Calvinism's Heartless "Gospel"

[Hopeful]

Hello guys. For the last few years, I have been heavily under the influence of Calvinism. I must say, it was absolutely horrible. I kept trying to convince myself that predestining countless billions to eternal torment was somehow "justice". When I brought these issues before my fellow Calvinists, all I ever got was "Who are you oh man that replies against God?". The heartless cruelty my fellow Calvinists displayed was utterly horrific to my rather tender heart.

For instance:

"Anyone who thinks that God's glory is not worth the death and eternal suffering of billions has too high an opinion of himself and humanity."
-Vincent Cheung

Their attitude was something like this:

We are the Lord's elect few
Let all the rest be damned
There's room enough in hell for you
We won't have heaven to be crammed

I saw them rejoicing at the idea of the eternal suffering of babies. This utterly appalled me. And yet they told me that if I didn't do the same, I was obviously one of the non-elect who was predestined for eternal torment. So, in great fear, I kept trying for months and months to convince myself that this was somehow justice. As you can imagine, my conscience was in full revolt against this. I sank deeper and deeper into depression. I admit, the only reason I didn't kill myself was my utter, paralyzing dread of God and of hell. I was utterly terrorized on every level. I wondered in my heart of hearts (not that I would ever say it out loud, of course) to whom could this possibly constitute "Good news of great joy which shall be to all people". Only utterly heartless sociopaths, it seemed, could possibly make it into this "heaven".

Coming from this background as I did, you can imagine how Ray's teachings struck me. Here, at last, was really "good news"! This made me happier than I had been in years. At last, I did indeed experience the "peace that passes all understanding"! My fear was cast out by perfect love, at last!

Unfortunately, it seems my Calvinistic indoctrination will not pass so easily. Lately, my fears seem to be reasserting themselves. My mind keeps asking me "what if all doesn't really mean all?" what if this, what if that. I don't know what to do. I have prayed, fervently and often, for my fear to be cast away. I have studied the Bible as well as Ray's teachings, and yet it still will not go away. I sense that I am slipping back into bondage to fear. Please help me. I don't want to go back to that world of swirling misery and torment. Please help. If nothing else, can you pray for me?

[believerchrist100]

Of course and give this article a read and you'll see how you can prove all will be saved without using the word "all":

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.0.html

September 2007 Bible Study: Does All Mean All?

[Nan]

I will pray for you.

[Hopeful]

Hello guys. For the last few years, I have been heavily under the influence of Calvinism. I must say, it was absolutely horrible. I kept trying to convince myself that predestining countless billions to eternal torment was somehow "justice". When I brought these issues before my fellow Calvinists, all I ever got was "Who are you oh man that replies against God?". The heartless cruelty my fellow Calvinists displayed was utterly horrific to my rather tender heart.

For instance:

"Anyone who thinks that God's glory is not worth the death and eternal suffering of billions has too high an opinion of himself and humanity."
-Vincent Cheung

Their attitude was something like this:

We are the Lord's elect few
Let all the rest be damned
There's room enough in hell for you
We won't have heaven to be crammed

I saw them rejoicing at the idea of the eternal suffering of babies. This utterly appalled me. And yet they told me that if I didn't do the same, I was obviously one of the non-elect who was predestined for eternal torment. So, in great fear, I kept trying for months and months to convince myself that this was somehow justice. As you can imagine, my conscience was in full revolt against this. I sank deeper and deeper into depression. I admit, the only reason I didn't kill myself was my utter, paralyzing dread of God and of hell. I was utterly terrorized on every level. I wondered in my heart of hearts (not that I would ever say it out loud, of course) to whom could this possibly constitute "Good news of great joy which shall be to all people". Only utterly heartless sociopaths, it seemed, could possibly make it into this "heaven".

Coming from this background as I did, you can imagine how Ray's teachings struck me. Here, at last, was really "good news"! This made me happier than I had been in years. At last, I did indeed experience the "peace that passes all understanding"! My fear was cast out by perfect love, at last!

Unfortunately, it seems my Calvinistic indoctrination will not pass so easily. Lately, my fears seem to be reasserting themselves. My mind keeps asking me "what if all doesn't really mean all?" what if this, what if that. I don't know what to do. I have prayed, fervently and often, for my fear to be cast away. I have studied the Bible as well as Ray's teachings, and yet it still will not go away. I sense that I am slipping back into bondage to fear. Please help me. I don't want to go back to that world of swirling misery and torment. Please help. If nothing else, can you pray for me?

Hello Hopeful,

One of my favorite scriptures is Philippians 4:6 "...Do not worry about anything..." (Concordant Literal New Testament version).  Read the rest of verses 6 through 9.

