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Author Topic: "then cometh the end"  (Read 4799 times)

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lauriellen

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"then cometh the end"
« on: January 03, 2011, 11:43:59 AM »

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN SHALL THE END COME.

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24  THEN COMETH THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

was sitting at breakfast this morning & the thought occurred to me that maybe Mat 24:14 is not talking about the time just before the 2nd coming, but the time before the consumation? don't remember ever reading anything connecting these 2 particular verses in Rays writings....can anyone else point me to any info expounding on these 2 verses? or point out where my thinking is flawed on this point? There has always seemed to be a big gap in time or like something is missing between 1 Cor 15:23 & verse 24.....maybe Matt 24:14 fills in that missing peice of the puzzle?
thanks, lauriellen
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 01:57:14 PM »

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN SHALL THE END COME.

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24  THEN COMETH THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

was sitting at breakfast this morning & the thought occurred to me that maybe Mat 24:14 is not talking about the time just before the 2nd coming, but the time before the consumation? don't remember ever reading anything connecting these 2 particular verses in Rays writings....can anyone else point me to any info expounding on these 2 verses? or point out where my thinking is flawed on this point? There has always seemed to be a big gap in time or like something is missing between 1 Cor 15:23 & verse 24.....maybe Matt 24:14 fills in that missing peice of the puzzle?
thanks, lauriellen


Hello Lauriellen,

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10367.msg88830.html#msg88830):

Dear Nicolette:  Granted that verse does seem confusing until we take a much closer look at it.  Notice
that Jesus said there would be many things happening before He would return:  Signs in the sun and moon (Matt
24:29);  the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (Ver. 30);  angels gathering the elect at the
sound of the trumpet (Ver. 31);  the parable of the fig tree (Ver. 32).  Now then, WHAT generation would not
pass until our Lord Returns?  The generation that Jesus was talking to in Matt. 24?  NO.  "THIS" generation--the
generation that would see,


Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, WHEN YE shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors.

It would be the generation that would "see ALL these things" mentioned in the previous verses, THAT would be

the generation that will not pass until our Lord comes.

The word "this" in this verse is from the following words and notice how it can be translated:

G3778

οὗτος, οὗτοι, αὕτη, αὕται

houtos houtoi hautē hautai

hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee

Including the nominative masculine plural (second form), nominative feminine signular (third form), and the nominate feminine plural, (fourth form). From the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), that is, this or THAT (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

I do not know Greek, but possibly Matt. 24:34 could be translation "THAT generation."  Which generation?  THAT one--the one which sees "ALL THESE THINGS," and no generation has get seen "all of these things" come to pass.

God be with you,

Ray




'Then Cometh the End' is the consummation of the age. The Concordant translates it as such in Matt 24:14 & 1 Cor 15:24. The 2nd Coming begins a new age as does Christ turning over the Kingdom to the Father begins a new age.

Matt 24 states the gospel will be preached to all nations unto the end of the age as a WITNESS unto them. Ray mentions how 'this generation' are those who will see all these signs come to pass (including the gospel being a witness unto all nations -v14). The consummation of this age leads into the Judgment age.

1 Cor 15:24 states that the end of the Judgment age comes AFTER Christ has placed all enemies under His foot [1 Cor 15:25-28]. The 'end' spoken of in verse 24 is only understood after reading Paul's additional statements in verses 25-28.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2011, 03:09:24 PM »


Hi Lauriellen,

To add to what Marques has explained. This passage in matt. 24 is Jesus' reply to the disciples when they ask, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" So the disciples are asking about the end of this present age and Jesus goes through a lot of things that will happen in this age. And then we come to verse 14 and it speaks of "the end of the age."

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

And in the rest of the chapter we can see that it continues to speak about things that come to pass in this age. So I think that what is spoken of in verse 14 would also be Jesus speaking of this age.

