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Author Topic: I Cor. 14:34  (Read 2198 times)

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Revilonivek

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I Cor. 14:34
« on: February 25, 2011, 11:13:58 PM »

I was reading this part about women not allowed to speak in churches.  I Cor. 14:34 says:
 
34Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[g]

Here's the thing that came to mind....

It was found in the very same chapter  where Paul was discussing about speaking in tongues, the majority of it was about speaking in tongues and gifts. Maybe this is what Paul meant when he said this about women, in regards to speaking in tongues or just trying to be respectful of their time's laws to avoid conflict with people bec of their  beliefs that women aren't allowed rights.

I know Paul came from a time where women's rights were severely limited  and everyday affairs were mostly dictated by men. I was thinking maybe Paul probably believed what he felt was proper for his time, to avoid conflict among people and their beliefs.  Women had no place in govt, businesses, nor church back then.  I know God wouldn't have limited calling to men only to have a voice, to testify, etc. mary magdalena, Ruth, deborah, etc

Just a thought and wanted to see what you guys thought of this?
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mharrell08

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Re: I Cor. 14:34
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2011, 12:26:35 AM »

From the FAQ Board:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11604.0.html--------------


Women preachers/teachers

Dear Bryant:  Your Bible says the same thing mine does, I reckon. We have two witnesses to the fact that Paul did not allow women to be teachers or preachers in the Congregation. Unless something can show me that these verses do not mean what they say, I can only conclude that they mean what they say.
God be with you,
Ray
 
PS   I have read the arguments that because God used women to lead Israel in the past (Example: Deborah), women should therefore be permitted to teach in the congregation, but I don't see how they get around Paul's declarations to the contrary.

---------------------------------
Dear Ryan:
There isn't much to clear up, as the Scriptures are fairly clear on this subject, and you have read them for yourself.  As for women not being educated, it seems like a rather absurd thing to say.  I wouldn't want to suggest that around my wife.  There were highly educated women back in Israel.  Let people believe what they want to believe. Only God's Spirit can open their minds.
God be with you,
Ray

---------------------------------
Dear Mr. Jackson:
Certainly women are able to declare God's Truth, as you state. It is also true that those baptized into Christ are, "...neither male nor female...IN CHRIST."  (Gal. 2:27-28).  But we are also still IN THE FLESH, and in the flesh, we are indeed male and female.  If the statement that IN Christ there is no "difference" between male and female, then homosexuality would be perfectly fine.  Can you not see the problem here with thinking like that?
 
When Paul instructed the early Church that women were to keep silent in the Church, it was not just a "Jewish custom and tradition." Here is another declaration from Paul concerning men and women still in the flesh: "But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ, and the HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the Head of Christ is God"  (I Cor. 11:3).  This statement is not "custom and tradition.
 
When Paul says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches...." (I Cor. 14:34) it is not custom or tradition, but rather "...the things I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD" (Verse 37).
 
Also understand that women are no some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. Yes, both are called "the sons [some times children[ of God," but this is often used as is "Adam"  and "man" in the Genesis when really referring to "humanity" in the Hebrew.
 
When God "receives us unto Himself," are we all "males?"  "Masculine?"
Notice what the Scripture tells us:  "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty"  (II Cor. 6:18).
 
Anyway, I'll write a paper on this subject one day, but not today.
God be with you,
Ray
 
But for the reasons of authority mentioned above and other reasons too numerous to cover in an email, God has ordained that women are not to be the teachers in formal meetings of the congregations.

---------------------------------
Dear George:

I am thinking that you believe Gal. 3:27 voids out I Cor. 14:34?  If it does, the why would Paul have written it?

The answer is quote simple:

"IN CHRIST" there is no "male or female."  But, IN THE FLESH there still is male and female, otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin. Can you see how silly that approach to this Scripture would be?

We are still in physical bodies and we are still male and female, and as such the man is the head of the woman just as Jesus is the head of the Church. And as such, Paul did not permit women to preach or teach in the congregation.  However, there are many situation in which women can teach: to their children (both girls and boys); on the telephone, in letters, in group discussions, etc.  I believe their teaching is just pretty much limited in the area of not getting in front of an assembly of men and women and being featured as the main speaker or teacher. Not that she might not be able or qualified, but rather it is a matter of subjection to authority.  I have never done a long study on this subject, but I have read several papers by those who have, and most of them are shot through with theological holes.

