> General Discussions
did some people existed b4 adam was created?
Dave in Tenn:
I'd ask you to consider what Ray actually said, and in saying what he did and did not do in the Nashville '08 conference where this subject was initially hinted at. He taught from scripture that truth in science is part of the truth of God. He did not present a scientific theory, but he debunked one (or two) and taught what could be understood from scripture and a basic understanding of natural history--that is fully in line with the stated scriptural purpose of B-T--to expose those that contradict and to teach sound doctrine. And he showed that once again (as in many, many other cases) theologians get it wrong and teach the traditions of men instead of the very words of God...they parrot what others have said rather than reading what God said in scripture--ALL the words, comparing Spiritual with Spiritual, having two or three witnesses, etc. etc.
Now we're at this point, and already (still) speculating. It's understandable. Everybody like a sexy new subject. :D (though this one is not entirely new)
Is anybody here really, truly knowledgeable in science? If so, do you also have a knowledge of the scripture? If so, do you also have the spiritual 'chops' to follow God's rules for interpreting Scripture? If so, are you foolhardy enough to attempt to do that on Ray Smith's website? :D Has Ray?
Nobody can tell anybody what to think about this 'information'. Everybody is going to do what they want. We've really got no choice but to attempt to do what we want. Then we learn that we can't. :D That's the way God planned it.
I'll certainly agree with Stacey that--despite my feeling very old, I wasn't literally there either. The contemplation of the physical in any of scripture has got to be incomplete. Sciences like the many branches of natural history are also incomplete.
I'd urge everybody who finds themselves fascinated with this subject to read/view or re-read/re-view the Nashvill '08 conference materials (including the bible-study following the conference) to get a better grasp on what Ray is talking about, from his own mouth, and also what Ray is NOT saying.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on January 28, 2011, 12:05:47 PM ---I'd urge everybody who finds themselves fascinated with this subject to read/view or re-read/re-view the Nashvill '08 conference materials (including the bible-study following the conference) to get a better grasp on what Ray is talking about, from his own mouth, and also what Ray is NOT saying.
--- End quote ---
If I may Dave and I agree with your overall message. The only thing is Ray did not talk about this subject at the actual conference. For all those who did not attend in 2008, there was a Friday informal meet & greet with Ray. I was there, Kat, René, Joe (Hillsbororiver), along with a host of forum members and other people of similar interests.
Ray went into mankind existing before Adam, using the scriptures that spoke of Cain & his wife building a civilization [Gen 3:16-17] along with mankind being 'created' in Genesis 1 and Adam being 'made' in Genesis 2. It was an eye opener, but there was no depth given. Not that night or even throughout the conference.
Now the conference spoke of ALL creation being created 'for' 6 days, with days representing periods of time, not literal 24 hour periods. Scientific evidence, along with scriptures, were used to debunk the popular six 24-hour days of creation belief as well as Noah's flood being worldwide. We can go through the conference notes and see multiple witnesses to these things.
However, this new subject, that Ray only briefly touched on in a recent email, does not have the same depth or scores of scriptural witnesses. There are a few, but not many. Does it mean it is not true or important because there are only a 'few' scriptures that speak about it? No, but it also means there is not a lot of solid foundation for us to stay on.
For most of us, the overwhelming scriptural witnesses that Ray uses in his teaching were the tool that God used to open our eyes to the true gospel. These new comments don't seem to have that same overwhelming scriptural support. So there's only so far any of us can take this, at least on the forum.
Just my thoughts,
Marques
Samson:
Hi Everyone,
I am quite satisfied with Rays recent Email and subsequent response to Jake(Understanding Genesis). Ray explains the difference or distinction between Genesis Chapter 1&2 emphasizing the difference between Two Hebrew Words. ASAH(MADE)-Genesis. 1:26 and YATSAR(FORMED)-Genesis. 2:6. Genesis. 2:3 doesn't say their wasn't Mankind. I guess people just assume there weren't any, like all of us did at one time. Apparently, Adam and Eve were the beginning of an Agricultural Type of Mankind, because up until their Creation, there was " no one to till the soil." None of this information should necessitate or require that we believe that these Hunters and Gatherers prior to Adam/Eve had inferior Brain development requiring that they were likened to "Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, Australopithecus, Pi ltdown Man or any apelike creature. Just like certain Civilizations and groups of People throughout the Centuries are Technologically advanced. The Pygmies or Aborigines contrasted with the U.S. or European Nations, these Hunters/Gatherers were not as Technologically advanced as Adam/Eve(Agricultural). None of this knowledge about their existence requires that Adam and Eve were Types or shadows. Insofar as I'm concerned, they were literally/physical people.