Just wanted to add this thought on that passage.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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lauriellen

  • Guest
Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2011, 05:13:51 PM »

thank you for your input. i know from the context that Matt is talking about the end of 'this' age, but was just wondering if there might be more there than meets the eye, and don't really know why that thought came to mind this morning....guess i was just thinking about how many have lived and died never hearing the gospel, and of course most Christians think that this life is their only chance to hear and respond...guess was just pondering if the 'in all the world' of Matt might be referring to a time when ALL will truely be taught the gospel. just a thought.
thanks,
lauriellen
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mharrell08

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2011, 06:07:31 PM »

guess was just pondering if the 'in all the world' of Matt might be referring to a time when ALL will truely be taught the gospel. just a thought.
thanks,
lauriellen


All will be taught the gospel, but the scripture you referred to speaks of the gospel being preached as a witness unto (or against) all nations. The end of this age culminates with the majority of the world in complete turmoil. It is not until the end of the NEXT age that all nations will be submissive unto the Lord.

Matt 24 & 1 Cor 15 are speaking of 2 different ages and their respective conclusions.
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Akira329

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 01:48:27 AM »

Sweet I like this thread! ;D
Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Joe in Arkansas

  • Guest
Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2011, 10:03:43 PM »

I believe that we are missing the point of these prophecies that Christ laid out for us in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.  If you read the Mark and Luke accounts it is clear that these prophecies are for each and every one of us since the time He said them.  Christ's says this in Luke:

Luke 21:35-36 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If Christ's admonition to "watch" is only for the last generation of this age, then why are we told to "pray always" that we may be accounted worthy to escape all these things?  I truly believe that these prophecies are for "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" since the time that Christ said them.  They were fulfilled within the 1st generation from Christ and are still reoccurring within the lives of all other persons in this age since that time.  I believe that Peter, John, Paul, etc. were accounted worthy and escaped (made it through them) these things so as to be able to stand before the son of Man.  And like the apostles, we too must "escape" them in order to stand before Christ.  If we do not "escape" them, then we will face judgment in the final age.  So from that understanding, I do agree that the "end" in Matthew 24 is the end of this age and the "end" in 1Cor is the end in the final age.

Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas
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Marky Mark

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2011, 12:05:12 PM »

Well said Joe in Arkansas...

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 
Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

1Co 10:11  But, these things, by way of type, were happening unto them, and were written with a view to our admonition, unto whom, the ends of the ages, have reached along.

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Luk 17:20 Now, being inquired of by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God is coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with scrutiny."
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they be declaring 'Lo! here!' or 'Lo! there!' for lo! the kingdom of God is inside of you.

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons! Amen!

Isa 28:9 Whom will He direct in knowledge? And to whom will He explain a report? Those weaned from milk. Those pulled away from breasts.
Isa 28:10 For instruction is added to instruction, instruction to instruction, expectation to expectation, expectation to expectation, a bit there, a bit there."
Isa 28:11 For with deridings of lip, and in another tongue He will speak to this people,
Isa 28:12 when He says to them:"This is the resting place. Give rest to the faint. And this is the respite.Yet they are not willing to hearken,
Isa 28:13 when the word of Yahweh Elohim comes to them

Psa 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."

Psa 139:17 How precious are Your thoughts to me, O El, How plentiful are their sums:"




Rev 2:29  He who has ears, let him give ear to what the Spirit says to the churches.





Peace...Mark
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Joe in Arkansas

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 12:47:08 PM »

Well said Joe in Arkansas...

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 
Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

1Co 10:11  But, these things, by way of type, were happening unto them, and were written with a view to our admonition, unto whom, the ends of the ages, have reached along.

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Luk 17:20 Now, being inquired of by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God is coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with scrutiny."
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they be declaring 'Lo! here!' or 'Lo! there!' for lo! the kingdom of God is inside of you.

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons! Amen!

Isa 28:9 Whom will He direct in knowledge? And to whom will He explain a report? Those weaned from milk. Those pulled away from breasts.
Isa 28:10 For instruction is added to instruction, instruction to instruction, expectation to expectation, expectation to expectation, a bit there, a bit there."
Isa 28:11 For with deridings of lip, and in another tongue He will speak to this people,
Isa 28:12 when He says to them:"This is the resting place. Give rest to the faint. And this is the respite.Yet they are not willing to hearken,
Isa 28:13 when the word of Yahweh Elohim comes to them

Psa 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."

Psa 139:17 How precious are Your thoughts to me, O El, How plentiful are their sums:"




Rev 2:29  He who has ears, let him give ear to what the Spirit says to the churches.