God be with you,

Ray
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walt123

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Re: I Cor. 14:34
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2011, 12:48:32 AM »

Hi Denise

Hope this can be helpful also,got this from,mobile conference 09.

Walt.


WOMEN PREACHING?

Somebody ask me about woman preachers, what do I think about women preachers? I said I don’t know. He said, ‘what do you mean, “you don’t know,” Ray you know everything.’ When people ask I say, well Paul said that women should keep silent in the church. He said, ‘well do you believe that?’ I said I don’t know. He said, ‘but what do you think.’ I said, I don’t know! I said about a year or two ago I studied it for a whole week, like ten hours a day I studied that and I don’t know the answer to it.

I mean there seems to be somewhat of a contradiction between, “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak,” (1Cor 14:34). Then the fact that even the woman at the well. When Christ was talking to her about you have to worship God in spirit and truth… she ran back to town and told the whole city that she had just met the Lord and she started spreading the gospel.

Paul had different woman help him out. Who supported Christ’s ministry? Women. It names Joanna and Susanna (Luke 08) and Mary Magdalene and there isn’t a man among them. Women supported the ministry of Jesus Christ.

But you’ve got to pay attention to the words and we are going to do that. As you leave this conference and you want to worship God, you will have to read this Bible very carefully, look at all the words. Don’t be guilty of ‘reading without heading.’ If it says to do or to think, or not to do or not to think, that’s what you do. That’s worship. When you can accept that God says it and I’ll do it, that’s worship.
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Joel

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Re: I Cor. 14:34
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2011, 02:14:22 AM »

The fact that there is a thread that runs from Genesis to Revelations that can not be broken except by God himself is a fact in the scriptures.
Paul being lead by the Lord to write the words he did in 1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the CHURCHES: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to BE UNDER OBEDIENCE, as also saith the law. 
Ties in with Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, AND HE SHALL RULE OVER THEE.

I know God did many wonderful things through various women mentioned in the Bible, but were there any that served in the CHURCH in the wilderness as did the priest?
I ain't no woman basher, love them dearly, have been married for 40 years :)
God laid down the rules in the beginning in Genesis, and Paul had to abide by the Lord's instructions in his writing to the New Testament CHURCHES.

Joel
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Kat

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Re: I Cor. 14:34
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2011, 01:09:34 PM »


Well okay what God said to Eve in the garden is true at that time and I believe "thy husband, and he shall rule over thee," will remain true as long as we are in physical form, God did make women the "weaker vessel."

But I must say what Paul said in 1Cor 14:34 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," directly related to that time. In that time in 'traditional Judaism,' the primary role of a woman is as wife and mother, keeper of the household.  

So it is my understanding that women, in Judaism, were exempted from all positive commandments ("thou shalts" as opposed to "thou shalt nots") that are time-related (that is, commandments that must be performed at a specific time of the day or year), because the woman's duties as wife and mother are so important that they cannot be postponed to fulfill a commandment.  After all, a woman cannot be expected to just drop a crying baby when the time comes to perform a commandment. (Got this from a Jewish site on the role of women in traditional Judaism concerning the Synagogue)

This helps me understand the position that Paul took in 1 Cor. 14. It is not that women had no part in religious life, in fact Jewish religious life revolves around the home. The prayer services in the Synagogue was only a small, though important, part of the Jewish religion.

So I do believe that women should not speak in the Synagogue/church, but that is really a very narrow exemption when all is considered, for believers anyway.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 01:14:25 PM by Kat »
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Revilonivek

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Re: I Cor. 14:34
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2011, 01:56:50 PM »

That scripture was found in the same chapter that Paul was correcting the Corinthians about their abuse with speaking in tongues and what the correct way to use it in the very same chapter he mentioned women to keep silent in church, so I was thinking maybe he was referring to speaking in tongues?? That is my question? is it separate regarding something else, in regards to no voice in church? or does it pertain to speaking in tongues that Paul was discussing with the Corinthians for most of that chapter? My feeling was that Paul was trying to be respectful at the same time because of the laws of man, when it comes to women's rights.