After I'm done gabbing, I will include information of Ray's from two sources(The Fathers Will Conference & that recent Email). Also, their are many specific details that the Scriptures don't elaborate on. This brings to mind whats written at John. 21:25 " And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the Books that would be written. Amen." What we have as Bible Canon(Genesis thru Revelation) contain enough of a Translation difficulty & controversy as recently shown from Ray's explanation of the first few Chapters of Genesis in that Email. Imagine having several more Books that are accepted as Scripture. Also, whenever Mainline Christianity(Orthodoxy) has a preconceived or established Doctrine on a particular subject, they will do whatever's necessary to suppress or explain away any Scriptural Information(meanings of Greek & Hebrew Words, Proven Scientific Discoveries(not Evolution) in order to maintain the Status Quo. They do this with everything else, so why not with any proof substantiating the existence of Humans created prior to Adam & Eve. They do this with Spirit, soul, The Resurrection, God's Nature, Punishment, Free Will anything that that threatens their "Cherished" Beliefs. so they translate Words a certain way in order to support their Doctrines. Most Forum Members have different skills at being able to gain understanding of What Ray teaches. For Me, it's definition and word usage as exemplified in Ray's explanation of ASAH & YATSAR in that Email response. For others it's the Scientific information, etc, etc. Ray excerpts from below.
Points from Genesis Understanding Email in Blue.
RAY'S COMMENT: Chapter two does not contradict chapter one. The order in chapter one is plants, animals, and then humanity. Is this not the order found in the geologic table? Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve. In Genesis 1:26 God "made" [Heb: 'asah'] male and female. In Gen. 2:6 God "formed" [Heb: 'yatsar'] Adam--two difference Hebrew words: two different formations. Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 verse 3 that there was no man on earth at this time, but rather that there was "no man to till the ground." There were men, but they were hunters/gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more advance human to cultivate and farm the land.
The phrase "dress it and keep it" in verse 15, is "tend and cultivate." God is teaching Adam to be a farmer. When in doubt, read a proper translation. God did not create the animals AFTER He created Adam. Notice a proper translation from the Concordant Literal Old Testament: "And furthermore, Ieu Alueim ['the Lord God'] HAVING FORMED [yes, having ALREADY formed, millions of years in the past] all field life and every flyer of the heavens." God is bringing to Adam the Animal species which He had already created millions of years in the past, to have Adam give names to them. This obviously took years. Some, such as the dinosaurs (the reptilian 'tannyin, tannyim,' of Gen. 1:21 had already been extinct for many millions of years. These were decidedly not, "great whales," as the King James erroneously translates it).
It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc.
From The Fathers Will regarding Adam/Eve.
Gen. 2:18 God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him."
But not now, we have to name the animals, and keep tilling the garden, we’ll just keep doing this. But if you going to believe orthodoxy, it’s 6 literal days, you got to fit it in there. It all happened in late afternoon, you know, between 3:00 and 6:00, well whatever.
God did not have to repeat that it’s not good that this man should stay alone, because he went 2 hours without a mate, give me a break. I mean I’m sure he had a lot of testosterone, but I don’t think that he couldn’t go 2 hours. I’m thinking it was years.
And what I am saying, in my heart and mind I don’t believe that Adam tilled the garden and took care of the garden, and how big was it? 1000 acres? I don’t know how big it was, he took care of all that and then he named all the animals and everything in a few hours before sunset. I just don’t believe that. I believe it took certainly months, if not years.
And if God was just going to create Adam and say ok, now one of your jobs in the future is going to be to keep the garden, no. Now He was saying it to him then, you might say ok some of it you and your wife are going to do together later, no then.
He gave it to him now, and by the way, when you and your wife are taking care of the garden I want you to name the animals. He had to name them then and after he named all 6000 species, guess what? There was no one for Adam, there was no one for him. Can’t you see the longing here, over a long period of time? I think it was at least years. He didn’t have a mate, he looked for one and even God admitted that it was not good for man to continue forever without a mate. I’ll make him one, but not today. Now, then He says but there was none found for him.
Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.
v. 22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.
So we’re told God took a "rib" and closed it back up and made a woman out of the rib. Now He then said, wake up Adam I’ve got something for you. He wakes up Adam and He brings him the woman, Eve.
Gen 2:23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
She is part of my own bones and flesh, "this is it," Adam exclaimed. So first of all he was excited. I mean what a beauty, I mean come on all for me. But it was at least... you know he waited a long time, finally after all these years, finally someone for me.
How did he know it was bone of his bone? How could he look at Eve and say, you came out of me? What did he see? God didn’t say, 'Adam I know your going to wonder where this woman came from, I put you to sleep and I took a rib, I made her.' No, he could tell, he looked and saw and he said that’s me, you come from me. How did he know that? He looked, he had something before he went to sleep, he had something and when he woke up and God brought him to the woman, he didn’t have it anymore. She had it! What do you suppose that was? He (just like God) was male and female. God is male and female, Adam was male and female. God took the female part and made a woman out of it. Adam saw that what he had was now gone, it’s over there. She came from me, that’s bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, she came out of me.
Now can you see any spiritual connection in all this? How God is longing for a compliment, a counterpart, someone to compliment someone. It says a counterpart in the Greek, a compliment, or a help meet. A counter part for Adam that was not found, now he has a compliment, a counterpart to him, to make him complete.
That’s what God is longing for. Where is it going to come from? Out of Him. He has one Son, Jesus Christ, we are sons in the making. So where did Christ come from?
In the Hebrew the word is no. 6763 - tsela, and it can be translated ‘rib,’ and door, side and chamber. In Ezekiel 10 times this same word translated rib is translated chamber. A chamber-maid is usually some one who tends to the house, but specially the bedroom. If you look up chamber, the definition is a private room. The bedroom is your most private room. Our sexual anatomy is called our private parts. Can you put it together? This is not a rib. He took the femininity from him and made a woman. First He put it in the man, and then He took it from the man and made a woman out of it.
Now an interesting thing. It says in Tim. 2:14, that when Eve took the forbidden fruit she was deceived, the serpent had deceived her. But Adam was not deceived. Well if she was deceived, and she ate the fruit. Why did Adam eat it? He wasn’t deceived, so why did he eat it? Why didn’t he say you dumb female, you stupid wife of mine. How could you do such a dumb thing. No, no he did not. She gave him some and he ate it too.
Why would he do that? He knew. Because God told him first, and He told him specifically. And we know Eve knew because she said to the serpent, “God has said.” But first He said it to Adam before he created Eve. You can eat of every tree but of this tree you can not and the day you eat there of you will DIE. (Gen. 2:16-17)
In the Hebrew, ‘to die you shall be dying.” You will begin to die, you will be mortal and just die. You will be mortal and come to old age and die. So he knew that, he knew that when Eve ate it she was going to die. He longed for that woman so long and now she is going to die. He loved her so much, he said if she is going to die, I’m going to die with her, and he ate the fruit. He knew full well he would die, and he said I’m going with her. I’m not going to let her go alone, you see. So he was willing to die for that woman.
Hope this helps & doesn't add confusion, maybe I'll comment at a more convenient time regarding the Resurrection aspect of these Hunters/Gathers and probably regret it, ;), ;D.
hillsbororiver:
Excellent points Marques, I agree wholeheartedly.
I must admit I find this type of speculation and theorizing fascinating but at the same time tempered by how others especially new members and guests might perceive this type of topic. Going even further if we are perceived to encourage broad speculations where is the line drawn on other subjects that appear to still be either hidden or not apparently addressed in scripture.
Believe me I empathize with the moderators! ;)
Peace,
Joe
gmik:
Hello all....I was at the conference and Ray did talk about the Clovis Indians about 15-20,000 years ago on our continent. I have the book and the notes from that conference...and I left believing that there were people before Adam. If they are saying Adam was about 6,000 years ago, well science has proven over and over about people living all over the globe much longer than that.
For me, I would never ever broach this subject to ANY one- I can't explain it like Ray and why open up a can of worms??
Also men never were Neanderthal...entirely diff. species.
IMHO ;)
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