Peace...Mark

Mark,
Thank you for those scriptures you posted.  There are so few in this world who understands and believes them.  I am going to print them out for future reference.
Thanks,
Joe
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mharrell08

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2011, 04:08:59 PM »

I truly believe that these prophecies are for "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" since the time that Christ said them.  They were fulfilled within the 1st generation from Christ and are still reoccurring within the lives of all other persons in this age since that time.


Joe, take a look at this email reply from Ray, if you will:

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10367.msg88830.html#msg88830):

Dear Nicolette:  Granted that verse does seem confusing until we take a much closer look at it.  Notice
that Jesus said there would be many things happening before He would return:  Signs in the sun and moon (Matt
24:29);  the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (Ver. 30);  angels gathering the elect at the
sound of the trumpet (Ver. 31);  the parable of the fig tree (Ver. 32).
  Now then, WHAT generation would not
pass until our Lord Returns?  The generation that Jesus was talking to in Matt. 24?  NO.  "THIS" generation--the
generation that would see,

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, WHEN YE shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors.

It would be the generation that would "see ALL these things" mentioned in the previous verses, THAT would be

the generation that will not pass until our Lord comes.


The word "this" in this verse is from the following words and notice how it can be translated:

G3778

οὗτος, οὗτοι, αὕτη, αὕται

houtos houtoi hautē hautai

hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee

Including the nominative masculine plural (second form), nominative feminine signular (third form), and the nominate feminine plural, (fourth form). From the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), that is, this or THAT (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

I do not know Greek, but possibly Matt. 24:34 could be translation "THAT generation."  Which generation?  THAT one--the one which sees "ALL THESE THINGS," and no generation has get seen "all of these things" come to pass.

God be with you,

Ray



These signs have assuredly not all come to pass, particularly God's Elect being gathered at the sound of the trumpet. Paul talked about this trumpet being a call for the dead in Christ to awaken [1 Cor 15:52] and the Lord descending from the heavens [1 Thess 4:16]. Only the last generation will 'see these things'.

Further down in the same passage, Jesus tells us we are to watch because we do not know when He is coming:

Matt 24:42-44  Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


Marques
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Joe in Arkansas

  • Guest
Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2011, 06:59:11 PM »

I truly believe that these prophecies are for "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" since the time that Christ said them.  They were fulfilled within the 1st generation from Christ and are still reoccurring within the lives of all other persons in this age since that time.


Joe, take a look at this email reply from Ray, if you will:

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10367.msg88830.html#msg88830):

Dear Nicolette:  Granted that verse does seem confusing until we take a much closer look at it.  Notice
that Jesus said there would be many things happening before He would return:  Signs in the sun and moon (Matt
24:29);  the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (Ver. 30);  angels gathering the elect at the
sound of the trumpet (Ver. 31);  the parable of the fig tree (Ver. 32).
  Now then, WHAT generation would not
pass until our Lord Returns?  The generation that Jesus was talking to in Matt. 24?  NO.  "THIS" generation--the
generation that would see,

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, WHEN YE shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors.

It would be the generation that would "see ALL these things" mentioned in the previous verses, THAT would be

the generation that will not pass until our Lord comes.


The word "this" in this verse is from the following words and notice how it can be translated:

G3778

οὗτος, οὗτοι, αὕτη, αὕται

houtos houtoi hautē hautai

hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee

Including the nominative masculine plural (second form), nominative feminine signular (third form), and the nominate feminine plural, (fourth form). From the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), that is, this or THAT (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

I do not know Greek, but possibly Matt. 24:34 could be translation "THAT generation."  Which generation?  THAT one--the one which sees "ALL THESE THINGS," and no generation has get seen "all of these things" come to pass.

God be with you,

Ray



These signs have assuredly not all come to pass, particularly God's Elect being gathered at the sound of the trumpet. Paul talked about this trumpet being a call for the dead in Christ to awaken [1 Cor 15:52] and the Lord descending from the heavens [1 Thess 4:16]. Only the last generation will 'see these things'.

Further down in the same passage, Jesus tells us we are to watch because we do not know when He is coming:

Matt 24:42-44  Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


Marques

Dear Marques,
Thank you for your comments.  In this particular instance, I have to say that I disagree with Ray.  In fact, Ray's understanding of these prophecies in Matthew 24 seem to conflict with at least one of his teachings in the Lake of Fire series concerning the "man of sin".  I believe he is absolutely correct with his teachings concerning the "man of sin" in the Lake of Fire series, but here in Matthew 24 he seems to change his understanding. 

