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I think Ray is mistaken regarding the LOF
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi mikeb209
Our BTF brothers and sisters, have studied to answer you well.
Pro 15:28 The heart of the righteous studieth to answer:, 8)
I believe you might see that the following Scriptures endorse the Doctrine Ray expounds regarding the Elect and the Second Death.
Act 28:5 And he (Paul) shook off THE BEAST INTO THE FIRE, and (Paul) FELT NO HARM.
1Pe 3:13 And who is he that will HARM you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The spiritual death of the carnal man, Adam of the earth, out of which we are raised up by the Spirit of God, to meet our final redemption in Christ, is in an order, God appoints, firstly, on HIS House.
The spiritual baptism into the death of Christ, and the spiritual death of the Crucifixion of Christ, brings the inward groaning anticipation for the fullness of redemption, lived daily, as children of God, who have received the earnest of His Spirit within, who die daily, yet walk in newness of life!
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
I believe what Ray says, that the Scriptures don’t mean what they say! They mean what they mean.
First and second, in the Scriptures, don’t mean what they say, as literally number one and two. Jesus says, physical death is SLEEP. The death Ray expounds, is spiritual.
Judgment on the House of God now, is a dying daily to carnality and the world, that we endure, imprisoned in clay, until the full redemption of our souls. Until then, we groan inwardly for that manifestation of the Sons and Daughters of God to be declared by God.
As such, the Elect of God live in His bond of Peace, as they wait in expectation for that time when God shall declare them.
The Elect are in Judgment on the House of God, now, and shall not come up in the White Throne Judgment on the world. They shall be the White Throne Judgment on the world as they return with Christ in Judgment upon the world.
I enjoy how Ray expounds that Judgment is not limited to sentence but also reward. One can indeed be found guilty or not guilty, depending on God who makes His Vessels, one to His Glory and others to dishonor. This ties in with none of us having the privilege or power of free-will.
Isa 33:14 ................ Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Those among us in Judgment on the House of God now, are those appointed to dwell with the devouring fire with everlasting burnings as we are persecuted, assailed, despised and rejected as was Jesus Christ before us. The Elect are as a first fruits of Christ, who suffer trials and tribulations,assault, persecution, doubt, disdain and false accusations as did our Savior before us.
If you look again at what Ray expounds, I believe Ray is in harmony with what the Scriptures mean. 8)
Welcome to the Forum dear brother
Your sister
Arc
Kat:
Hi Mike,
--- Quote ---It still seems clear to me that the LOF is exclusively for the unbelievers.
Scarcely being saved is the same as being "in danger of gehenna fire" ?
It doesn't mean that we go through Gehenna fire/lake of fire ?
--- End quote ---
I think you have the right idea, just need a little help sorting it out. Here is another excerpt from the article that Samson posted from.
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html -------
The Lake of Fire
PART III
JUDGMENT BY FIRE MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD
GOD’S TWO AREAS AND ERAS OF JUDGMENT
Before God brings a final judgment on the entirety of the world, He must first perform another judgment on another group of people. This judgment is going on right now. The world is totally unaware of this judgment, although it has been going on for two thousand years. It is happening behind the scenes. Only a relative few are participating in this judgment by fire, and they are all volunteers!
We know for a fact that there is coming a WORLDWIDE judgment on mankind, for Scripture has stated such:
"Because He hath appointed A DAY, in which He will JUDGE THE WORLD [Greek" inhabited earth] in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31).
Most have at least heard of this judgment even if they have no solid understanding of what it is all about or its primary purpose. We will have a great deal to say about this judgment later. But first we will take a look at another judgment almost universally unknown in the world of Christendom. It is a judgment that involves believers, NOW!
Peter, who was given many keys to the kingdom, introduces this judgment to us:
"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the TIME IS COME that JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD..." (I Pet. 4:16-17).
What do you know about this judgment on the house of God. Do you know anything specific? Well, don’t feel too badly, most people don’t. Apparently theologians and clergymen don’t know too much either, seeing that it is not a popular subject to teach. If they had even a superficial understanding of God’s judgments on the house of God, they wouldn’t interpret the great white throne and the lake of fire as some hideous act of divine eternal terrorism. These two judgments have much in common.
v
Such damnable character flaws of the mind and spirit are going to be burned out of us all! God will either BURN OUT these filthy impurities from our hearts and minds NOW, or He will BURN THEM OUT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, but either way, make no mistake about it, THESE THINGS ARE COMING OUT!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------
1Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God...
So as you can see judgment has begun now on "the house of God" which is the very few - believers - Elect, in this age. But the majority of mankind are not being called out and judged at this time, in this age.