When God is with us, we do not have to worry about anything because there is no greater power.

God brought you here for a reason.  Don't trust in yourself or others.  God will bring you the peace you need.  Take care,

John

True. But I am in need, and I also believe that "The prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16). It seems to me to be worth a shot, at least. I do not wish to go back to how it used to be, where every day was nothing but an endless vortex of pain and misery, and I had to do worldly things to take the horrors off of my mind just to keep sane.

[Ninny]

Hi Hopeful!
I'll pray for you...I understand the pressure and the pull of old beliefs..I was a 7th Day Adventist for 20 years and it took me many years to get over the legalism in my mind!  I learned many truths in the church along with the error..but the truths I learned have blessed me very much in the years since I left..I went to many churches before I found BT and realized that I was one of those "square pegs in a round world"!! God loves you and He has you in His hand..don't worry and don't be afraid..just hold fast and depend on Him to lead you!!
Kathy

[G. Driggs]

Unfortunately, it seems my Calvinistic indoctrination will not pass so easily.

I've heard many times that the beast within will not go down without a fight, and my personal experience has shown this to be true. All I can say is give it time, be patient and wait for God.

I still have doubts too, even after seeds of truth were planted a couple years ago. What seems to help is positive thinking. I have to constantly remind myself of the good things that are no doubt true. Things that I remember from Rays papers that are undeniable and totally bookended by the scriptural witnesses he provides.

Try not to get overwhelmed with "what ifs" and take it one step at a time, one truth at a time if you have to.

Remember that where ever the truth is heard, Satan will be right there trying to plant doubts.

We're praying for you. Stay hopeful Hopeful.

G.Driggs

[arion]

I've heard many times that the beast within will not go down without a fight, and my personal experience has shown this to be true. All I can say is give it time, be patient and wait for God.

I was thinking about that this morning.  On another board I'm on the christians are doing the articles about the Islamics and how they want to kill us and then how we need to respond back in kind. If not in deed at least in word.  They cast aspersians against 'the religion of peace' and say that they are children of the devil.  This is true.  Yet, I told them that God had mercy on us when we were in unbelief and that except for the grace of God any of us could of been born in the middle east and grew up under this brainwashing.  We are to pity them, love them and not return evil for evil.  Not too many years ago I was the christian 'patriot' kind who was more than willing to do it to them before they do it to us and to justify it through the twisting of the scriptures.  I look back now at my attitudes I had then and I shudder in horror that I even thought like that at one time.  Truly christians often despise the words of Christ where we are told to love our enemies and to do good to those who abuse us, ect.  Yet, it's not an instant transformation to be molded into Christs image.  I wasn't what I was 5 years ago (thank God!!)  and if I'm still alive 5 years from now I won't be what I am now.  It's a process that can often only be discerned as we 'look behind' us to see where we have been.  So be at peace Hopeful.  It doesn't take place overnight and God is slowly working on you to erradicate those beliefs of the Calvinists that were ingrained in you.  God has it all under control and he'll get you where you need to be when you need to be there.  I'm learning a lot more these days about Jesus saying that his yoke is easy and his burden is light.

[santikos]

it is a very hard thing to seperate our emotions from the truth of God's word. just know that the abyss of our human heart is very deep, the things that proceed from that place are just evil in every way. put on the armor of God, ask him for wisdom and strength to endure. we are here for you, keep us informed.

[DougE6]

Hi Hopeful
Thanks for the "inside" look at what it is like to be a Calvanist! Calvinists are very very persistent in their beliefs, I have some good friends who are Cavinists, and I have discussed these horrors with them and they remain unmoved.  It is shocking to witness the very depths of the heartlessness.  If God is really like they say, then who would want to be with him. The only reason they would want to be with him would be to escape the horrific fate of the other unfortunates, which they are learning to harden their hearts against.

Calvinists takes the greatest attribute of God, that He demonstrates His love for us by having His Son to give His life for us, and turns it on its ear, to make God the very opposite of what He was demonstrating, Love.  It is a masterful work of satan. It impugns Gods character more than any other thing, any other religion, that I can think of. yet because it is based on fear, the adherents cannot bear to look at any contrary evidence, because they cannot risk their own souls! They are all too familiar with the horrors of damnation and to look at the belief critically is far too risky!!! Can you imagine the fear that would have to be overcome to leave calvinism? You have to LOVE others more than your own fear of damnation.

And to make it even more difficult, they do have one thing pretty correct. God's Sovereignity. No free will. They do for the most part, understand this very well. I think that understanding, being true, makes it even more difficult to believe their other understanding is wrong. SO they are really locked in.

