Can't?

[love_magnified]

Ray,
> I am disapointed that you have a very strong theory about hell or some
> terms hades and the lake of fire. If you believe god will save everyone you
> missed the boat.God wants to save all people but he know he can't thats why
> he created a choice(free will). You tell every one their is no torment but
> it is stated in the bible with the lake of fire. rev 20:10 and rev. 20:15.
> Another issue I have is and with most christians is that you are following
> the doctrine of paul and not what god wants. Take a look at rev. 2:2 what do
> you think that John was writing about. The disciples did not want paul
> around.The people he was preaching to did want him
> around.(galatians,ephesians) Paul also made himself(maybe with the help of
> luke) a disciple teaching that you did not need to follow the old covenant.
> But Jesus made it clear to follow his commandments and if jesus is also God
> than ten commandments still apply and so does jews holy days. But let me
> guess paul said it was ok to practice pagan worship like christmas and
> easter. Well looking forward to your email.
>
> mike


Sorry, Mike, your unscriptural cockamamie does not deserve an answer.

Ray

I suggest mike stand in the center of his living room, put his hands to his side and spin around in a circle over and over again. At the same time say, "God can't. God can't. God can't. God can't. God can't. God can't." until he is blue in the face. There's your orthodox doctrine.

[all4love]

 

I Agree!!

[Beloved]

Isn't it amazing how illogical and blind an argument some folks will presnt when defending their man made beliefs       . God can't... That statement is so ludicrous and moronic



The whole thing about Paul and John has been debated for centureies . This man dose not understand what Jesus was really trying spiritually to show the apostels in the Gospels. After pentecost as each matured and began to write, each wrote as a member of the body and from a different perspective but they were still all one.

Peter was in agreement with everyone (that would also include John) and he himself writes and warns everyone that there will be such people as this man who will not be able to see and understand.

(2Pe 3:15 KJVR) 
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

(2Pe 3:16 KJVR) 
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

(2Pe 3:17 KJVR)  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

John on the other hand because he lived so long. (the avg life span at that time was 40 so he was considered one old dude ) knew he was writing the Last chapter. He was the last person to be personally instructed by Christ. He was given this vision to write down so it could be read. He was looking at the Big Picture.  I do not see any scripture that contradicts what Paul has written.

I also did not see where Paul said it was okay to celebrate christmas  or easter.  First of all Christmas as a holiday did not exist until after Constantine 300 AD).  No where does Paul tell anyone to celebrate Easter or any pagan  holiday. Perhaps this man is referring to Passover; one thing we do know is that Paul for sure spoke time and again against jewish ritualism and he was paid with repeated brutality for this. We know that the jewish festivals are types of spiritual manifestations of Christ and God's plan.

When I read these passage I see that Paul meant that things such as easter and christmas were carnal.    If carnal then all flesh is NOTHING. We are to be walk in Spirit and not in flesh . We are in the world but not of the Wold. He told the samarian woman that we would worship in truth and spirit and he meant it. It is the only foolishness of the world that continues to revel and celebrates these holidays.


Beloved

[gmik]

Good Stuff.  Maybe Ray should stand in a circle round and round...Its not me its them, its not me its them its not me its them....I don't know why he continues to bother with those e mails.
but beloved, lm, and all4love, i liked the responses.

It wasn't so long ago that I believed as Mike did! We need to pray for him and love him and hope he finds the truth as we did.  Remember it was God who dragged us, not we ourselves.

[jerry]

I think one day God will open mikes eyes.like he did mine.

[YellowStone]

I can't say much but our God and Father can do anything. Has anyone studied a single cell? Saving everyone because he wills it HAS to be easier than creating a microscopic cell, the very living cell that is in one form or another, the building blocks of every living creature (plant, animal, bacteria etc) alive on earth.

If anyone is interested please check out the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28biology%29

Moderators, I hope the inclusion of this url is not frowned up.

If so, then please remove it.

Our God is Awesome

[prarrydog]

I think one day God will open mikes eyes.like he did mine.

