Now I hope that none will be offended at my next few statements, but if so, so be it. Unless God Almighty through the purging power of His FIERY SPIRIT, is BURNING OUT the lusts and passions and vanity and haughtiness and greed and self-righteousness and laziness and weakness and hypocrisy and wickedness and pride and materialism and cynicism and depravity and carnality in your life, then Jesus Christ is not choosing you to reign with Him as the Sons of God in the Kingdom of God to bring all Heaven and Earth to repentance and salvation!

And I will tell you on the authority of Jesus Christ and all the Holy Scriptures, that anyone who teaches and takes delight in thinking that God would ever torture anyone for all eternity, will NEVER BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITH SUCH AN ATTITUDE!

Such damnable character flaws of the mind and spirit are going to be burned out of us all! God will either BURN OUT these filthy impurities from our hearts and minds NOW, or He will BURN THEM OUT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, but either way, make no mistake about it, THESE THINGS ARE COMING OUT!!!

JOHN THE BAPTIST: John the Baptist said that Jesus would be baptizing repentant believers with fire.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto REPENTANCE: but He that comes after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND WITH FIRE" (Matt. 3:11).

JESUS CHRIST:

"For EVERY ONE [sinner and saint] shall be salted with FIRE" (Mark 9:49).

"Every manís work [including believers] shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE, and the FIRE shall try every manís work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).

With such noble and august witnesses, does anyone deny that the repentant, converted, dedicated, believing Christian will escape being "revealed," tried," "salted," and "baptized" by FIRE? These Scriptures are undeniable! Whatever this "fire" is, it is going to be used ON EVERYONE. These four Scriptures have the believer specifically in view, but it says and includes "EVERYONE shall be salted with FIRE," and "EVERY MANíS WORK ... shall be revealed by FIRE."

And there is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE when it comes to the non-believers:

"And I saw a great white throne ... And I saw the dead... and the dead were JUDGED... according to their WORKS... and they were judged EVERY MAN according to their WORKS" (Rev. 20:11-13).

And are these non-believers judged differently from believers who are "revealed, tried, salted and baptized IN FIRE?" Just HOW are these non-believers judged in the book of Revelation? How are the "...fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars..." JUDGED? Answer: "...In the lake WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE..." (Rev. 21:Cool!

Is this "fire" in the book of Revelation DIFFERENT from the fire that tries the works of believers in the book of I Corinthians? NO. The word "fire" used in the four examples above concerning believers, is the SAME word "fire" used in the book of Revelation concerning non-believers:

STRONGís Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 219, #4442, pur; a primary word; "fire" (literally OR FIGURATIVELY. Pur is used (besides its ordinary natural significance):

(1) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Heb. 10:27; 12:29; cf. Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12;

(1a) similarly of the holy angels as His ministers, Heb. 1:7;

(1b) in Rev. 3:18 it is SYMBOLIC of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD;

(2) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ I Cor. 3:13 and 15;

(3) of the fire of DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the REJECTERS of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the holy Spirit at Pentecost and the "fire" of divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Lk. 3:16."

End of quotation, (All CAPS emphasis are mine).

I was quite amazed to see this broadened
I call your attention to the statement in Strongís (1b) "In Rev. 3:18 it [fire] is SYMBOLIC, of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD"! (CAPS emphasis mine).

I just love it when Christian Scholars will occasionally just absolutely "nail" a Scriptural Truth. Notice this beautiful and profound Scriptural Truth: The symbolic fire of Rev. 3:18 tries the faith of the saints, and PRODUCES what will GLORIFY THE LORD! ASTOUNDING!

Carefully note that it is not the "believer" who "produces" these glorious things, but it is the "SYMBOLIC FIRE" that produces them. And just Who is this "symbolic fire?" It is, of course, GOD -- "For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)!

Therefore it is GOD who "PRODUCES" qualities in the saints that will GLORIFY HIMSELF! Godís consuming SPIRITUAL fire (remember that "GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24) does the "producing," not the saint,

"For HIS ACHIEVEMENT are we, being created in Christ Jesus..." (Eph. 2:10).

"Now what have you which you did not OBTAIN? Now if you OBTAINED it also [from GOD] why are you boasting as though [you are] not obtaining [it from God]?" (I Cor. 4:7 Concordant Literal New Testament).

"All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18).

"The One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will" (Eph. 1:11).

Etc.

