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Author Topic: Male and female  (Read 2715 times)

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Oatmeal

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Male and female
« on: February 13, 2011, 05:24:50 AM »

This is a question that I asked in a recent discussion that wasn't answered.
 
Genesis Chapter One

Genesis 1:26-27
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis Chapter Two

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:21-24
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Jesus

Matthew 19:4-6
And he answered and said unto them,  Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female [Genesis chapter 1], And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh [Genesis chapter 2]? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Mark 10:6-9
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female [Genesis chapter 1]. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh [Genesis chapter 2]: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

I'll try to make this simple:

Jesus said that in the beginning God created them male and female (He quoted from Genesis 1) therefore the two shall be one flesh (He then quoted from Genesis 2)

Genesis 2 says that the woman was taken out of man therefore the two shall be one flesh.

Conclusion:

Creating them male and female = the woman being taken out of man = one creation of man.

Is that logical or have I missed it?
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From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

mharrell08

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Re: Male and female
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2011, 11:31:40 AM »

I'll try to make this simple:

Jesus said that in the beginning God created them male and female (He quoted from Genesis 1) therefore the two shall be one flesh (He then quoted from Genesis 2)

Genesis 2 says that the woman was taken out of man therefore the two shall be one flesh.

Conclusion:

Creating them male and female = the woman being taken out of man = one creation of man.

Is that logical or have I missed it?


The Holy Scriptures were not written in chapters, different bible translations are what brought about the use of chapter/verse to help organize passages. So in that sense, it is hard to make a point about Jesus quoting from one chapter versus another, He simply quoted from the book of Moses (Genesis through Deuteronomy) [Mark 12:26, Lk 24:27 & 44].

The quote 'two shall be one flesh' is in regards to the actual marriage of Adam & Eve. Adam took Eve to be his wife and that is what made them one:

Gen 2:24  Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh

There is not a marriage ceremony taking place earlier in the creation account, only a statement about mankind being created:

Gen 1:26-27  Then God said, ďLet Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.Ē So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Oatmeal

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Re: Male and female
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2011, 07:25:03 PM »

The Holy Scriptures were not written in chapters, different bible translations are what brought about the use of chapter/verse to help organize passages. So in that sense, it is hard to make a point about Jesus quoting from one chapter versus another, He simply quoted from the book of Moses (Genesis through Deuteronomy) [Mark 12:26, Lk 24:27 & 44].

I was not making a point about Jesus quoting from one chapter verses another.  I was making a point about Jesus quoting from two different parts of the book of Genesis, which you are telling us is a part of the book of Moses.  The modern chapter and verse division is a convenient way for us to refer to a certain part or parts of the Scriptures.  I referred to the two different parts of Genesis by using this method.  I donít understand what the point is you are making here.  It is very possible that I donít have the intelligence or spiritual maturity to understand the point that you are trying to make.

I was making a point about Jesus quoting from two different parts of the book of Genesis and combining them as if they were both referring to a single and one-time and an only once ever creation of a mankind.  This is in relation to a recent discussion on the forum: "did some people existed b4 adam was created?"

Quote
The quote 'two shall be one flesh' is in regards to the actual marriage of Adam & Eve. Adam took Eve to be his wife and that is what made them one:

Gen 2:24  Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh

I am not going to argue as to whether this refers to the actual marriage of Adam and Eve, it possibly does have some reference to a marriage of Adam and Eve but it does not seem to be a direct reference.  Logically speaking, because Eve was made from Adamís flesh, Adam and Eve were one flesh from the time of the forming of Eve and didnít need to get married to become one flesh.  The Scripture that you quote says that a man shall leave his father and mother (something that Adam could not do) so I am not sure how this scripture directly refers to a marriage of Adam and Eve although I am not saying that it has absolutely no reference.  A man and a woman get married and they become one flesh.  Because a woman was originally taken out of a man, for this reason, because the woman was originally one flesh with the man, for this reason, a man shall leave his mother and father (so there is a direct reference to future marriages) and become one flesh with his wife, and become as Adam and Eve were.

