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Author Topic: "You are not of my sheep"  (Read 4027 times)

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Hopeful

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"You are not of my sheep"
« on: March 09, 2011, 09:22:50 PM »

Hi guys. I'm having some trouble with John 10:26. "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." Christ said earlier that He laid down His life for His "sheep". So if they were not of them, then does that mean they were not covered in the Atonement? Please help me out here. This is making me very nervous as well as very sad.  :'(
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bpenelli

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2011, 09:49:01 PM »

John 10

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
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Romans 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Hopeful

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2011, 09:55:55 PM »

John 10

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

I have read that verse. However, I have always been taught to interpret it as "other sheep" meaning Gentile believers and "not of this sheep pen" meaning not of Israel. I am having a hard time overcoming this interpretation, especially in light of the fact that Christ explicitly said to some that they were not of his sheep. This really worries me and causes me doubts about universal reconciliation. I would like nothing more than to banish these doubts forever, but nothing seems to work. Do you have anything else?
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Arion

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2011, 10:10:48 PM »

We have the many and the few...the called and the choosen.  We find those woven all throughout the scriptures and Ray's teachings.  In this age many are called and few are choosen.  In this age most are not his sheep.  But, we know that this age is not the end of the story although the churches of babylon tell us this.  Those who are not his sheep in this age will become his sheep in the ages to come when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess to the glory of God that Jesus Christ is Lord!!
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bpenelli

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2011, 10:22:07 PM »

These are notes I've gathered from Ray's papers on this topic specifically:

Jesus is the saviour of the WORLD not just believers.

(1 John 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

(John 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

(John 12:47) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

(John 4:42) And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

(1 John 4:14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

(Isaiah 26:9) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

(2 Cor. 5:19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

(1 Timothy 1:15) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

(1 Timothy 4:10-11) 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially [not exclusively] of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

(Romans 8:32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

(1 Corinthians 15:21-22) 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive [The Greek word is zoopoieo, and it means to give life beyond the grasp of any future death]. [Also it says 'in Christ All' not 'all in Christ].

lake4 [And although this particular verse does not say that "all" are now "IN Christ," it does most definitely say that "in Christ," the "ALL" shall be shall be "made alive." "Made alive" does not prove they are "in" Christ or that they are "saved," only that they have been given immortal life. Then comes JUDGMENT. But don’t think that therefore there is no Scripture that says they will eventually "ALL" be "IN" Christ, because there is:

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one ALL [‘things’ is not in original] IN Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even IN HIM" (Eph. 1:10).

Let’s read it again. A verse this important and all encompassing cannot be over emphasized:

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together IN ONE [just as in harvest time] ALL IN Christ, BOTH WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN, AND WHICH ARE ON EARTH; IN HIM."

Christ first raises ALL to immortal life. At a later date He gathers this same ALL into Himself. The "in Christ ALL" (I Cor. 15:22) then becomes the "ALL IN CHRIST" (Eph. 1:10). Every creature in heaven and earth will be ONE IN Christ! I hope you can believe that.

Ver. 23-24: "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming. Then cometh the end…"

The King James starts a new sentence and a new verse with the words, "Then cometh the end…" It should, however, be a continuation of the previous sentence. There are three items in view here, not just two. The Concordant Version has a better rendering of this:

"Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation…"

One, two, three. So there are three orders or classes that synchronize with the three festivals of harvest, and not just two classes that synchronize with Prophet Benny’s first "month" of the year only theory. Notice them:

"The Firstfruit, Christ" (The Passover, The Wave Sheaf).
 
"Thereupon those who are Christ’s" (Pentecost, the Firstfruits)
 
"Thereafter the consummation [the end]" (the final Fall Harvest of Ingathering in the end of the year).
These three match perfectly with the three types of harvest in the Old Testament. So yes indeed, there will be a fall harvest at the end, at the CONSUMMATION.

Now the rest of verse 24:

"…thereafter the consummation when He [Christ] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."]

(Romans 5:18-19) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

(Acts 17:31) Because He has appointed a day, in the which He shall JUDGE THE WORLD in righteousness by THAT MAN [Jesus Christ] Whom He has ordained; whereof He has given ASSURANCE UNTO ALL MEN ['all'--that would be EVERYONE], in that He has raised Him from the dead.

(Isa. 26:9) For when Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth the inhabitants OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

(1 Peter 1:19-20) 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
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Romans 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Hopeful

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2011, 10:24:40 PM »

We have the many and the few...the called and the choosen.  We find those woven all throughout the scriptures and Ray's teachings.  In this age many are called and few are choosen.  In this age most are not his sheep.  But, we know that this age is not the end of the story although the churches of babylon tell us this.  Those who are not his sheep in this age will become his sheep in the ages to come when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess to the glory of God that Jesus Christ is Lord!!