But before I explain, I want to say that Ray's understanding of scripture overall is mostly in agreement with what I believe is really being taught in Matthew 24.  I have a high amount of respect and appreciation for Ray's teachings and believe that he is the best teacher of God's Word that I have ever known.  In fact, he is responsible for most of what I have come to understand as Truth.  I am most grateful to him.

With that said though, his understanding of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 seems to be limited to an "outward" understanding.  I believe that those prophecies in Matthew 24 are primarily for His Elect to understand and I believe that they personally experience them from "within".   Ray teaches this "within" understanding when he teaches on the "man of sin" in his Lake of Fire series Part 14 "The Beast Within".  But here in Matthew 24 he seems to not connect these verses with his "man of sin" understanding from 2Thes 2:3:

Matt 24:15-22 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

2Thes 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


It is my belief that both the teachings in Matt 24: 15-22 and 2Thess 2:3-4 are speaking of essentially the same thing.  The "abomination of desolation" that stands in the holy place is when we see the "man of sin" standing within God's temple.  Remember, we are now the temple of God.  Ray's teaching on the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is very good and should match his teaching on Matthew 24:15-22.  But apparently in Matthew 24, he sees it as having an "outward" fulfillment instead of an "inward" and personal fulfillment as he teaches on the "man of sin" in the LOF series Part 14.  If I am wrong on his teaching of Matthew 24:15-22, please correct me.  Since Matt 24:15-22 is to be understood as personal & "within" ourselves (remember the kingdom of Heaven is within us) then the rest of Christ's teachings in this section should also be understood as "within".  Doesn't that make sense?

In Matthew 24:15-22, I believe it is spiritually saying that when we see our "man of sin" standing in God's temple, we are to flee out of the Harlot church into the mountains because it's destruction is near.  It goes to great lengths to let us know to leave immediately because the time for it's destruction is short.  In other words, we literally don't want to be caught "dead" in the Harlot church or to remain carnal as it has kept us.  This fleeing into the mountains from the Harlot church is typed for us by Lot and his wife fleeing from Sodom and again in Rev 18:4 where it commands us to "come out of her my people".   In both accounts, the city is shortly destroyed.  For us spiritually, it is destroyed when we can see the Harlot for who she is and for what she has made us become ( a "man of sin" standing in the Holy Place).  God's Elect are commanded to come out of her completely with no looking back (like Lot's wife did).  We must keep pressing forward to the goal of the high calling of Jesus Christ.  In essence it is saying that we must keep maturing spiritually and must not turn back to our carnality (we prefer the Old Wine).  The Elect's days are shortened in the Harlot church (wilderness or bottomless pit), otherwise the Elect too would remain deceived & carnal and would physically die in her.  This again is typed for us by the nation of Israel who wandered in the desert for forty years.  Only Joshua and Caleb "escape" the wilderness.  God's Elect will "escape" the Harlot church and will see the "man of sin" that they have become while in her.  The Elect flee to the mountains once they see earthly Jerusalem for the Harlot she is.  But in Matt 24, it says woe to them who are with child and to them that give suck in those days.  Why?  Because they are the ones who are still carnal & blind and cannot see that they need to come out of her before her destruction.  They only have until their physical deaths to come out (the time is short).  After that time, the resurrection of the unjust will be what they experience next.  But for the Elect's sake, Christ's comes to them a second time and heals their spiritual blindness so that they can see to come out of the Harlot.  Mercifully, their days are shortened in the Harlot, otherwise they too would not survive (escape). 

Since the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-22 is personally for each of us and takes place "within" us, then it makes sense that all of Matthew 24 is personal and "within" us also.  It may be true that there is also an "outward" fulfillment of these events that will be seen in the world but for the Elect, those events are for them to personally experience during their lifetimes.  If they are truly one of the chosen, then they will escape them and stand before the Son of God.  The time is at hand for all men from the time of Christ and not for some appointed time in the future that is still not here after nearly 2000 years.

I know Ray's understanding of the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is personal and "within".  Why he doesn't connect Matt 24:15-22 as being related to it, I don't know. 