Quote
There is not a marriage ceremony taking place earlier in the creation account, only a statement about mankind being created:

Gen 1:26-27  Then God said, ďLet Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.Ē So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

The creation referred to here is a creation made in the image of God, according to His likeness, and one that had dominion over all the earth, and so it does not appear to have been an earlier substandard creation of mankind.  You say that there is no marriage ceremony taking place here, but what did Jesus say?   Jesus said that because in the beginning God made them male and female, for this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and become one flesh with his wife.  Jesus did not say, because the woman was taken out of the man, for this reason, a man shall leave father and mother and become one flesh with his wife, but because in the beginning God made them male and female.  This shows to me that in the beginning God creating them male and female, and God taking the woman out of man, is the very same happening.

So therefore Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 2:7, 21-24 are referring to the same creation of man.  I am explaining how it logically works out for me.  However, if this is not a true logical conclusion, then someone just needs to explain the true logics and how it really is.  Perhaps you have explained it Marques, and I am too dense to understand.

--------------

Is the following Scripture also combining and merging Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 accounts, and by doing so confirming that there was only one creation of mankind?

Genesis 5:1-5
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

What does the following Scripture mean?  I might be completely wrong here but this Scripture gives me the idea that all nations came from one person.

Acts 17:26b
AndG5037 hath madeG4160 ofG1537 oneG1520 bloodG129 allG3956 nationsG1484 of menG444

And what about this Scripture?

Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 08:35:52 PM by Oatmeal »
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From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

mharrell08

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Re: Male and female
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2011, 09:10:17 PM »

The Holy Scriptures were not written in chapters, different bible translations are what brought about the use of chapter/verse to help organize passages. So in that sense, it is hard to make a point about Jesus quoting from one chapter versus another, He simply quoted from the book of Moses (Genesis through Deuteronomy) [Mark 12:26, Lk 24:27 & 44].

I was not making a point about Jesus quoting from one chapter verses another.  I was making a point about Jesus quoting from two different parts of the book of Genesis, which you are telling us is a part of the book of Moses.  The modern chapter and verse division is a convenient way for us to refer to a certain part or parts of the Scriptures.  I referred to the two different parts of Genesis by using this method.  I donít understand what the point is you are making here.  It is very possible that I donít have the intelligence or spiritual maturity to understand the point that you are trying to make.

I was making a point about Jesus quoting from two different parts of the book of Genesis and combining them as if they were both referring to a single and one-time and an only once ever creation of a mankind.  This is in relation to a recent discussion on the forum: "did some people existed b4 adam was created?"


I'm sorry for the confusion Oatmeal. I was attempting to avoid being long-winded but rather direct and may have missed my point.

The church teaches that the account of Adam's creation in Gen 2:7 is the same account from Gen 1:26-27, just with more detail. In actuality, Gen 2 is continuing in the progression of creation.

Gen 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

This is the last verse in chapter 1. Chapter 2 begins, not with a recap of what was stated in chapter 1 but continuing on:

Gen 2:1-3  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Moses speaks of the seventh day, as a continuing thought of what happened after the sixth day. The creation in Gen 1:26-27 was on the sixth day but Adam was created on the seventh. Ray has shown from the use of 'day' that these were not 24 hour period but rather long ages, just from usage within the scriptures. Science also backs up the existence of mankind for a lot longer than 6000 years ago, as that is the length of time traced back to Adam.

So in short, chapter 2 is not a recount of chapter 1 but is a continual witness of creation started from chapter 1. The use of 'chapters' has helped cause confusion in the church as they look at this as a 'pause' of sort in Moses' writing. I hope this helps, this is the best I can at explaining this point.


As far as the rest of your comments, I don't think it will edify either of us to continue going back and forth. Like you, there are a few members who do not agree with Ray's recent teachings of Adam not being the first human created. While any question is welcome, there comes a point when both sides of the disagreement just have to move on. If you or anyone else truly wants further teaching on the matter, please email Ray. Hope you understand.


Marques
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Oatmeal

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Re: Male and female
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2011, 12:06:28 AM »

Thanks Marques
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From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

onelovedread

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Re: Male and female
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2011, 10:08:58 PM »

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer.
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daywalker

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Re: Male and female
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2011, 03:07:54 PM »

Therefore it follows that teaching is a lie since Satan wouldn't let them teach the truth.

Well, to be fair, there is 'some' truth in the teachings of Christendom... it's just smothered with a whole lotta sugar-coated lies...   ;)

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