This helps somewhat.  :)

Still, a little more explicitly scriptural declarations would be helpful.

I'm sorry to bother you with my doubting mind, I really am, but years of Calvinist indoctrination have made it very hard for me to see this verse in any other light. :-[
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Revilonivek

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2011, 11:03:16 PM »

Hey, I'm new here... I  can relate to how you feel.  Here's what God says about this.  we all know that when God wills something, it will come to pass.. HE is not willing any of us perish. here's the proof, in the parable here. It shows how God feels about us.

Matthew 18:12-14 (King James Version)

 12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Luke 15:1-16 (King James Version)

Luke 15

notice Luke 15:7

 1Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

 2And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

 3And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

 5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

 6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

 7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

 8Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

 9And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

 10Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Isaiah 45:23 (KJV)
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


hope it helps :)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 12:02:06 AM by Revilonivek »
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Arion

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2011, 10:39:48 AM »

We have the many and the few...the called and the choosen.  We find those woven all throughout the scriptures and Ray's teachings.  In this age many are called and few are choosen.  In this age most are not his sheep.  But, we know that this age is not the end of the story although the churches of babylon tell us this.  Those who are not his sheep in this age will become his sheep in the ages to come when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess to the glory of God that Jesus Christ is Lord!!

This helps somewhat.  :)

Still, a little more explicitly scriptural declarations would be helpful.

I'm sorry to bother you with my doubting mind, I really am, but years of Calvinist indoctrination have made it very hard for me to see this verse in any other light. :-[

You have to work your way through the website Hopeful....it's all in there.  You could start with the seminal 'Lake of Fire' series or even Ray's latest paper on 'Hell is a Christian Hoax'.  Ray breaks all the scriptures down and exposes the false teachings of the various churches and then nails them down and bookends them.  It just takes time and God will bring you along and make all these things clear in time.

Blessings,

Doug
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Duane

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2011, 11:06:35 AM »

Bpenneli... I would personally like to thank you for the inordinate amount of time and effort it took to compile such a complete answer to the question of "universal salvation".
I especially like to ponder:  EXACTLY what does it take to "accept Christ as your Savior"?  Answer:  "Believe on the Lord, Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be (becoming) saved.  A process, initiated BY the individual believer.
Now, my point:  To me, it makes no sense that God would deliver those who died and supposedly went straight to Hell, temporarily out og hell,  have them stand before Him, fulfill the "EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF THE FATHER" and then say "OK, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, now every one can RETURN and spend an eternity suffering in hell"!
I mean:  If the above capitalized declaration of/to God, isn't sufficient for salvation--WHAT IS??  Are they supposed to
read the words off the back of some tract to be officially saved--and it's too late??  I think not.
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mharrell08

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2011, 11:11:25 AM »

This helps somewhat.  :)

Still, a little more explicitly scriptural declarations would be helpful.

I'm sorry to bother you with my doubting mind, I really am, but years of Calvinist indoctrination have made it very hard for me to see this verse in any other light. :-[


One of the threads on our FAQ board is '100 Verses Proclaiming the Salvation of All' - http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11798.0.html
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2011, 01:07:33 PM »



Hope is not in vain.

~ God is not a God that will fail the deepest fears or sufferings. How can He ~ for who has suffered more than His Son Jesus who is risen? Who is less worthy or less sinful than is Jesus Christ the perfect sinless Lamb of God in you? You know He is in you don’t you? For greater is He who is in you....1 John 4:4

Are you less sinful than He who has no sin? That’s absurd. How can anyone be?

If you see yourself less worthy of being saved than Jesus is, who is risen from death, then by implication you accuse God as being a respecter of persons that He is NOT.
God saves the world, the big, bigger and biggest sinners and the small, smaller and smallest of the unworthy.  All will be saved. How many of the all? All of the all. Which part of the all? All. That’s everyone. The Salvation is of all.

God reaches into the darkest souls with His Light, He  reaches into the most secure foundries of prison and sets free, He  gathers the lost out of storms of deceit and He  rescues the frightened from their fears and they are healed.

God is not a God that He should lie. He is savior of all who believe a lie common to all ~ for who has not fallen and who among you dare say Jesus is not risen?

Christ is True to His word and you too shall love Him as He loves you with all His heart. He sets free all for His Love that doesn’t fail.

All who are lost shall be found for indeed, how can any be lost to God who is everywhere, knows everything and sees everyone.~

Arc
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daywalker

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2011, 02:30:49 PM »

Hi guys. I'm having some trouble with John 10:26. "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." Christ said earlier that He laid down His life for His "sheep". So if they were not of them, then does that mean they were not covered in the Atonement? Please help me out here. This is making me very nervous as well as very sad.  :'(

Don't make the common mistake of "adding to the Word of God". This is how you continue to be deceived by false doctrines. If the Scriptures don't SAY it, then don't believe it.