I think the easiest way for you, maybe, would be too take the ONE thing they do understand, Gods sovereignity, and combine it with the other truth the other side understands, which is the HEART of God which the other side, the Arminians, really understand.  They really really beleive God is not willing that any should perish, its just that He cannot do anything about free will, and men can free will themselves into eternal perdition.  but at least an entire camp of Christianity can see the heart of God that the calvinists cannot.  tHE SAME HEART THAT WE CAN SEE.

sO THE GREAT IRONY IS, IF YOU TAKE THE HEART VIEW OF GOD THE ARMINIANS HAVE AND COMBINE IT WITH THE UNDERSTANDING OF GODS SOVEREIGNITY THE CALVINISTS HAVE, YOU HAVE WHAT WE BELIEVE!  A God who will be successful in bringing every last one to Himself, and will honor the cross of Christ by giving it its full measure.

God wants you to have FAITH in HIS LOVE that IS IN his heart.  His heart is FULL of tender LOVE. I MEAN TRUST THAT HE IS ACTUALLY LOVE. Your fear is that you are not sure of His Love.  You know it in your mind, you need it revealed to you, deeply,  in your heart.  Your tender heart cries out to know a God who actually, also, has a tender heart.  He does.  You will become more and more convinced of this, as He shows/changes your understanding of His heart, at your deepest heart level.  It is wonderful that you have a tender heart. God will show you that likewise, He too has a tender heart.

Only satan(not God) does NOT have a tender heart.  And for a while, God allows satan to convince men that Gods heart is much more like satans.  What an absolute slander satan is doing, but it is by design. God bless you in this struggle. God, transform our hearts, so we love like you.  Let us so love that the wiles of satan will be of no effect, that he is absolutely unable to make us doubt you, because we know you!

Doug

[Felix]

Hi Hopeful
I thought that was insightfull when Doug said that God has a tender heart, also. That made a big
difference in my faith when I believed that God is love. He really is love.
Felix

[Hopeful]

Hi Hopeful
Thanks for the "inside" look at what it is like to be a Calvanist! Calvinists are very very persistent in their beliefs, I have some good friends who are Cavinists, and I have discussed these horrors with them and they remain unmoved.  It is shocking to witness the very depths of the heartlessness.  If God is really like they say, then who would want to be with him. The only reason they would want to be with him would be to escape the horrific fate of the other unfortunates, which they are learning to harden their hearts against.

Calvinists takes the greatest attribute of God, that He demonstrates His love for us by having His Son to give His life for us, and turns it on its ear, to make God the very opposite of what He was demonstrating, Love.  It is a masterful work of satan. It impugns Gods character more than any other thing, any other religion, that I can think of. yet because it is based on fear, the adherents cannot bear to look at any contrary evidence, because they cannot risk their own souls! They are all too familiar with the horrors of damnation and to look at the belief critically is far too risky!!! Can you imagine the fear that would have to be overcome to leave calvinism? You have to LOVE others more than your own fear of damnation.

And to make it even more difficult, they do have one thing pretty correct. God's Sovereignity. No free will. They do for the most part, understand this very well. I think that understanding, being true, makes it even more difficult to believe their other understanding is wrong. SO they are really locked in.

I think the easiest way for you, maybe, would be too take the ONE thing they do understand, Gods sovereignity, and combine it with the other truth the other side understands, which is the HEART of God which the other side, the Arminians, really understand.  They really really beleive God is not willing that any should perish, its just that He cannot do anything about free will, and men can free will themselves into eternal perdition.  but at least an entire camp of Christianity can see the heart of God that the calvinists cannot.  tHE SAME HEART THAT WE CAN SEE.

sO THE GREAT IRONY IS, IF YOU TAKE THE HEART VIEW OF GOD THE ARMINIANS HAVE AND COMBINE IT WITH THE UNDERSTANDING OF GODS SOVEREIGNITY THE CALVINISTS HAVE, YOU HAVE WHAT WE BELIEVE!  A God who will be successful in bringing every last one to Himself, and will honor the cross of Christ by giving it its full measure.

God wants you to have FAITH in HIS LOVE that IS IN his heart.  His heart is FULL of tender LOVE. I MEAN TRUST THAT HE IS ACTUALLY LOVE. Your fear is that you are not sure of His Love.  You know it in your mind, you need it revealed to you, deeply,  in your heart.  Your tender heart cries out to know a God who actually, also, has a tender heart.  He does.  You will become more and more convinced of this, as He shows/changes your understanding of His heart, at your deepest heart level.  It is wonderful that you have a tender heart. God will show you that likewise, He too has a tender heart.