  Jerry,

  One day God will open everyone's eyes   

God be with you

[jerry]

amen what a wonderful day it will be, I cant wait for the day that God opens my eyes completly,we all have a little vision problem that needs some fixing but  thanks be to God some of us have our eyes open though we can only see well enough to keep from falling in the ditch ...........Jerry

[mongoose]

Yellowstone,
   I was interested to see you refer to the cell url in response to this thread.  You are so correct and the link doesn't even touch on the half of it.  I am one of those, dare I say it, scientists that are such a bad name to a lot of people who believe in God .  I am always amused when people find out what I do and starting asking questions...I have this disease, what causes it....as if science has the answers.  Don't get me wrong, I am very interested in science and do this for a living and we have learned a lot about how the body works in the last 100 years, but the complexity of such a simple thing as a cell.  The one thing that people who are studying science seem to struggle with the most as they get further into things is how much we don't know.  There are no answers to the questions they have, we don't even know the questions and most answers we do have are partial and have only led to hundreds of additional questions.  It frightens almost everyone I've seen come through.  I try to tell people as gently as I can that we just don't know the anwers to most of their questions and let them know what they dont' seem to understand...how incredibly complex a single cell is..let alone an entire body.  I have met some really brilliant people (which I am definitely not!) and none of them can understand either.  I have recently come to the conclusion that the human mind is not capable of understanding, of processing, the complexitites of even one single type of cell.  How are we to understand the human body then?

  What gets me is how very beautiful and complex and amazing life is.  When I get scared that there is no God, no purpose (working with proselytizing athiests is a real struggle for me), I think about this....how complex life is.  How could this result from mutation?  If a principal of biology is that life can only come from life, where did the first life come from?  The contradictions of that are enough to give me pause.  The improbability of so many things going right even for just enough time for me to type this is unbelievable.  And yet we live for years....it has to be a miracle that anything ever works.  Also, with things made by man, it seems to me that the closer you get, the more detail you look in, the more imperfections are revealed.  Something that is really beautiful that is made by man from a distance is often scarred and imperfect when viewed magnified.  But the things God made, they only seem to get more beautiful the closer in you look.  Erg, sorry if this is off topic.  I can't see God as not being capable of anything when I think about the incredible detail and perfection of what He made.

[YellowStone]

Mongoose, what a wonderful written post.

I'm not so sure that this discussion is totally off topic, as it relates very well with the following:

Rom 1:20

• For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Science is the ability to produce solutions in some problem domain. Who says that it cannot prove intelligent design, ie. our creator.

God has given us so much to appreciate if only we have the eyes to see.

Great Post!

Darren

[rvhill]

Not that I any longer universalism, but how does anyone who believe in hell or believe people can go to a place called hell deal with this vers.
Matthew 5:19:
19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

So right now I am just putting my faith in Jesus. He is the way and only way. From now on I only wish to care about the earthly things, I have a hope of understanding.

Luke 10:27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' [ Deut. 6:5] ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' [ Lev. 19:18] "

Jesus basic doctrine as stated in Mat 5 and Luke 6, and the heavenly treasures, patience, understanding,  compassion, and est. I really do not even know if I can acquire these things, but I wish to try.

[mongoose]

rvhill,  You can't "acquire" these things but God can give them to you and He will, in His own time though.  Learning to wait on God may be the hardest lesson I've been getting.  I would've once told you it would be absolutely impossible for anyone, even God, to teach me to be patient or to forgive some people.  I was wrong!!!    I can't say I qualify as patient or am that good at loving my neighbor now but I am sure a whole lot more patient than I once was and when someone does something that would've made me mad before, I find myself stopping to think.  Me stopping to think?  That was unheard of before.  I was a hot-tempered impatient person who just loved to fight (physically, verbally, however possible).  For sure, it has taken a long long time though and I expect it'll continue to take even longer.  People who believe in hell must surely be blinded as the scriptures say, otherwise they could see what God plainly says.  Even without knowing about mistranslations and wrong words and other things, it seems plain (only because God made it so for me) that He is going to save all.  Remember that nothing can ever separate you from God's love.  You are His no matter what my friend.