In statement (1) the editor of Strongís cites seven more Scriptures that are used symbolically and figuratively to demonstrate "the holiness of God, which CONSUMES ALL that is inconsistent therewith." It doesnít consume their physical bodies, nor does it burn their physical bodies to produce pain, but it "CONSUMES" all that is not consistent with Godís holiness. And these are the things of the heart, mind and spirit! It is not the "body" that needs chastisement and purification, it is the MIND, HEART, AND SPIRIT that needs purification from unholiness. You cannot burn pride and vanity out of oneís heart with REAL FIRE (besides the advocates of torturing with real fire for all eternity admit that it accomplishes NOTHING). It takes the fire of Godís spirit to burn away evils that have their origin in the realm of spirit.

This teaching is so absolutely elementary that it seems strange to even have to explain it. And yet, many of the greatest minds in theology today have not a clue as to these simple spiritual truths. All over the world Christian leaders continue to teach that the way God will deal with people who have wicked and carnal hearts, minds, and spirits, is to BURN THEIR FLESH IN REAL FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY! And what, pray tell, does this infinite mountain of eternal pain accomplish? Why it is "justice" cry the high priests of Christendom!

Websterís Concise Dictionary p. 392, justice n. 1. The quality of being just, fair, or impartial; evenhandedness.

So first and foremost we are told that burning billions and billions of men and women, and boy and girls, in fire for all eternity is "QUALITY!" - QUALITY? HELL IS A PLACE OF "QUALITY?" Just how sick can the human mind get, and just how low can the human heart sink? And this not from infidels, but from the leading advocates of the Christian Faith!

BACK TO SPIRITUAL BASICS

God gives us perfectly simple and understandable examples of HOW He deals with our sins and faults. In Hebrews 12:6 we read:

"For whom the LORD loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not?"

Of course when we ask this question today, the answer is not so obvious as back when the writer of Hebrews asked it. Less and less children are chastened by their fathers today, and look at the disastrous results. But ideally a son should be chastened -- chastened, not BEATEN! Maybe I need to investigate this matter one day. Just maybe those who teach the hardest for an eternal hell of pain are those who were physically molested and beaten as children, rather than lovingly chastised. Continuing:

"Furthermore we have had fathers of our FLESH which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of SPIRITS, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His HOLINESS.

Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb. 12:9-11).

This is not difficult to understand. Our fathers in the FLESH have corrected us with rods, straps, belts, sticks, paddles, and the back of their hand. This was done for our teaching and correcting. And it worked, "...we gave them reverence..." Now then, "...shall we not MUCH RATHER be in subjection unto the Father of SPIRITS..."?

Our Heavenly Father is NOT FLESH, but is the Father of SPIRITS! God is SPIRIT. God is working with our SPIRITUAL life. God does not chasten and correct us believers in Christ Jesus with physical rods, straps, belts, sticks, paddles, and the back of His hand! So how is it that God our Father of spirits accomplishes on a spiritual level what our physical fathers tried to accomplish on a physical level? Verse 29 gives us the answer: "For our God is a CONSUMING FIRE !"

As trash is burned and precious metals are purified by the use of LITERAL and PHYSICAL fire, so God burns our spiritual trash and purifies those qualities of character worth saving by His SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL fire. Physical fire is inanimate and uncaring. Godís spiritual fire is caring and loving.

There it is. Thereís the gospel; thereís the purpose for human existence; thereís the plan of God. God is forming man into the very image of Himself. This requires not only a knowledge of good and evil, but an experience of good and evil. God provides both. He is calling just a few select ones out of this world now, and He will call the remainder of the human race later.

Some sinners are called, given faith, brought to Christ, repent, receive Godís spirit and are being saved NOW. All the rest of the worldís sinners will also be called, given faith, brought to Christ, repent, receive Godís spirit and will be saved LATER. And God uses the same method to convert and save both groups of sinners. Thatís because God CHANGES NOT and God is NO RESPECTER of persons, and God WILLS to save all mankind, and God will perform ALL HIS WILL, PURPOSE, AND PLEASURE!! All of the above verses regarding fire are used in a figurative and symbolic manner. Christ does not literally "baptize" (IMMERSE) His saints in REAL PHYSICAL FIRE. It would burn them all up, and there wouldnít be any saints or believers! Likewise we saw in Part I that the "lake of fire" is also symbolic and used in a metaphor to describe a SPIRITUAL TRUTH. More on this later.