I have questioned this because God has used women, as prophets-

There's a few women, called prophets..

Deborah,

found in Judges

Judges 4:4 (King James Version)
 4And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

Deborah was a spiritual leader, a prophetess, the spokesperson for God. The big mother for her people.  Israel  used her counsel in the absence of Moses and Joshua. God used her to help bring victory to her people. She was greatly respected for her godly character. As a prophet, she did not formulate rulings in the traditional manner.  For this reason, she was considered an exception to the ruling that a judge be male. Her feminine character was appropriate for leading that particular generation, as Deborah herself stated: can read about her in Judges  She commends male leaders, etc,  knew of the promises of God, and made herself available to God. And she did what she did..  All that was required was obedience and courage.

Anna

mentioned in the gospel of Luke

They didn't talk much about her, just that she never left her temple, and knew about Jesus even when jesus was young. prayed and fasted alot.

Luke 2:36-38 (King James Version)

 36And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;37And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

 38And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Huldah, a prophetess,

Huldah was a prophetess mentioned briefly in 2 Kings 22, and 2 Chronicles 34. After the discovery of a book of the Law during renovations at Solomon's Temple, on the order of King Josiah, Hilkiah together with Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan and Asaiah approach her to get the Lord's opinion.

2 Kings 22:14 (King James Version)

14So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.

Miriam, sister of Aaron, a prophetess, a leader along with moses and Aron, you should read about her..

Exodus 15:20 (King James Version)

20And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Mrs. Isaiah, a prophetess,

Isaiah 8:3 (King James Version)

 3And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.


And besides- WE are not to be perceived as male and female in the spirit, and if you still see after the flesh, as woman and man, you are still tied to the stumbling blocks of physical..

for example..

He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
The Bible's decree of male supremacy has kept woman inferior to men for centuries. For the religious, it comes as a sad fact that a human must have a penis to receive any respect or power within the Church.

Deut 23:1

as we grow in christ, we are no longer after the flesh but the spiritual only.

throughout the bible, men-as carnally minded,  treats women inferiorly for first bringing sin in the world and as a consequence, women suffer greatly because men make it so...even disciples were upset that Jesus talked to an samonsite woman by the well, bec by law, its not allowed to speak with a woman.. We all know we suffer now because  we can learn the difference between good and evil, and has even used women throughout history to change the course of mankind.

I think when Paul said this, putting women in their place because of their first sin,he was still learning and still growing in Christ, and it was later, that he realized we are not to know after the physical but the spiritual.

That is my question. Because if you still use what Paul says when he is still growing in Christ, that means, women aren't allowed to sing, pray, or speak , or preach in church at all.. no voice, whatsoever in the spiritual  body of Christ, the church of Christ.. because of women's sin.

Make sense?

We are to live after the spiritual, nor male, nor female... or are we bonded to the sexual identity of our gender in the spiritual church of God, when it comes to your calling?

That's my question..





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mharrell08

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Re: I Cor. 14:34
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2011, 02:18:24 PM »

We are to live after the spiritual, nor male, nor female... or are we bonded to the sexual identity of our gender in the spiritual church of God, when it comes to your calling?

That's my question...


Denise,

Your question was answered on the FAQ board. Every point that you made.

While I can't speak for the churches of the world, the body of believers on this forum treat each member equally. Every member is allowed to comment as they see fit. No one (at least to my knowledge) has given Kat or René any grief for being women moderators, nor should they. And one would have to be dense & stupid to not see God inspiring them, along with other female members, in their posts on the forum.

As far as one's calling, from my experience, everyone wants to teach or lead in biblical studies. And without regard to gender, most are not equipped to do so mainly because their motivation is all wrong. But they will do it anyway, no matter what James says about how one should not be so quick to teach [Jam 3:1].

If anyone (male or female) feels 'called' to teach, that is between them and God. There's no point in seeking approval from anyone else. If it is from God, it will be successful. If not, it will fail miserably [Acts 5:38-39].


Hope this helps,

Marques


P.S. Since we have an entire board dedicated to this subject, I think we'll head this off now.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 02:21:17 PM by mharrell08 »
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