Anyway, that is what I am seeing with Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.  If I have misstated Ray's position on this chapter, I am sorry and it was done in ignorance. 

Joe in Arkansas (Jody Edwards)










 

 
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2011, 10:50:50 PM »

With that said though, his understanding of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 seems to be limited to an "outward" understanding.  I believe that those prophecies in Matthew 24 are primarily for His Elect to understand and I believe that they personally experience them from "within".  Ray teaches this "within" understanding when he teaches on the "man of sin" in his Lake of Fire series Part 14 "The Beast Within".  But here in Matthew 24 he seems to not connect these verses with his "man of sin" understanding from 2Thes 2:3:

In the email reply, Ray does not say anything about 'outward' and 'inward' or literally and figuratively. Ray quotes the scriptures and CHRIST says 'that generation' that sees ALL these things. 'All these things' make up the entire passage of Matthew 24.

'MANY come in my name to deceive many' (v5), 'they will deliver you to tribulation and you will be hated of ALL MEN' (v9), 'False Christs arising to deceive if possible the Elect' (v24), 'great sound of a trumpet and God's Elect being gathered' (v31), etc. are not figurative things that happen 'inward' in each individual. The man of sin 'within' is only one aspect of the prophecy that Christ gives.

The apostles only asked one thing: "what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (v3). Christ then explains, in parables, the end of the age ('then the end will come' [v14]). But Christ does not stop the prophecy at verse 14. He further elaborates beginning at verse 15:

Matt 24:15  Therefore (then, accordingly, consequently, etc.) when you see...

He gives further signs and symbols that 'consequently' will bring forth the end of the age.


Matt 24:15-22 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

2Thes 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It is my belief that both the teachings in Matt 24: 15-22 and 2Thess 2:3-4 are speaking of essentially the same thing.  The "abomination of desolation" that stands in the holy place is when we see the "man of sin" standing within God's temple.  Remember, we are now the temple of God.  Ray's teaching on the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is very good and should match his teaching on Matthew 24:15-22.  But apparently in Matthew 24, he sees it as having an "outward" fulfillment instead of an "inward" and personal fulfillment as he teaches on the "man of sin" in the LOF series Part 14.  If I am wrong on his teaching of Matthew 24:15-22, please correct me.  Since Matt 24:15-22 is to be understood as personal & "within" ourselves (remember the kingdom of Heaven is within us) then the rest of Christ's teachings in this section should also be understood as "within".  Doesn't that make sense?

Again, Matt 24 was not a response to the Kingdom of Heaven, but what is the end of the age/Coming of our Lord. Jesus did not begin and end His prophecy between verses 15-22. There are a lot of prophecies in this chapter that are not fulfilled 'within'. A few are posted above.

In Matthew 24:15-22, I believe it is spiritually saying that when we see our "man of sin" standing in God's temple, we are to flee out of the Harlot church into the mountains because it's destruction is near.  It goes to great lengths to let us know to leave immediately because the time for it's destruction is short.  In other words, we literally don't want to be caught "dead" in the Harlot church or to remain carnal as it has kept us.  This fleeing into the mountains from the Harlot church is typed for us by Lot and his wife fleeing from Sodom and again in Rev 18:4 where it commands us to "come out of her my people".   In both accounts, the city is shortly destroyed.  For us spiritually, it is destroyed when we can see the Harlot for who she is and for what she has made us become ( a "man of sin" standing in the Holy Place).  God's Elect are commanded to come out of her completely with no looking back (like Lot's wife did).  We must keep pressing forward to the goal of the high calling of Jesus Christ.  In essence it is saying that we must keep maturing spiritually and must not turn back to our carnality (we prefer the Old Wine).  The Elect's days are shortened in the Harlot church (wilderness or bottomless pit), otherwise the Elect too would remain deceived & carnal and would physically die in her.  This again is typed for us by the nation of Israel who wandered in the desert for forty years.  Only Joshua and Caleb "escape" the wilderness.  God's Elect will "escape" the Harlot church and will see the "man of sin" that they have become while in her.  The Elect flee to the mountains once they see earthly Jerusalem for the Harlot she is.  But in Matt 24, it says woe to them who are with child and to them that give suck in those days.  Why?  Because they are the ones who are still carnal & blind and cannot see that they need to come out of her before her destruction.  They only have until their physical deaths to come out (the time is short).  After that time, the resurrection of the unjust will be what they experience next.  But for the Elect's sake, Christ's comes to them a second time and heals their spiritual blindness so that they can see to come out of the Harlot.  Mercifully, their days are shortened in the Harlot, otherwise they too would not survive (escape).