And so we are assured that EVERYONE will be "revealed," "tried," "salted," and "baptized" "in FIRE." And these fiery trials as Peter calls them go on for a lifetime. If it were real, physical fire, all believersí lives would be short indeed. God is SPIRIT, and God is a CONSUMING FIRE. It is Godís SPIRIT that is likened to fire. The spiritual teaching in this symbol is to recognize what real fire accomplishes and to then use that as an analogy as to what God DOES TO US (or more properly FOR US).

Fire does a number of things:

Fire CHANGES things. Fire brings about molecular changes in the materials that are burned. Godís spiritual fire will make changes in our mind, heart, and spirit.

Fire PURGES. In times past if a building were diseased and rat-infested, they would purge away the filth by burning it down. We are to be purged from all our diseases of sin and carnality. Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin for us, but now God wants to get at the root and core of what caused us to sin in the first place. We all need desperately to be CHANGED and PURGED.

Fire BURNS UP combustible materials that have no value in saving. God will burn out of all of us the straw, grass, and stubble, which represent evil and wrong doctrines, idols of the heart, and philosophies that exalt themselves against God.

Fire PURIFIES things of value which we do want to retain. The analogy is used in the Scriptures of purifying gold by fire to make it more beautiful and more valuable. Gold represents the highest doctrines of spiritual understanding such as the Love of God and the Sovereignty of God, and salvation of all.

No one teaches us more regarding the fiery trials of life than the apostle to the nations, Paul. Paul was "revealed, tried, salted, and baptized" in Godís "CONSUMING FIRE," and yet never a single hair on his head was ever singed.
 As time allows, I'll try to add more, hoping others have the time to contribute, eventually I'd like to make copies for study purposes, pretty soon we will be reading Ray's new paper and I'm sure he will be critiquing the word FIRE and how it's used.

                                     Kind Regards, Samson.
 
The above information derived from the Topic at General Discussions: Greek Words defined and Usage, but originally quoted from Ray's Material(LOF Series). Remember, first comes the Physical than the Spiritual. Exp-Physical Fire in the Valley of Hinnom Garbage Dump burning Physical trash and Spiritual(not literal) Fire burning Spiritual Trash(Carnal Desires, filth that emanates from ones thoughts, fleshly thinking, etc.).

                      Hope This Helps, Samson.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 03:54:16 PM by Samson »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2010, 11:36:28 AM »

Hi mikeb209

Our BTF  brothers and sisters, have studied to answer you well.

Pro 15:28  The heart of the righteous studieth to answer:, 8)
 
I believe you might see that the following Scriptures endorse the Doctrine Ray expounds regarding the Elect and the Second Death.

Act 28:5  And he (Paul) shook off THE BEAST INTO THE FIRE, and (Paul) FELT NO HARM.
1Pe 3:13  And who is he that will HARM you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The spiritual death  of the carnal man,  Adam of the earth,  out of which we are raised up by the Spirit of God, to meet our final redemption in Christ, is in an order, God appoints, firstly, on HIS House. 

The spiritual  baptism into the death of Christ, and the spiritual death of the Crucifixion of Christ, brings the inward groaning  anticipation for the fullness of redemption, lived daily, as children of God, who have received the earnest of His Spirit within, who die daily, yet walk in newness of life!

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I believe what Ray says, that the Scriptures donít mean what they say! They mean what they mean.
 
First and second, in the Scriptures, donít mean what they say, as literally number one and two.  Jesus says, physical death is SLEEP. The death Ray expounds,  is spiritual.
Judgment on the House of God now, is a dying daily to carnality and the world, that we endure, imprisoned in clay, until the full redemption of our souls. Until then, we groan inwardly for that manifestation of the Sons and Daughters of God to be declared by God.

As such, the Elect of God live in His bond of Peace, as they wait in expectation for that time when God shall declare them.

The Elect are in Judgment on the House of God, now, and shall not come up in the White Throne Judgment on the world. They shall be the White Throne Judgment on the world as they return with Christ in Judgment upon the world.

I enjoy how Ray expounds that Judgment is not limited to sentence but also reward. One can indeed be found guilty or not guilty, depending on God who makes His Vessels, one to His Glory and others to dishonor. This ties in with none of us having the privilege or power of free-will.

Isa 33:14  ................ Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15  He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;


Those among us in Judgment on the House of God now, are those appointed to dwell with the devouring fire with everlasting burnings as we are persecuted, assailed, despised and rejected as was Jesus Christ before us.  The Elect are as a first fruits of Christ, who suffer  trials and tribulations,assault, persecution, doubt, disdain and false accusations as did our Savior before us.