Only satan(not God) does NOT have a tender heart.  And for a while, God allows satan to convince men that Gods heart is much more like satans.  What an absolute slander satan is doing, but it is by design. God bless you in this struggle. God, transform our hearts, so we love like you.  Let us so love that the wiles of satan will be of no effect, that he is absolutely unable to make us doubt you, because we know you!

Doug

Yes. It's very horrible. When seriously believed and thought about, Calvinism either destroys one's peace or transforms one's heart into solid stone. One can get a look at this, one can read Vincent Cheung. I quoted him in my first post. He is among the most honest of Calvinists, saying the non-elect are predestined by God to sin and then be eternally tormented for sin, all for "God's glory" and the amusement of his "saints". I seriously believe he might be a sociopath, the way he seems so happy about the eternal torment of others. I found myself wondering if he really possessed the Spirit of the One who wept over the destruction of Jerusalem. Of course, the Calvinists I knew would only reprimand me for my "lack of faith". I asked if I was more loving than the One who calls Himself "love" because I would gladly see every man delivered. They said no. I asked why. They said because he loves the elect with an "infinite love", whatever that means. I asked how they knew that they were elect. They seemed quite confident that they had been given a revelation from the Holy Spirit that they were. I asked how they were sure it was the Holy Spirit, and not some demonic delusion sent to goad them into a false rest so God would send them to hell forever, since he (according to them) is very much into that sort of thing. They had no real answer except a great deal of self-confidence.

Still, these doctrines managed to terrorize me to the core of my being, and I still have not fully recovered. I remember wishing, at times, in the depths of my being, that atheists were right and that the universe would someday end in nothingness. That was practically heavenly next to the eternal nightmare prophesied by John Calvin and co. I constantly worry at night that maybe Ray is wrong, that Calvin was right, and that I am one of the non-elect destined for eternal torture. This makes me very, very sad, and extremely fearful.  

[DougE6]

Hello Hopeful
Your name "hopeful" is a prophecy of sorts, I believe, for you!  I grieve for you, that you feel the turmoil that you do, but I think this is a continuing work of the FATHER. Gods work is being done.  I have HOPE for you. Great Hope. I would gather that those feelings are a great reason to seek the comfort, the solace, the peace of knowing Him, your Lord,  in ever deeper ways. Seek the Lord Himself!  Yes, there is great wisdom in Ray's writings, but do not put your faith in whether his understanding is correct (even though I feel it is) but learn to know Jesus for yourself, so that you know that He would not abandon you or anyone to the eternal torture pit. If you know Him, you will know what he would or would not do.  To help in this learn to love your brother, whom you can see, so then you can love Him that you cannot see.

We know that those who have been forgiven much, love much, or those who have been delivered from much, love much. You need to be delivered from much.  If you have a tender heart God will abide there, clearly he is already preparing to do so by making it more tender. Your grieving and fear, can make you intimately acquainted with the depth of the pain and depravities of those who blaspheme, and give you a great sense of love and compassion for its victims. This is good. EVEN MORE it can also make you hold on with great tenacity to the true faith, the true gospel, the truth God, ALL FOUNDED ON LOVE NOT FROM FEAR! Enough with doctrines based on Fear! Away with them!!!!

And finally, FORGIVE those who taught you those evil doctrines. Forgive them totally. Weep for them. God will give mercy to the merciful, He will give grace to the humble, He will give peace and forgiveness to the ones who forgive.  You have been wronged, you need to forgive them, completely.  Loving our enemies, when we do this, that very love, that love from God, makes it impossible to entertain such doctrines in our hearts, the very heart where He dwells.  Thank you for showing your heart.
Doug.

[Hopeful]

Hello Hopeful
Your name "hopeful" is a prophecy of sorts, I believe, for you!  I grieve for you, that you feel the turmoil that you do, but I think this is a continuing work of the FATHER. Gods work is being done.  I have HOPE for you. Great Hope. I would gather that those feelings are a great reason to seek the comfort, the solace, the peace of knowing Him, your Lord,  in ever deeper ways. Seek the Lord Himself!  Yes, there is great wisdom in Ray's writings, but do not put your faith in whether his understanding is correct (even though I feel it is) but learn to know Jesus for yourself, so that you know that He would not abandon you or anyone to the eternal torture pit. If you know Him, you will know what he would or would not do.  To help in this learn to love your brother, whom you can see, so then you can love Him that you cannot see.