I know you are new to the forum Joe, but let's shy away from personal interpretation of prophecy. It always leads debate within our no teaching rule. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just let's keep these types of statements off the forum. Hope no offense is taken.

Since the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-22 is personally for each of us and takes place "within" us, then it makes sense that all of Matthew 24 is personal and "within" us also. It may be true that there is also an "outward" fulfillment of these events that will be seen in the world but for the Elect, those events are for them to personally experience during their lifetimes.  If they are truly one of the chosen, then they will escape them and stand before the Son of God.

 The time is at hand for all men from the time of Christ and not for some appointed time in the future that is still not here after nearly 2000 years.

I know Ray's understanding of the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is personal and "within".  Why he doesn't connect Matt 24:15-22 as being related to it, I don't know.  

Anyway, that is what I am seeing with Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.  If I have misstated Ray's position on this chapter, I am sorry and it was done in ignorance.


No, it doesn't make sense but is an assumption that many make. I can tell you feel very strongly about your interpretation of Matt 24:15-22, but that passage is only one aspect of a very long prophecy that the Lord gives of the end of the age/His Return.

As I said before, Christ tells us to 'watch and pray' because we do not know the hour of His return, not because all these signs are fulfilled in each of His Elect. The Elect CAN'T fulfill all of these signs in Matt 24 'inwardly' or even outwardly, literally or even figuratively.


Hope this helps,

Marques
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 10:05:30 AM by mharrell08 »
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Joe in Arkansas

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2011, 12:34:57 AM »

With that said though, his understanding of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 seems to be limited to an "outward" understanding.  I believe that those prophecies in Matthew 24 are primarily for His Elect to understand and I believe that they personally experience them from "within".   Ray teaches this "within" understanding when he teaches on the "man of sin" in his Lake of Fire series Part 14 "The Beast Within".  But here in Matthew 24 he seems to not connect these verses with his "man of sin" understanding from 2Thes 2:3:

In the email reply, Ray does not say anything about 'outward' and 'inward' or literally and figuratively. Ray quotes the scriptures and CHRIST says 'that generation' that sees ALL these things. 'All these things' make up the entire passage of Matthew 24.

'MANY come in my name to deceive many' (v5), 'they will deliver you to tribulation and you will be hated of ALL MEN' (v9), 'False Christs arising to deceive if possible the Elect' (v24), 'great sound of a trumpet and God's Elect being gathered' (v31), etc. are not figurative things that happen 'inward' in each individual. The man of sin 'within' is only one aspect of the prophecy that Christ gives.

Dear Marques

The apostles only asked one thing: "what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (v3). Christ then explains, in parables, the end of the age ('then the end will come' [v14]). But Christ does not stop the prophecy at verse 14. He further elaborates beginning at verse 15:

Matt 24:15  Therefore (then, accordingly, consequently, etc.) when you see...

He gives further signs and symbols that 'consequently' will bring forth the end of the age.


Matt 24:15-22 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

2Thes 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It is my belief that both the teachings in Matt 24: 15-22 and 2Thess 2:3-4 are speaking of essentially the same thing.  The "abomination of desolation" that stands in the holy place is when we see the "man of sin" standing within God's temple.  Remember, we are now the temple of God.  Ray's teaching on the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is very good and should match his teaching on Matthew 24:15-22.  But apparently in Matthew 24, he sees it as having an "outward" fulfillment instead of an "inward" and personal fulfillment as he teaches on the "man of sin" in the LOF series Part 14.  If I am wrong on his teaching of Matthew 24:15-22, please correct me.  Since Matt 24:15-22 is to be understood as personal & "within" ourselves (remember the kingdom of Heaven is within us) then the rest of Christ's teachings in this section should also be understood as "within".  Doesn't that make sense?