...and please note I said "Scriptures" not "bibles"  ;)
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Marky Mark

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2011, 05:37:01 PM »

Hi guys. I'm having some trouble with John 10:26. "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." Christ said earlier that He laid down His life for His "sheep". So if they were not of them, then does that mean they were not covered in the Atonement? Please help me out here. This is making me very nervous as well as very sad.  :'(

Hello Hopeful.

Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.


Jesus was talking to the Jews who were the unbelieving Jews in these verse,it states nowhere that you will never be of His sheep and that you will burn in a literal hellhole for all eternity.

This is why Christ said that to His own people,the people to whom He first came,the physical Jews.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


 Jesus never intended for the physical Jews of His day to receive Him,this was all part of His plan and purpose to begin with. If they had received Him,they would not have crucified Him, and you and I would not have been given a Savior. It was through His rejection[by the physical Jews] that we were given a Savior,if it is given to us to believe on Him,His Words [now]. All others will believe on Him when He causes them to believe on Him,[later] in the GWT judgement.


1Ti 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially[not only... but especially] of those that believe.

CEV
Joh 1:12  Yet some people accepted him and put their faith in him. So he gave them the right to be the children of God.


The few chosen now,all others later...


Hope this helps some. :)
Peace...Mark


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Revilonivek

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2011, 10:38:18 PM »

Hi guys. I'm having some trouble with John 10:26. "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." Christ said earlier that He laid down His life for His "sheep". So if they were not of them, then does that mean they were not covered in the Atonement? Please help me out here. This is making me very nervous as well as very sad.  :'(


Jesus said:

John 10:16 (Contemporary English Version)

16I have other sheep that are not in this sheep pen. I must bring them together too, when they hear my voice. Then there will be one flock of sheep and one shepherd.

Luke 3:6 (King James Version)

 6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.


that's his plan :) hope this helps?

Denise
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Duane

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2011, 12:21:11 AM »

Marky...what an astute observation.  It never occured to me that if the Jews accepted Jesus they wouldn't have crucified Him and Jesus's purpose would not have been fulfilled. 
I can't believe all I have learned thru the FORUM, that just went by un-noticed thru the years.
Thank you, all.
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Extol

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Re: "You are not of my sheep"
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2011, 02:58:27 PM »

Hi Hopeful,

Have you listened to Ray's Feb. 2008 audio "Foundational Truths"? I would highly recommend it. You can listen to it here http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html , or you can find it on YouTube. Kat also has the written transcript if you would prefer to read it: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.0.html.

I've listened to Foundational Truths at least two dozen times. It's awesome!  8) Ray does a wonderful job explaining the two most important truths of Scripture (God is sovereign, and will save all mankind), and he does it in an easy-to-understand way that makes you say "Wow why didn't I see that before?!" In addition to this, he explains a simple way to detect and refute all of the non-Scriptural fiddle-faddle one hears. I will sum up the strategy for you here:

 He starts with four important verses about the truth of Scripture:

1.God does not lie (Titus 1:2)
2.Thy word is truth (John 17:17)
3.The Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35)
4.All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim. 2:16)

**Always keep these verses in mind when reading the Scriptures**

Now, take a verse that says God will save everyone, such as 1 Timothy 2:4, which says God will have all men be saved, or 2 Peter 3:9, which says God wills that NOBODY perish, and ALL come to repentance. Read them with the four verses above in mind: These Scriptures are truths. They cannot be broken. They are given by inspiration of God, and they must come to pass, or else God is a liar, and we know that GOD DOES NOT LIE.

And if these Scriptures are true---God will have all men be saved, God wills that nobody perish---then there can not be any Scripture that contradicts them. If there is a Scripture that says GOD WILL SAVE ALL, then no verse can possibly say otherwise, even if it might sound like it with our English hells and forevers and eternals. So, when you read a verse like "you are not my sheep", no matter what you think it means when you first read it, ALWAYS REMEMBER: It cannot contradict the hundreds of verses declaring the salvation of all.

And there are no verses that contradict these declarations of God's beautiful plan. Look again at 1 Tim. 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9, and think about what the opposites might be: God will not have all men be saved. God wills that some will perish, and only some will repent. Do we have any verses that say that? NO. Is there a verse that says God will NOT save all? NO. Is there a verse that says God's will will not come to pass? NO! Is there a verse that says Jesus Christ is NOT the Saviour of the world, or is Saviour of only part of the world? NO.

So, which one are you going to believe? The verse that IS there (God will save all) or the one that is NOT there (God will not save all) ? No-brainer!  8) As daywalker said, if the Scriptures don't say it, then don't believe it!
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