> Off Topic Discussions
great big orphanage
DougE6:
Hi Gary
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
I know that may sound afar off and the like, but that is why we need faith. When you have faith, it doesn't seem so far off, though. It seems it is present right now, inside.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
God rewards the diligent seeker with the faith to see wisdom in pain and suffering and the bad things, then gives the hope that overcomes the trials, and the world; and overcomes the all too human perspective that you have aptly described.
We all vacillate between extremes, both the human earthly perspective, and the Godly hope filled perspective. But strive to see the Godly perspective; hope it grows way more real to you than the earthly, human.
And when you think that God has any explaining to do? Look at the cross. God is not asking anyone of us to feel anymore pain or hardship than Jesus did. He even though has a great and glorious outcome in mind for us all, still condescended to experience all of human misery, so no one can ever say He was unfair in making us suffer things that he himself would not. He did experience and suffer in like manner to anything that He is requiring us to go through. And we can overcome too., as Jesus did.
Kat:
Hi lostandfound,
Yeah good analogy, I like how analogies help you understand something. Yes God is 'hidden,' it is necessary that the world not know the true God or how could they worship the god of this world. So God is hidden from the world at this time. But He actually is in all things all the time and very much aware of all things.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
He is evident in everything around us, how can anybody just say things just happened into being, that goes against all logic.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Hi Gary,
It is true we are living in a very dark world at this time. Yeah right now things look like a mess, but we can see an analogy of this in a tremendous number of physical things we do. Take a cake, when you throw all the ingredients in a bowl, yeah it does look like a mess, but that is just the start of the process of making a beautiful delicious cake. Some statures start out as just a big ole piece of rock, before they are carved skillfully into a beautiful piece of art. When watching a house being built, the whole thing looks like a mess for quite some time before they start getting close to finishing it and you can see what a grand building it will be. Same with the world, we are in the beginning of the process, but how else are you going to get the end product without going through all the steps first?
So we are in the beginning stage, the very start of the process of making us into the image of God. We don't like being in all this mess, we don't like participating in the evil we do and we don't like suffering because of it either. I believe all we are going through now in this world is valuable, actually priceless learning experiences. Sure we could just be told how bad evil is and that we should not get involved with it, but I really don't think that would work good enough with most if not every single one. You don't easily forget something you experience, so the best way to gain the knowledge of evil is to go through it ourselves and experiencing it.
Now I know it seems this evil and suffering is too much, there just must be too much of it in the world. Well I actually believe God designed it exactly to the degree that is best for us. He could have designed it where we suffer more, if He wanted... or less. But in His wisdom I believe He made it just right, enough so it sticks with you and you won't forget about it. But I certainly don't believe it is more than is absolutely necessary.
We have been brought into existence and this physical phase is a starting point. We are in the hands of a perfect loving Father, I have no doubt that in the age to come that some how God will provide justice for all.
Not trying to beat you over the head with this, just thought maybe something could ring true to you.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
GaryK:
Thank you Doug and Kat. Good thoughts from you both and I appreciate them. Doug, the faith you speak of isn’t something I can generate by ‘good thoughts’, re-reading scripture or Ray’s writings repeatedly. But you already know that. I don’t want ‘my’ faith. I had that. It had faulty wiring. For what micro amount of knowledge I may have (and it is that small), I’d give it up for a nano-fraction of HIS faith. (you numbers boys don’t be checking my math on that one ;) )
The analogies, Kat, are good and I understand what you’re saying, and you understand from where I’m coming. They make good sense. But, you usually do.
The facts are that people are different. Some souls are happy….some souls are dark, but the world stays the same, bad to worse. I haven’t always had this antagonistic point of view. (I used to be a real sweetheart and kill these enemies quickly without prolonging with life-pondering quagmires.)
I like to think god moves us each through life with a myriad of changing views of the prism we see this world, depending on his schedule. My view, looking out through the spiritual prison bars, has become a bit stagnated and dim.
Truthfully, I don’t want to turn this topic into a ‘me’. I’ve had enough of ‘me’ to last this lifetime and then some.
This too shall pass. But it sure won’t be because I, myself, held the keys to the cell door all this time.
--- Quote ---Hi Gary,
I hear what you're saying. The Father is hard to figure out. A tough nut to crack. The Scriptures say God is love. The Scriptures also say that God created evil. Love and evil don't normally go together. The Father created the most magnificent being. Then the Father willed that this being must suffer and die. Go figure. Hard to understand. At least it won't be boring. Take care amigo.
John
--- End quote ---
'love and evil don't normally go together'...................Precisely.
Thanks John.
lostANDfound:
you may be guilty of a few other offenses Gary, but you can't be charged with being lukewarm! and i might be guilty of being one of those "rosey" ones, preferring not to attend too much to the absolute horrors of our blip of time on earth. yes, this tendency is very much out of weakness.
babies getting abandoned, abused, raped. people's flesh being burned in house-fires. starvation. isolation. addiction. to think on these things and try to reconcile them with who I am learning God to be? no thanks. and God chose to create us with these fragile bodies and minds that are able to suffer intensely. this is very heavy stuff, and i commend you for looking at it with your eyes wide open rather than shoving your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes tight and singing hymns. i also commend your willingness to "put it out there" on a forum like this where you obviously knew you would meet some opposition. i DO NOT commend your attitude towards God though. i think if you continue to shake your tiny pipsqueak fist at God without really begging for understanding first, and seeking, and waiting, it will be to your utter shame. if pain and suffering are a (necessary!) part of the process required to change us from weak and carnal to strong and spiritual, SO BE IT! and while i can't claim to understand the full glory of the end of the story, i think there is more to it than "some mysterious, far off, hiding behind a bush better ‘spiritual’ development". mothers choose to have second, third, fourth babies even though they know through experience exactly what they will suffer -crazy intense pain- because it is WORTH IT. and once it's done, it's done. it'll be worth it. i have to believe that. i hope and pray that God will reveal to you (and us) some more of His plan. cuz for sure none of us fully get it yet!
walt123:
Hi,Garyk
I don't think this will be turn to you only,but we all do in some point in time.
Here are some Scripture to think about.
Job 38:1-3 (New Living Translation)
1 Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind:
2 “Who is this that questions my wisdom
with such ignorant words?
3 Brace yourself like a man,
because I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them
Job 40:1-2 (New Living Translation)
1 Then the Lord said to Job,
2 “Do you still want to argue with the Almighty?
You are God’s critic, but do you have the answers?”
Job 42:1-3 (New Living Translation)
1 Then Job replied to the Lord:
2 “I know that you can do anything,
and no one can stop you.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorance?’
It is I—and I was talking about things I knew nothing about,
things far too wonderful for me.
Isaiah 45:9 (New Living Translation)
9 “What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?
Hebrews 12:3-7 (New Living Translation)
3 Think of all the hostility he endured from sinful people;[a] then you won’t become weary and give up. 4 After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin.
5 And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said,
“My child,[c] don’t make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and don’t give up when he corrects you.
6 For the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”[d]
7 As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father?
Jeremiah 12:5 (New Living Translation)
5 “If racing against mere men makes you tired,
how will you race against horses?
If you stumble and fall on open ground,
what will you do in the thickets near the Jordon.
Ecclesiastes 1:13 (Young's Literal Translation)
13And I have given my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that hath been done under the heavens. It [is] a sad travail God hath given to the sons of man to be humbled by it.
WALT.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version