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Eternal.
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: Chris R on July 08, 2006, 08:41:18 AM ---Hi,
Maybe this will help
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [john 1:1]
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Since Christ is the word, he must have had a beginning, But the Father had no beginning, he always was.
There is no other way in which man can "see" the Father except through Jesus Christ.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Chris R
--- End quote ---
If the Logos WAS in the beginning with God, then how did he have a beginning? Without him, after all, NOTHING came into existence, not even himself.
QUOTE - "Since Christ is the word, he must have had a beginning, But the Father had no beginning, he always was."
Since Christ is the Logos, it wouldn't make any sense he had a beginning. How can the Father exist without Wisdom? It was by Christ he created; how could he create Christ without Christ himself?
QUOTE - "There is no other way in which man can "see" the Father except through Jesus Christ."
I know.
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote ---Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16).
--- End quote ---
"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand" (Deu 32:39, KJV).
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deu 6:4, KJV).
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Exo 3:14, KJV).
Jesus is Yahweh and Yahweh is God. Besides Yahweh, there is no other.
--- Quote ---And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
--- End quote ---
Exactly. ALL. Now did Jesus come into existence without himself?
--- Quote ---"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
--- End quote ---
Out from the Father and into the world.
--- Quote ---Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
--- End quote ---
Yes.
--- Quote ---And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
--- End quote ---
Where are you getting "all else" from? It says ALL, not all else.
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).
--- Quote ---Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
--- End quote ---
All else? It says ALL.
I'm not saying there is a Trinity, nor am I saying Jesus is not lesser than the Father, having the throne for the mean time. What I am saying, however, is God could not have existed without the Wisdom, because Wisdom is how God operates.
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me" (Isa 43:10, KJV).
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: buddyjc on July 08, 2006, 01:56:50 PM ---Jesus Christ is the name of a MAN who was empowered by the spirit of God. We are all empowered by the spirit of God, and we all came out from God. Christ was foreordained since before the world, and so were we. The 'man' Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and so are we.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Everyone on the planet has the spirit of God, but that spirit does not work in all men the same way.
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Notice that in Colossians 1:16 that there is no mention of the 'sea.' Christ is the 'firstborn' of the creatures in the heavens, and in the earth.
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Remembering that Christ spoke in parables, He is telling us what we must go through to go to the Father. We must endure everything that Christ endured in order to 'go to the Father.' We must suffer and die; be buried; and resurrected.
We all seem to intertwine a carnal view of God, as if Christ 'came out of something' that can be seen or touched. God is spirit and he is everywhere, and in all living things. Christ was not 'omnipresent,' or 'omniscient,' and He was not 'omnipotent.' He was just as reliant on the Father for revelation as we are. When asked when He would return Jesus said that only the Father knew the time of His second coming. The reason Jesus did not know the time, is because God had not revealed this to Him.
We may not fully understand all of this until we ourselves are resurrected with spiritual bodies. Anyway, this is how I see it, and there is always that chance that I am wrong. I am just a man, and subject to the flesh as anyone else.
Brian
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: buddyjc on July 08, 2006, 01:56:50 PM ---Jesus Christ is the name of a MAN who was empowered by the spirit of God. We are all empowered by the spirit of God, and we all came out from God. Christ was foreordained since before the world, and so were we. The 'man' Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and so are we.
--- End quote ---
Jesus was the name of a man who was the Logos made flesh, annointed with the Holy Spirit.
--- Quote ---Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
--- End quote ---
We are led by the Spirit of God, but are not the very Wisdom of God.
--- End quote ---
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote ---Jesus (the son of man after the flesh) had a beginning, it was two thousand years ago. Christ (the son of God after the spirit) had no beginning but came from God the Father. Jesus the Christ had a beginning as 'the messiah'. But Christ as 'the annointing' wisdom of God had no beginning. Hope that makes sense. ???
--- End quote ---
Yes. I agree.
Lightseeker:
nightmare sasuke
Let me see if I can hit this from another angle.
--- Quote ---Since Christ is the word, he must have had a beginning,
--- End quote ---
Rethink this with me. The word (which had no beginning) became Christ/the messiah/the man which was born (became flesh) two thousand years ago. The Greek word Christos/Christ is more than just the NT man, Jesus. You must expand your understanding of the definition of Christ from just 'the man' to anyone annointed. It has a dual definition which is determined by the context of scripture.
1PE 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
Jesus (the man) wasn't in these OT saints...Christ (the spirit) was.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (The Spirit), and the Word (The Spirit) was with God, and the Word (The Spirit) was God.
Scripture says God is a Spirit and yet we know scripture mentions seven spirits 'of' God. The spirit of Christ is 'a spirit' of/from God. But this 'godly Christ spirit' is merely an 'attribute spirit'...and God is still greater than the sum of all 'His spirits'. And we also know Jesus had flesh and blood until His crucifixion...but afterward He was not only a "ghost" but also "flesh and bone" and yet "God is a Spirit".
JOH 1:14 And the Word (The Spirit) was made flesh (Jesus), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
--- Quote ---If the Logos WAS in the beginning with God, then how did he have a beginning? Without him, after all, NOTHING came into existence, not even himself.
--- End quote ---
The logos wasn't 'the he'...the he was 'the logos manifested' at the birth of the man Jesus who had 'the annointing of Christ spirit' in Him. You seem to be saying the Logos (the spirit) had a beginning because Jesus had a beginning. But the scripture is saying the word (spirit) became flesh. The question is when did the spirit become flesh? Isn't the answer...when Jesus was born?
--- Quote ---"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deu 6:4, KJV).
--- End quote ---
This says that "GOD IS ONE" not "the Lord is one". I can have many Lords in my life but eventually Jesus will be the only 'one Lord' I'm totally submitted to because He is 'of God' and all my other Lords aren't.
--- Quote ---Jesus is Yahweh and Yahweh is God. Besides Yahweh, there is no other.
--- End quote ---
I'm on a limb here because I don't think Jesus is the OT Yahweh. He isn't born yet. But the Christ spirit was in the OT and also in people. But when scripture says "The LORD said unto my Lord"....well how many Lord Gods are there?
Hope this helps.
Gotta go the lord wants me to help do something for her. ;D
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