> General Discussions

Spiritual Journey Dilemma

<< < (3/9) > >>

hillsbororiver:

--- Quote from: Stacey on January 29, 2011, 08:28:16 AM ---
Hi Joe and welcome back to BTF, always did get some meat out of your input and its easy to see that you still have the fire within.


--- End quote ---

Hi Stacey,

Thank you very much for the kind words Brother!


--- Quote from: Stacey on January 29, 2011, 08:28:16 AM ---
I've read what you said here a few times over last night and again this morning. I definitely relate to a lot of it as I have been in a spiritual slump for way too long now. It was good for my spirit (not just my eye's) to take in what you had to say and yes, I get the picture.

Then, on the other hand. Reality, which sucks some times, sets in and I struggle with things like the no free will thing, believing it but not struggling with it sometimes. Reason I mention no free will is to me, it relates to everything you said here.

Yes we have been warned.


--- End quote ---

It is true we do not have free will but we do have certain decisions to make within a finite set of choices caused by circumstances totally outside of our control. We really don't even have any guarantees that the decisions we do make will turn out as we hoped. Of course there are always those pesky unintended consequences that rear their ugly heads all too often...

Just as Solomon prayed for godly discernment when he became king, we should be doing the same, I fail at this as often (probably more often) than anyone else but after the conversation with my friend I realized that the root of my stunted spiritual growth was due to falling back into old habits that tend to lead to frustration, anger and even hate, not exactly spiritual fruits.



--- Quote from: Stacey on January 29, 2011, 08:28:16 AM ---
Then some like me, go and do the opposite anyway. Why? <- See there I went and done the Why? I know we have to actually do the doing part of our journey even though we are caused to do it but dang it, it surely ain't just that simple or is it. Sometimes I think, just live and everything will fall into place and other times its, no, I gotta do this thing or that, speaking of the learning process, but there is no drive or desire to do it. Why? Well, if I'm on the right track in my thinker, because I have been caused to not have the desire or want to! <- Is this right?


--- End quote ---

You are not alone, Paul also spoke about knowing what is right yet doing what he had come to hate, he lamented over his own failure to be true to his beliefs consistently, it keeps us humble and keeps us striving if we do not forget the goal. But if (like me) we constantly do things we know are not beneficial to our spiritual growth how can we expect to grow spiritually?

It is kind of like bemoaning the fact that we cannot lose weight yet make it a point to take a stroll through the bakery every day. We have some decisions to make within the limited choices we do have available to us. Can we with our "free will" make bakeries disappear? Can we with our "free will" impose upon the bakery to only make low calorie healthy sea weed pastries? Obviously not. But we can decide to walk past the bakery without strolling through or we can make an even more radical choice to take a route (maybe walking an extra block or two in the process burning more calories) that would not even put us into a close proximity of that dastardly bakery. I will bet a dozen donuts that God will not grab you by the ear and drag you inside... Although down the road He just might cause you to have to be near the place and make another decision from the choices available.


--- Quote from: Stacey on January 29, 2011, 08:28:16 AM ---
Yes we should know well that in order to get to a higher level of understanding, the level we are on must be mastered first. I totally agree but what part of that is under our control? None of it. So as much as I really appreciate what you said here and agree with it I'm still stuck in a dry place but I am thinking on it harder now and that is a good change that I know happened after reading your post here so, I really do thank you for your thread. I'm gonna read it again.


--- End quote ---

I do believe we have a role in this process, if not why didn't He just create a bunch of remote controlled androids to amuse Himself with? He desires children who only want goodness and to share His Mind and Love, He has determined our experience of evil in this present existence will bring that desire to fruition, we will come to a point where we thoroughly despise evil.

Do I claim to understand His "strange work" completely? No. But what I have been reminded of is that if we deal faithfully with the (very limited) knowledge we have been given so far then more understanding will be our reward!

Thank you for the thoughtful testimony, questions and observations, this really helps me to get a better understanding as well.

Peace Brother,

Joe   
   
 

Dave in Tenn:
Also been considering this thread.  An illustration:  My dad had a good sense of humor and outlook.  When his kids (my sisters and I) were young and complained about our aches and pains, sniffles and twinges, one of his favorite replies was to say "That's what happens just before you die."  

Remembering that makes me think of this walk having much more to do with dying than with living.  Being crucified with Christ, the seed falling to the ground and dying, reckoning oneself dead, dying to self, and many other truths that might not 'say' death, but Spiritually mean the same thing.  This is the point I am at, have been at, and will likely be at for a while longer.  Faith tells me to hang on.  It was the Father's will that Jesus die.  He was obedient even unto death.