[rvhill]

rvhill,  You can't "acquire" these things but God can give them to you and He will, in His own time though.  Learning to wait on God may be the hardest lesson I've been getting.  I would've once told you it would be absolutely impossible for anyone, even God, to teach me to be patient or to forgive some people.  I was wrong!!!    I can't say I qualify as patient or am that good at loving my neighbor now but I am sure a whole lot more patient than I once was and when someone does something that would've made me mad before, I find myself stopping to think.  Me stopping to think?  That was unheard of before.  I was a hot-tempered impatient person who just loved to fight (physically, verbally, however possible).  For sure, it has taken a long long time though and I expect it'll continue to take even longer.  People who believe in hell must surely be blinded as the scriptures say, otherwise they could see what God plainly says.  Even without knowing about mistranslations and wrong words and other things, it seems plain (only because God made it so for me) that He is going to save all.  Remember that nothing can ever separate you from God's love.  You are His no matter what my friend.

I don't disagree that these things come only from God, but as Jame said,
James 2:26 For as the body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


If you do not long for these things. If you do not love these things. If you do not strive for these things. If you do not pray for these things, then what good is your faith? If you love God, then you love the things of God. If you do not love the things of God, then you do not love God. This way Paul says,


Romans 7:15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

[YellowStone]

This is an interesting concept RVHill

Are you suggesting that Paul did not love God?

That each one of us falls short of what even we imagine is an expectation of God is a given, but the amazing thing is that God's love is unconditional.

I have always thought of James verse to mean it is better to say nothing and do a little than say a lot and do nothing. The cool thing about works is they are measured from the heart, and only God can do that.

I think I know exactly how Paul felt. 

Darren

[YellowStone]

rvhill,  You can't "acquire" these things but God can give them to you and He will, in His own time though.  Learning to wait on God may be the hardest lesson I've been getting.  I would've once told you it would be absolutely impossible for anyone, even God, to teach me to be patient or to forgive some people.  I was wrong!!!    I can't say I qualify as patient or am that good at loving my neighbor now but I am sure a whole lot more patient than I once was and when someone does something that would've made me mad before, I find myself stopping to think.  Me stopping to think?  That was unheard of before.  I was a hot-tempered impatient person who just loved to fight (physically, verbally, however possible).  For sure, it has taken a long long time though and I expect it'll continue to take even longer.  People who believe in hell must surely be blinded as the scriptures say, otherwise they could see what God plainly says.  Even without knowing about mistranslations and wrong words and other things, it seems plain (only because God made it so for me) that He is going to save all.  Remember that nothing can ever separate you from God's love.  You are His no matter what my friend.

What a wonderful and thought provoking post Mongoose. I especially liked your point about mistranslations, etc. They cannot hide Gods love, pure and simple. That God has a plan for me is certain, what that plan is unknown. I simply have to give up second guessing. God's Love is so simple and pure, it's no wonder it's over looked.

God is wonderful and he loves us all.

Darren

[mongoose]

rvhhill,  It seems that the love of God, wanting to do good...all of that also comes from God.  Like God doesn't tell you to go start doing good without first putting the desire in you.  Feeling these things was, for me, a first step I think.  Not that I do a lot of good now either but I am starting to see a progression, which gives me hope.  He is faithful to His promises and He will lead you the rest of the way.  I love scripture you had below (along with the surrounding verses):

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.  I do not understand what I do.  For what I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate I do.  And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.  As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.  I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.  For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.  For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do----this I keep on doing.  Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.  So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.  For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.  What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?  Thanks be to God---through Jesus Christ our Lord!  So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.  Romans 7:14-25

I find this comforting.  Paul spoke of himself as a work in progress.  I find it so comforting that he felt this way.  We are not alone and all struggle with similar things, even the apostles.....amazing!