Again, Matt 24 was not a response to the Kingdom of Heaven, but what is the end of the age/Coming of our Lord. Jesus did not begin and end His prophecy between verses 15-22. There are a lot of prophecies in this chapter that are not fulfilled 'within'. A few are posted above.

In Matthew 24:15-22, I believe it is spiritually saying that when we see our "man of sin" standing in God's temple, we are to flee out of the Harlot church into the mountains because it's destruction is near.  It goes to great lengths to let us know to leave immediately because the time for it's destruction is short.  In other words, we literally don't want to be caught "dead" in the Harlot church or to remain carnal as it has kept us.  This fleeing into the mountains from the Harlot church is typed for us by Lot and his wife fleeing from Sodom and again in Rev 18:4 where it commands us to "come out of her my people".   In both accounts, the city is shortly destroyed.  For us spiritually, it is destroyed when we can see the Harlot for who she is and for what she has made us become ( a "man of sin" standing in the Holy Place).  God's Elect are commanded to come out of her completely with no looking back (like Lot's wife did).  We must keep pressing forward to the goal of the high calling of Jesus Christ.  In essence it is saying that we must keep maturing spiritually and must not turn back to our carnality (we prefer the Old Wine).  The Elect's days are shortened in the Harlot church (wilderness or bottomless pit), otherwise the Elect too would remain deceived & carnal and would physically die in her.  This again is typed for us by the nation of Israel who wandered in the desert for forty years.  Only Joshua and Caleb "escape" the wilderness.  God's Elect will "escape" the Harlot church and will see the "man of sin" that they have become while in her.  The Elect flee to the mountains once they see earthly Jerusalem for the Harlot she is.  But in Matt 24, it says woe to them who are with child and to them that give suck in those days.  Why?  Because they are the ones who are still carnal & blind and cannot see that they need to come out of her before her destruction.  They only have until their physical deaths to come out (the time is short).  After that time, the resurrection of the unjust will be what they experience next.  But for the Elect's sake, Christ's comes to them a second time and heals their spiritual blindness so that they can see to come out of the Harlot.  Mercifully, their days are shortened in the Harlot, otherwise they too would not survive (escape).

I know you are new to the forum Joe, but let's shy away from personal interpretation of prophecy. It always leads debate within our no teaching rule. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just let's keep these types of statements off the forum. Hope no offense is taken.

Since the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-22 is personally for each of us and takes place "within" us, then it makes sense that all of Matthew 24 is personal and "within" us also. It may be true that there is also an "outward" fulfillment of these events that will be seen in the world but for the Elect, those events are for them to personally experience during their lifetimes.  If they are truly one of the chosen, then they will escape them and stand before the Son of God.

 The time is at hand for all men from the time of Christ and not for some appointed time in the future that is still not here after nearly 2000 years.

I know Ray's understanding of the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is personal and "within".  Why he doesn't connect Matt 24:15-22 as being related to it, I don't know. 

Anyway, that is what I am seeing with Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.  If I have misstated Ray's position on this chapter, I am sorry and it was done in ignorance.


No, it doesn't make sense but is an assumption that many make. I can tell you feel very strongly about your interpretation of Matt 24:15-22, but that passage is only one aspect of a very long prophecy that the Lord gives of the end of the age/His Return.

As I said before, Christ tells us to 'watch and pray' because we do not know the hour of His return, not because all these signs are fulfilled in each of His Elect. The Elect CAN'T even fulfill all of these signs in Matt 24 'inwardly' or even outwardly, literally or even figuratively.


Hope this helps,

Marques

Dear Marques,
Thank you for your comments.  I understand what you are saying but I cannot agree that the end of the age is solely for the last generation before Christ's visible return.  I believe that all the prophecies of Matt 24 can and should be understood as personal and within.  Scripture says that for the "Elect", the ends of the ages come to us in our lifetimes, from those who lived in the 1st century, all the way to the Elect living today. 

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

In the future, I will not post if what I am posting is in disagreement with Ray's teaching.  This was one of those rare cases where Ray and I disagree.  However, I thought it to be appropriate to bring it up since it was the subject of this thread - "then cometh the end" and when that occurs. 

Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas

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cjwood

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2011, 06:09:04 AM »

jody/joe in arkansas, i believe you should send an email to ray regarding your strong feeling on this one.  ray has always encouraged anyone to spot what they believe are inconsistencies, or contradictions, etc. that he has written.  he only asks that the person offer at least 2 scriptures to back up what they believe.  this would be a help to you, and also to the forum, if you feel led to share any response from ray with us.

in Christ,
claudia
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2011, 10:10:05 AM »

Hi Joe in Arkansas,

It is good to meet you!

Rays teachings, I believe,  prepare the way for the unveiling of Christ, not as a physical man of mortal flesh and blood, but  within us, for the Kingdom of God is within and among us.

A pure heart cannot, does not, believe in hell, free will, tithe or minority salvation.

Mat 5:8  Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

The Kingdom doesn’t come with outward signs.
 
Ray also teaches that the burning of the trees has to happen within us, that was symbolized in Revelations as recorded by John who saw Christ within himself, not as an outward  Armageddon physically happening on the Island of Patmos! :D

We know these things to be spiritual.   There is no arguement. Seek and you shall find and seek first the Kingdom of God.  :)

Blessings
Arc
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Joe in Arkansas

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2011, 02:34:45 PM »

jody/joe in arkansas, i believe you should send an email to ray regarding your strong feeling on this one.  ray has always encouraged anyone to spot what they believe are inconsistencies, or contradictions, etc. that he has written.  he only asks that the person offer at least 2 scriptures to back up what they believe.  this would be a help to you, and also to the forum, if you feel led to share any response from ray with us.

in Christ,
claudia

Hi Claudia,
I believe I remember you from the 2008 Nashville conference.  It's good to hear from you.  Yes, I emailed Ray this past week about the timing of the 1st resurrection that is contained within the Matthew 24 section of scripture.  He stills maintains that Matthew 24 will only be completely fulfilled for the last generation before Christ's visible return to the world.  He maintains that belief because the resurrection of the Elect in verses 30 & 31 is included within the generation that will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.  I asked him to look that the resurrection of the Elect being a reoccurring event upon the death of the Elect (is, was and will be, everyman in his own order).  For me, there seems to be quite a bit of supporting scripture for this understanding (including Matt 24).  Up until a month ago, I believed as Ray that the resurrection will be a one time event at the end of this present age.  At this time, I don't see that scripture supports that understanding anymore.  Ray never responded to my last email to him on the subject.  I told him not to if he still thought I was mistaken.  I know Ray has plenty on his plate without having to debate me on this side issue.  Whether the resurrection happens upon the Elect's death or at the end of the present age does not change anything for our spiritual development or our understanding of Christ.  It certainly is good to know God's plan for when we will be raised but not knowing should not have any effect on "if" we will be raised.

If anyone wants to explore my understanding of Matthew 24 and the timing of the resurrection, I would be happy to do so outside the forum via personal emails.  Please private message me.

Sincerely,
Jody Edwards

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Joe in Arkansas

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2011, 02:38:46 PM »

Hi Joe in Arkansas,

It is good to meet you!

Rays teachings, I believe,  prepare the way for the unveiling of Christ, not as a physical man of mortal flesh and blood, but  within us, for the Kingdom of God is within and among us.

A pure heart cannot, does not, believe in hell, free will, tithe or minority salvation.

Mat 5:8  Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

The Kingdom doesn’t come with outward signs.
 
Ray also teaches that the burning of the trees has to happen within us, that was symbolized in Revelations as recorded by John who saw Christ within himself, not as an outward  Armageddon physically happening on the Island of Patmos! :D

We know these things to be spiritual.   There is no arguement. Seek and you shall find and seek first the Kingdom of God.  :)

Blessings
Arc


Dear Arc,
I certainly agree with what you stated above and I know that Ray does too. 

You said:
The Kingdom doesn’t come with outward signs.

Of course, that is my contention on Matthew 24 and why I believe that it is all personal and "within" for each person from the time of Christ.
Sincerely,
Jody
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Craig

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Re: "then cometh the end"
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2011, 03:32:20 PM »

This a been a good thread and an example of how we can put forth our opinion but not debate.  I'm locking it now because not much more can be said.  There is nothing wrong with the thread or posts or exchanges.  We have been given the tools to study and learn and even though our thoughts may not agree with others we can rest firm in our belief all is of God and someday the answers will be made known. 

Thank you all for your good will..

Craig
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