John 12:47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
When Christ came He was the sin offering that was sacrified for the sins of the world "one for all" (Rom 6:10). But for now God is not opening the blind eyes of the world so that they believe and He is not judging them at this time. This age is when He is calling out a very few to prepare to rule with Him in 'the next age,' which will be when the rest of mankind will began their judgment by being cast into the LOF at the great white throne judgment.
Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Marky Mark:
--- Quote ---But regarding the lake of fire Ray says that the LOF is the judgment
and that sinners and saints alike are judged by this same fire.
--- End quote ---
All judgement is the same Spiritual fire,One fire,One judgement.
I believe Ray is speaking of the judgement by fire that all of mankind must go through,that being ,the second death in which all mankind must endure.The elect must go through this second death now,in the house of God,now.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Both the wicked and the elect have to go through a second death by spiritual fire,the elect now in this fleshy life and the wicked latter in the LOF which is the elect judging the rest of the world.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Ecc 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Peace...Mark
Deborah-Leigh:
--- Quote ---It still seems clear to me that the LOF is exclusively for the unbelievers.
--- End quote ---
Hi Mike,
I think I get where you are coming from brother.
I have been perplexed by that statement Ray presents that tie's both first and second death together. I admit, it can be mis-understood and produce many questions. Only recently, I was blessed with the insight to see the fullness of truth in this statement.
Ray expounds that we are all out of Adam. We are all unbelievers at first. Even the Elect are called out of darkness into the light. Ray writes that the elect were once deceived too.
The LOF is Judgment. No one is exempt of Judgment. We are all saved in Judgment.
--- Quote ---Ray quotes Matt 5:22 to show that Gehenna fire applies to believers as well.
--- End quote ---
All the Scriptures apply to us. Not just some we like and others we reject as being applicable to us. Ray expounds that the sum total of God’s word is Truth. So, all Scripture applies to us. The total of God’s Word is Truth. We love the Truth.
--- Quote ---But all it says there is that we are "in danger" of Gehenna fire.
--- End quote ---
We overcome “danger” through the Spirit of God causing in us obedience to His Council, compliance to His Word and gratitude for His Spirit that gives us reverential understanding of the difference between good and evil. We all have to learn through the training of His Spirit, how to understand His Word.
--- Quote ---
The Bible says in 1 Peter 4:18 that "the righteous are scarcely saved".
Scarcely being saved is the same as being "in danger of gehenna fire" ?
It doesn't mean that we go through Gehenna fire/lake of fire ?
That's for the non believers only who are not found in the book of life right?
--- End quote ---
The completion in that understanding is in the Truth that Scarcely saved, being in danger of Gehenna fire, is for the ELECT who are experiencing their one death in this age ahead of the world that will be Judged on their day of Judgment. The elect are in Judgment in their physical life times and as such God is preparing them to be resurrected with the righteous not with the wicked who will face the White Throne Judgment.
You have noted well Mike, that Ray does tie the first AND second death into one Judgment. I believe you are gifted with a critical and analytical mind.
There IS one death, and one Judgment. Ray has made no mistake. The Elect are experiencing their one death ahead of those who shall experience theirs in the LOF. There is no mistake or contradiction.
I hope this shares with you a deeper insight into how God is bringing about His Judgment, firstly, on the Elect in this age, and secondly, on the world, in the Day of Judgment.
Don't be confused by the ORDER in which God brings His Judgment to the Elect first and the wicked after. As God is the same, so too is His Judgment.
Blessings to you in appreciation for your earnest seeking of the truth
Your Sister in Christ
Deborah
arion:
Mike;
Also don't forget that we have to look at the totality of God's word on the subject. If the orthodox teaching on 'hell' and the Lake of fire are correct then we contradict and have to throw away the hundreds of scriptures that point to the salvation of all that have been expounded in the teachings. With Ray's teachings on the lake of fire the scriptures are in perfect harmony and don't contradict themselves. The problem with the orthodox teachings are contradictions, contradictions and still more contradictions. In their mindset there are more scriptures that indicate what they believe about hell so they pile the 'hell' scriptures on one side of the balance and the salvation of all scriptures on the other side of the balance and since they think that the hell side is heavier then that is what they go with.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Those who believe in the traditional hell should really tremble over the above verse as it includes the fearful are going into the lake along with the murderers, ect. Since scripture interprets scripture what is the interpretation of the lof verses? There is only one other scripture that deals with 'fire' and interprets what these lof verses mean.
1Co 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
There is our explanation on the lake of fire and what it does. It is for every man both the believers and unbelievers, none are excluded. And it is extremely important to note that the fire of God burns the man's works and not the man itself. This is in perfect harmony with the rest of the scriptures. Otherwise were left with all sorts of contradictions such as God says that it is an abomination to burn men with real fire.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
With the orthodox teaching on hell and the lake of fire we are left with the fact that God is going to perform an abomination by burning men in real fire. These are things that the believers who are still stuck in the babylon religious system hardly ever think about.
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