We know that those who have been forgiven much, love much, or those who have been delivered from much, love much. You need to be delivered from much.  If you have a tender heart God will abide there, clearly he is already preparing to do so by making it more tender. Your grieving and fear, can make you intimately acquainted with the depth of the pain and depravities of those who blaspheme, and give you a great sense of love and compassion for its victims. This is good. EVEN MORE it can also make you hold on with great tenacity to the true faith, the true gospel, the truth God, ALL FOUNDED ON LOVE NOT FROM FEAR! Enough with doctrines based on Fear! Away with them!!!!

And finally, FORGIVE those who taught you those evil doctrines. Forgive them totally. Weep for them. God will give mercy to the merciful, He will give grace to the humble, He will give peace and forgiveness to the ones who forgive.  You have been wronged, you need to forgive them, completely.  Loving our enemies, when we do this, that very love, that love from God, makes it impossible to entertain such doctrines in our hearts, the very heart where He dwells.  Thank you for showing your heart.
Doug.

This is very difficult for me to say. I worry constantly that maybe, just maybe, my old associates are right after all and their incredibly sadistic God does exist and is setting me up for an eternal torture pit. You have no idea what kinds of fear that creates in me. I've been burned before. I know how it feels. The thought of that happening for all eternity, while Jesus Christ and His saints laugh at my agony forever is *shudder* almost more than I can bear. Disassociating myself from this doctrine is terribly hard. I want UR to be true soooooooooo badly, though. I wish for nothing more in the universe, and yet doubts continually plague me that maybe, just maybe, it is not and God really is that cruel and hateful. 

I really do need your prayers. Please?

[cjwood]

prayers for His will hopeful.  also, if you have not listened to/watched the video of the 3/13/11 bible-study ray did in his home, you will benefit greatly if you do.  especially, the 2nd video.  you will hopefully find great comfort there.  i know i did. and still am.  great, great stuff in all 3 videos. 

be assured hopeful, God IS Love.  God, the Father of Jesus Christ.  and Jesus Christ Himself.  brilliant LOVE. 

claudia

[Hopeful]

prayers for His will hopeful.  also, if you have not listened to/watched the video of the 3/13/11 bible-study ray did in his home, you will benefit greatly if you do.  especially, the 2nd video.  you will hopefully find great comfort there.  i know i did. and still am.  great, great stuff in all 3 videos. 

be assured hopeful, God IS Love.  God, the Father of Jesus Christ.  and Jesus Christ Himself.  brilliant LOVE. 

claudia

Which one is that called? Comfort and assurance of God's love is something I've been lacking for years. I could really use some.

[karenmarie]

I think, from my experiences, that God sometimes changes my heart instantly and completely about an issue, even without my asking - He just does it. This has happened when I've had a dream perhaps, or just a sudden insight that produces a life changing thought.

Other times, I've had to pray and pray, pray with scripture, pray with hope, pray with faith in Him, and then, suddenly one day, He answers and again I'm instantly changed. Answers may just come from Him, or from others, from what I read, find on the internet...

Even so, with God's grace working, my mind and heart changed, my soul relieved, I've found that it still takes time to work it out so that I am fully convinced into my marrow and blood cells, so to speak. It's like my physical body has to take time to absorb the knowledge and every cell has to reproduce itself with this new DNA structure. I'm speaking in spiritual terms, though using the metaphor of body - yet maybe, that is really what is going on with a new truth given to me by God.

I don't know - still trying to figure this out myself, but I think if God has given you insight into His grace and mercy for all people, it still is going to take time to grow out of false thinking that has bound you for years. The time of growth may be quicker than you think, though!

Hope this can help, Hopeful.

Karen

[cjwood]

hopeful just go to the section on the forum menu called "introductions, announcements, and more of ray's teaching" section. then under the child board section, you will see a heading called "ray's videos".  scroll down to the bottom and you will see the ones for the 3/13 bible study. enjoy.

claudia

[Duane]

Hopeful...I wrote my Calvanistic background on one of the posts, so I won't repeat it.
I, too, wrestled a lot with--"What if this new teaching is wrong and I am being led astray like everyone is trying to convince me"!
Then I thought, "Ya know, Duane, you are taking this too personally.  Creation, people, heaven et. al. is GOD's "gig" and HE is going to do EXACTLY as He planned "before the foundation of the earth" and NOTHING I think or believe (or don't) is going to change it!"

We are saved through faith in Jesus Christ and our eternity is secure in HIM whether or NOT
all of our theological "ducks are in order" or not!  We AREN'T going to LOSE our salvation
because we did or didn't believe in HELL or anything else.

I am sure that when we get to heaven and our spiritual eyes are opened, we are going to find that ALL OF US were a little (or a lot) bit right and a little (or a lot) bit wrong about everything!  Why?  Because our human mind can't comprehend the things of God "because we look through a glass darkly" in this life.    So RELAX and LET GOD---.