If you look again at what Ray expounds, I believe Ray is in harmony with what the Scriptures mean. 8)
Welcome to the Forum dear brother

Your sister
Arc
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Kat

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2010, 12:57:53 PM »


Hi Mike,

Quote
It still seems clear to me that the LOF is exclusively for the unbelievers.

Scarcely being saved is the same as being "in danger of gehenna fire" ?

It doesn't mean that we go through Gehenna fire/lake of fire ?

I think you have the right idea, just need a little help sorting it out. Here is another excerpt from the article that Samson posted from.


http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html -------

The Lake of Fire
PART III

JUDGMENT BY FIRE MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD

GODíS TWO AREAS AND ERAS OF JUDGMENT

Before God brings a final judgment on the entirety of the world, He must first perform another judgment on another group of people. This judgment is going on right now. The world is totally unaware of this judgment, although it has been going on for two thousand years. It is happening behind the scenes. Only a relative few are participating in this judgment by fire, and they are all volunteers!

We know for a fact that there is coming a WORLDWIDE judgment on mankind, for Scripture has stated such:

"Because He hath appointed A DAY, in which He will JUDGE THE WORLD [Greek" inhabited earth] in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31).

Most have at least heard of this judgment even if they have no solid understanding of what it is all about or its primary purpose. We will have a great deal to say about this judgment later. But first we will take a look at another judgment almost universally unknown in the world of Christendom. It is a judgment that involves believers, NOW!

Peter, who was given many keys to the kingdom, introduces this judgment to us:

"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For   the TIME IS COME that JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD..." (I Pet. 4:16-17).

What do you know about this judgment on the house of God. Do you know anything specific? Well, donít feel too badly, most people donít. Apparently theologians and clergymen donít know too much either, seeing that it is not a popular subject to teach. If they had even a superficial understanding of Godís judgments on the house of God, they wouldnít interpret the great white throne and the lake of fire as some hideous act of divine eternal terrorism. These two judgments have much in common.
v
 
Such damnable character flaws of the mind and spirit are going to be burned out of us all! God will either BURN OUT these filthy impurities from our hearts and minds NOW, or He will BURN THEM OUT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, but either way, make no mistake about it, THESE THINGS ARE COMING OUT!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------


1Peter 4:17  For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God...

So as you can see judgment has begun now on "the house of God" which is the very few - believers - Elect, in this age. But the majority of mankind are not being called out and judged at this time, in this age.

John 12:47  And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

When Christ came He was the sin offering that was sacrified for the sins of the world "one for all" (Rom 6:10). But for now God is not opening the blind eyes of the world so that they believe and He is not judging them at this time. This age is when He is calling out a very few to prepare to rule with Him in 'the next age,' which will be when the rest of mankind will began their judgment by being cast into the LOF at the great white throne judgment.

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Marky Mark

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2010, 01:57:23 PM »

Quote
But regarding the lake of fire Ray says that the LOF is the judgment
and that sinners and saints alike are judged by this same fire
.

All judgement is the same Spiritual fire,One fire,One judgement.

I believe Ray is speaking of the judgement by fire that all of mankind must go through,that being ,the second death in which all mankind must endure.The elect must go through this second death now,in the house of God,now.

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 Both the wicked and the elect have to go through a second death by spiritual fire,the elect now in this fleshy life and the wicked latter in the LOF which is the elect judging the rest of the world.

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Ecc 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

 Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.



Peace...Mark
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2010, 06:27:01 AM »

Quote
It still seems clear to me that the LOF is exclusively for the unbelievers.


Hi Mike,

I think I get where you are coming from brother.

I have been perplexed by that statement Ray presents that tie's both first and second death together. I admit, it can be mis-understood and produce many questions. Only recently, I was blessed with the insight to see the fullness of truth in this statement.

Ray expounds that we are all out of Adam. We are all unbelievers at first. Even the Elect are called out of darkness into the light. Ray writes that the elect were once deceived too.
 
The LOF is Judgment. No one is exempt of Judgment. We are all saved in Judgment.

Quote
Ray quotes Matt 5:22 to show that  Gehenna fire applies to believers as well.

All the Scriptures apply to us. Not just some we like and others we reject as being applicable to us. Ray expounds that the sum total of Godís word is Truth. So, all Scripture applies to us. The total of Godís Word is Truth. We love the Truth.

Quote
But all it says there is that we are "in danger" of Gehenna fire.

We overcome  ďdangerĒ through the Spirit of God causing in us obedience to His Council, compliance to His Word and gratitude for His Spirit that gives us reverential understanding of the difference between good and evil. We all have to learn through the training of His Spirit, how to understand His Word.


