Another Jesus

[longhorn]

Interesting in Matthew Chapter 3 we find John the Baptisit preaching the coming of the Messiah, even baptizing Christ himself, yet later when John is in prison and hears of the miracles and preaching of Jesus, John sends 2 of his disciples asking Jesus, Are you the coming One, or do we look for another.  I guess we all at first " Look For " and serve Another Jesus.   Another Jesus who came to save the world, but will fail to do so.  Another Jesus that commands 10 % of our income.  Another Jesus who is Love and Tells us to love our enemies, except those of another faith.  Another Jesus who teaches we are created immortal.  I know I have served that other Jesus before.  Don't know if Ray has taught on this or not.

Longhorn

[Kat]

Hi Longhorn,

I do not believe that John at the time of the baptism knew that Jesus was the Messiah. This just goes to show that Jesus did not boast that He was the Messiah and certainly not to His family, not even John. I don't think anybody realized that Christ was the Messiah until after His Resurrection. They Had not been converted until the Day of Pentecost and did not understand. I do believe that Jesus taught John many things, that is why John questioned baptizing Jesus, John knew that Jesus at the very least was a prophet. But the account of John sending his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the prophesied Messiah to come means John did not know. So when hearing the account that Jesus had just raised the dead boy back to life, this must have clenched it for John, so then he sent his disciples to ask Jesus point blank.

Luke 7:22  Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.
v. 23  "And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."

John got His answer. So John knew before his death that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah to come.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[grapehound]

John had already identified Jesus as " The Lamb that takes away the sin of the world" to the crowd. I wonder why he suddenly doubted this, by sending his own followers to inquire?
Good thread Longhorn.

[Kat]

Hmm, that is true Grapehound. Maybe John wanted Jesus to be confirmed to his (John's) disciples and that's why he sent them

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[longhorn]

Kat  I think John Chapter 1 verses 23 through 34 ( would type them out, but I type like I have Horse hooves for hands), explain that John knew exacltly who Jesus was, especially verses 34 - 36.  Not sure how much time had passed between his first encounter with Christ and his imprisonment.  Mabey, it had been months and John had been getting false reports of imposters.  I'll leave that to the smarter folks.

Longhorn

[Ninny]

You know...I think John just was having a lonely moment...in that he knew who Jesus was and yet just needing the comfort of hearing it again...When we are under stress and duress our faith seems very dim, it has happened to me! I understand what you mean, Longhorn..that other Jesus..the one people want him to be...BUT He is who He is! too many times we want to put God into a box that conforms to our way of thinking and Jesus can go into that box, too! Do you remember when Musicman used to drink the koolaid and talk to god? well...that same god with the little g..produced jesus with a little j...he's the god who isn't big enough to love his enemies and the jesus who isn't God enough to save all his children!

I'm glad we don't serve that other jesus, Longhorn! We've all served him!! God is good and HE is the BIG G God and our Jesus is the BIG J Jesus!!!  His yoke is easy and His burden is light!! Matt. 11:30
Kathy

[Kat]

Hi Longhorn,

Yeah I can see that now. When you consider that John had seen the Spirit of God descending on Jesus at His baptism and heard a voice from heaven declaring Him the Son of God (Matt 3:16-17) and had so often pointed Jesus out to others, that He was the Lamb of God (John 1:29,36), and bridegroom of His church (John 3:29).  I think without a doubt John knew who Jesus was.
Maybe John was anticipating his own death, so he sent his disciples to Christ so that they would have assurance that Christ was the Messiah.
I think Jesus understood why John sent his disciples to Him too.  
Notice what they asked Jesus, seems to be a little bit of a question in their minds.

Luke 7:20  When the men had come to Him, they said, "John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, "Are You the Coming One, or do WE look for another?"'
v. 21  And that very hour He cured many of infirmities, afflictions, and evil spirits; and to many blind He gave sight.
v. 22  Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.
v. 23  And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."

I think John wanted to rest assured that after his own death, his disciples would follow Jesus.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

I believe this question from John the Baptist stemmed from the anticipation/expectation that the disciples had, that He would free the Jews from the bondage of the Romans and establish an earthly kingdom as the conquering Messiah. Their desire for this blinded them to the prophecy of Isaiah (53) in regard to "the Man of sorrows."

As Kathy mentioned John was very likely despondent about being in prison and very well could have begun to have doubts about Jesus being The Messiah because of his own predicament, if the all powerful Messiah was among them, John himself proclaimed him as such then why (he must of thought) am I rotting away here in prison?

Remember John is not among the elect.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Also as Ray has shown no one had been converted during the ministry of Jesus, even Peter (and I am sure the rest as well) did not understand what the mission of Jesus was when He walked this earth as a man...


Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter didn't get it, the crowds who shouted "Hosanna to Highest" who also shouted "crucify Him" a short time later didn't get it, but surprisingly the demons who Jesus cast into the swine did! They apparently knew it was not yet the time for the Messiah to claim His throne and display His power and authority on earth.

Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Mat 8:30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

Peace,

Joe

[CEO]

Dear Joe

To me you never left.  I enjoy you posting, especially when I agree.  John the Baptist began having doubts, the same reason we all do, foundational assumptions being wrong.

Thank God for Ray Smith exposing us to truth we would never experience in this life without him!

Askseeknock

Charles O

[Joel]

God does work in mysterious ways.
Jesus said in Luke 10:21-24
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father: and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them: and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
John said this in John 3:25-36
Then there arose a question between John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou bare witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
He that receiveth his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not on the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John seems to be right on at this time.

Joel

[LiberatedEagle]

Greetings Forum,

It's been awhile since you all heard from me, but glory be to God I am experiencing what Ray expounded on in regards to the Father drawing/dragging us to Him. No matter how long it takes, how far I run, I cannot escape the truth and the obligation that comes along with it.

In regards to John sending his disciples to question Jesus about his identity, I am reminded of the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:16-23

Matthew 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

vs17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]

vs18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

vs19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

vs 20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

I believe the above verses 20-21 pertains to John the Baptist. As Kathy and hillsbororiver stated: John did not inhertit the Kingdom of Heaven. Because of the persecution and imprisonment he became offended, which is why I believe Jesus ended by saying in Luke 7:23 "Blessed is the man who is not offended because of me."

[cjwood]

( would type them out, but I type like I have Horse hooves for hands),

the visual of this statement longhorn, made me laugh so hard i actually spit a little. 

just wanted to emphasize that, even in deep and meaningful conversations on this beloved forum, our longhorn has been blessed with the ability to cause deep laughter within.  that too is healing.  thank you brother.

back to the thread topic.
claudia

[margo]

Hi Joel,
In John 3:29, "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled".  Here is John saying that he is the friend of the bridegroom and knowing that his joy is fulfilled, and knows he is not the bride but a friend? 

Blessings, Margo

[hillsbororiver]

Dear Joe

To me you never left.  I enjoy you posting, especially when I agree. 

Thanks Charles

John the Baptist began having doubts, the same reason we all do, foundational assumptions being wrong.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, His ways are not our ways (of thinking/perceiving), we are being formed into His image, no one save Jesus has reached this goal yet.

Thank God for Ray Smith exposing us to truth we would never experience in this life without him!

The Spirit of God no doubt has used Ray as a conduit to open many eyes on how to discern the scriptures.

Peace,

Joe