[jenny06]

My husband has a problem with there being no hell.  He also has difficulty believing that all will be saved. In light of the fact that all will acknowledge Him in due course and that all can be acccomplished through Christ (I find it ironic that the word "can" implies ability and says a lot all in itself), I think it should be obvious. But the things hidden in the open are usually less obvious, right? He was raised in Catholocism and has the doctrine deeply ingrained.  I was not raised in it, though my siblings went through the whole nine yards. He has an issue with not having punishment as a result of his failure to follow God's will.  I told him that it should be enough for us to realize that God's will is what is right for us and that we should want to please Him just as we would want to please our own physical parents. He had fallen away from church before I met him. When I went through adult catechism I learned some of the lies, like how they split one of the ten commandments in two to delete the one and he had a difficult time with that.  Anyhow, every move in each different direction seemed to fall to me. I have had difficulty remaining faithful to any one church. My whole walk in faith has proven to be a string of circumstances that could not be coinsidence. While he wanted to take root in one denomination, I have difficutly trusting any man and body of men (human) and their doctrine. I know that God led me to BT. Anyone with advice???  He'll spend hours playing on the net or checking on stock, but to get him to come here or BTs to read is proving difficult. I know that he could find edification at this forum.  He is running short on excuses for not opening his own account at this forum. 
                                                                             

[chumkin]

My husband has a problem with there being no hell.  He also has difficulty believing that all will be saved. In light of the fact that all will acknowledge Him in due course and that all can be acccomplished through Christ (I find it ironic that the word "can" implies ability and says a lot all in itself), I think it should be obvious. But the things hidden in the open are usually less obvious, right? He was raised in Catholocism and has the doctrine deeply ingrained.  I was not raised in it, though my siblings went through the whole nine yards. He has an issue with not having punishment as a result of his failure to follow God's will.  I told him that it should be enough for us to realize that God's will is what is right for us and that we should want to please Him just as we would want to please our own physical parents. He had fallen away from church before I met him. When I went through adult catechism I learned some of the lies, like how they split one of the ten commandments in two to delete the one and he had a difficult time with that.  Anyhow, every move in each different direction seemed to fall to me. I have had difficulty remaining faithful to any one church. My whole walk in faith has proven to be a string of circumstances that could not be coinsidence. While he wanted to take root in one denomination, I have difficutly trusting any man and body of men (human) and their doctrine. I know that God led me to BT. Anyone with advice???  He'll spend hours playing on the net or checking on stock, but to get him to come here or BTs to read is proving difficult. I know that he could find edification at this forum.  He is running short on excuses for not opening his own account at this forum. 
                                                                             

try reverse phsycology

[hillsbororiver]

My husband has a problem with there being no hell.  He also has difficulty believing that all will be saved. In light of the fact that all will acknowledge Him in due course and that all can be acccomplished through Christ (I find it ironic that the word "can" implies ability and says a lot all in itself), I think it should be obvious. But the things hidden in the open are usually less obvious, right? He was raised in Catholocism and has the doctrine deeply ingrained.  I was not raised in it, though my siblings went through the whole nine yards. He has an issue with not having punishment as a result of his failure to follow God's will.  I told him that it should be enough for us to realize that God's will is what is right for us and that we should want to please Him just as we would want to please our own physical parents. He had fallen away from church before I met him. When I went through adult catechism I learned some of the lies, like how they split one of the ten commandments in two to delete the one and he had a difficult time with that.  Anyhow, every move in each different direction seemed to fall to me. I have had difficulty remaining faithful to any one church. My whole walk in faith has proven to be a string of circumstances that could not be coinsidence. While he wanted to take root in one denomination, I have difficutly trusting any man and body of men (human) and their doctrine. I know that God led me to BT. Anyone with advice???  He'll spend hours playing on the net or checking on stock, but to get him to come here or BTs to read is proving difficult. I know that he could find edification at this forum.  He is running short on excuses for not opening his own account at this forum. 
                                                                             

Hi Jen,

Where did your husband ever get the idea that the Lord does not chastise or punish His children? Is God limited to giving a reward or torturing through infinity? Who has put these limitations on Him when scripture states just the opposite? We both know it is man who attempts to limit the One who has no limitations.

Are we this bound and gagged with our own children? Are we as parents limited only to either rewarding them or beating the snot out of them for the rest of their natural life? Of course not, we patiently instruct them and when some sort of punishment is necessary to get their attention it is done out of love and to correct not torment to the point of insanity. Do we as men have a purer more compassionate love than our Creator?

The Lake of Fire series is long and it is thorough but you should pick out some parts that you feel might interest your husband, print them out and present them to him, spoon feed him so to speak. 

My prayers are with you both,

Joe  

[hillsbororiver]

Bobby,

Missed your post or got beat to the punch by you once again

Joe