Quote

The Bible says in 1 Peter 4:18 that "the righteous are scarcely saved".

Scarcely being saved is the same as being "in danger of gehenna fire" ?

It doesn't mean that we go through Gehenna fire/lake of fire ?

That's for the non believers only who are not found in the book of life right?

 The completion in that understanding is in the Truth that Scarcely saved, being in danger of Gehenna fire, is for the ELECT who are experiencing their one death in this age ahead of the world that will be Judged on their day of Judgment. The elect are in Judgment in their physical life times and as such God is preparing them to be resurrected with the righteous not with the wicked who will face the White Throne Judgment.

You have noted well Mike, that Ray does tie the first AND second death into one Judgment. I believe you are gifted with a critical and analytical mind.

 There IS one death, and one Judgment. Ray has made no mistake. The Elect are experiencing their one death ahead of those who shall experience theirs in the LOF. There is no mistake or contradiction.

I hope this shares with you a deeper insight into how God is bringing about His Judgment, firstly, on the Elect in this age, and secondly, on the world, in the Day of Judgment.

Don't be confused by the ORDER in which God brings His Judgment to the Elect first and the wicked after. As God is the same, so too is His Judgment.

Blessings to you in appreciation for your earnest seeking of the truth

Your Sister in Christ
Deborah
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Arion

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2010, 09:49:30 AM »

Mike;

Also don't forget that we have to look at the totality of God's word on the subject.  If the orthodox teaching on 'hell' and the Lake of fire are correct then we contradict and have to throw away the hundreds of scriptures that point to the salvation of all that have been expounded in the teachings.  With Ray's teachings on the lake of fire the scriptures are in perfect harmony and don't contradict themselves.  The problem with the orthodox teachings are contradictions, contradictions and still more contradictions.  In their mindset there are more scriptures that indicate what they believe about hell so they pile the 'hell' scriptures on one side of the balance and the salvation of all scriptures on the other side of the balance and since they think that the hell side is heavier then that is what they go with.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those who believe in the traditional hell should really tremble over the above verse as it includes the fearful are going into the lake along with the murderers, ect.  Since scripture interprets scripture what is the interpretation of the lof verses?  There is only one other scripture that deals with 'fire' and interprets what these lof verses mean.

1Co 3:13-15  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.   If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

There is our explanation on the lake of fire and what it does.  It is for every man both the believers and unbelievers, none are excluded.  And it is extremely important to note that the fire of God burns the man's works and not the man itself.  This is in perfect harmony with the rest of the scriptures.  Otherwise were left with all sorts of contradictions such as God says that it is an abomination to burn men with real fire.

Jer 32:35  And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

With the orthodox teaching on hell and the lake of fire we are left with the fact that God is going to perform an abomination by burning men in real fire.  These are things that the believers who are still stuck in the babylon religious system hardly ever think about.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 09:52:24 AM by Arion »
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judith collier

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Re: I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2010, 07:21:35 AM »

Hi Mike, in case you consider these teachings of Ray's wrong or confusing or just the views of a man in Alabama or an independent thinker, I just want to say I found this stuff rather easy to understand and i attended mainstream churches (Catholic, Protestant and Evangelical) for over 50 yrs and actually the lake of fire was called purgatory in the Catholic church, a place of purging, because none of us are going to see God unless we are cleaned up. And dying to oneself (this is pretty mainstream too but not taught as much as it needs to be) and living in Christ is by no means easy, it is a time of judgement, suffering and dying, thus the term Christian soldiers. Either now or later.
I am not saying the Catholic church is correct in all their teachings because like most churches they have watered the gospel down and added teachings of their own or zero in on just a few. The only reason I bring this up is to reiterate that Ray is no strange bird or some cult leader but rather a man who has delved into his studies like i have never seen before and the mainstream churches are not doing a good job of teaching these very important truths. Some articles here i had to read over and over or ask questions until i saw it for myself
I could never understand how a loving God would not deliver me from my troubles until I came here and realized from Ray that this is a good thing because it is how we learn and perservere by being together and studying with people who just know this is the truth.
When confronted by new teachings it can be difficult at first and there were a few times I got upset but you have to hang in here and give it some respect until you see these teachings by the enlightment of God's Holy Spirit.
I know you were just bringing up one subject but I also know some people get very scared and upset when challenged. I did. For your own sake please continue because you will not find the whole tuth anywhere else.
love Judy

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