Heb 12:1-4  ...let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.  Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.  In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Nope, I haven't resisted Spiritual sin to the point of Spiritually shedding my blood.  That would mean dying, and who wants to do that?  Yes, indeed, it is a strange work He is doing.  Pretty danged strange to say he who looses his life shall find it, and for Paul to say, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live."
    
Seems there is another kind of death, maybe, unless I'm just not getting it.  It's the death that comes from being carnally minded.  In his later years, my Dad's sense of humor and good outlook faded under the assault of religion, politics, and media much like your OP mentioned.

If it was easy to figure this stuff out AND do it, seems like some denomination or another would have done so by now, written it in a pithy statement in their creed, and taught it succesfully in Sunday School.  Hasn't happened in 2000 years.  That's the way God planned it.    

Kat:

This no free will thing is certainly difficult to nail down, for any of us. But what really helps me understand His sovereignty is knowing God is in EVERYTHING!

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and in Him ALL THINGS consist. (NKJ)

Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him." (CLV)

Col 1:17 And, he, is before all, and, they all, in him, hold together; (Rotherham)

When you come to where you really comprehend that IN HIM "all things consist" or "has its cohesion" or "hold together," then you can see there is no free will. He knows all things because He is in all things! He knows when a sparrow falls the the ground, He knows the number of hair on your head (Matt !0), why He has named all the stars!

Psa 147:4  He counts the number of the stars;
       He calls them all by name.

So yes we have no free will, but God is creating through this incredible human experience a multitude of thinking individual. All of us have varying degrees of interests, likes and dislikes, skills, talents, etc. and that's what a part of this experience is about. In the process of being created into His image through this physical experience He is making us all into different, unique individuals.

Psa 147:5  Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;
       His understanding is infinite.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

DougE6:
Hi John
Don't you think you OVER emphasize the NO Free will truth?  I don't ever hear you talk about trying with effort to resist sin, to put forth any effort. What are you going to do with all those scriptures that tell us to WRESTLE, to PUT OFF, to RECKON OURSELVES DEAD, TO PUT ON, TO RESIST, TO RUN THE RACE, TO BE FILLED, TO SEEK, TO SEEK-I say it again-TO SEEK and all those admonitions.  I do get the sense that you take your private interpretation of no free will too far.  If a fat man feels an impulse to go into the bakery, that he seems to weak to resist, well, its Gods will to go in, isn't it? Go eat, cause your too weak too resist!  Dont try to FLEE. Don't wrestle. Go in and sin. With that attitude almost all smokers would never kick the habit of smoking, almost all gold medal winners would of won nothing. NOTHING ON THIS EARTH EITHER PHYSICAL OR SPIRITUAL THAT IS WORTHWHILE IS ACCOMPLISHED WITHOUT GREAT EFFORT> PERIOD.  Where is the talk of courage, of striving, of working at it until it is good?
It is true that you have to abide in the vine.  But if you were truly abiding in the vine, then your works would be really really good, would they not? The same works as Jesus?  If your works are not that good, then you are not abiding in that vine as well as you think.  Maybe God will grant those to abide in the vine to only those who really really want it. I do not see any whisker in the New testament about not striving with all our hearts. We are to strive withe all our hearts.  I will beg God to make and teach me to hear His voice, to teach me to abide in the vine, to learn that BALANCE between resting in Him and trying with all my heart. Balance, John, balance. We need more balance here.

DougE6:
Hi John
I think that almost every alcoholic that has been freed from those chains of alcoholism will give the credit to God. They understand and believe that they were powerless and needed to RELY on God to accomplish their deliverance.  BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT TAKES GREAT EFFORT ON THIER PART! God while giving them victory does not remove the need to give effort.
Yes, on their own they do not succeed. Many have tried over and over, promised and tried, and failed.  But if they are to be rescued, in Gods plan and timing, there does comes a time that God takes them to the point where the desperately WANT and BEG to be rescued. Usually this is when they totally realize they have no power, no strength, and usually, their lives are in shambles.  Their beast is dying. They know they are powerless. Then God does intervene in a different way than before.  And He does give them the strength, the GRACE to say no, whereas the SIMILAR effort they put forth prior that was not successful now is successful.  Effort doesn't go away,  it is just that the hold that the beast had is broken, and God makes their efforts fruitful.
They all admit, even after years of being sober, that it is an everyday walk, that TAKES EFFORT!!!!!  Great Effort. They have counselors. They have someone they can call. They rely on God everyday.  They make a conscious effort to rely on Him. They actively say no every single day. It is more successful than before, as their own private beast struggled and died, at least in that area. So they have learned to rely on God and abide in the vine, but they still give their all. 
I reiterate the need for balance. Not a single alcoholic that I know, who has been delivered, says their was no need to struggle or faced/faces times of great temptations that try them severely. You make it sound like we don't need to sweat blood, sweat, and tears. That is false.
 
 

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page