Free will

[patmokgoko]

One question I failed to answer:- (If ) God is in total control, my life has been predestined, according to His foreknowledge,God is Sovereign,How can I sin VOLUNTARILY, how can i voluntarily go against the will/intentions of God?Since God can not make anyone sin but He fore knew that they would sin, how can we say thier steps/doings were not ordered of the Lord.Just how do I sin voluntarily and not freely? Please help, i am missing something.

[GaryK]

"WHO HAS RESISTED GOD'S WILL?"

Good reading here:  http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

[Kat]

Hi Pat,

Here are a few emails that should help.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ------------------------------

It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=b3h9r4nj8rlko4kkv320eoqea3&/topic,7895.0.html ---

We do have a will, but it is not "FREE" to original anything that does not have a cause.  Most people who argue that we have free will have not a clue as to what free will is. "Free will" is not "will."  "Free choice" is not "choice."  All of our choices have a cause, even if we don't know what it was, therefore no choice that is made is "free" to not have been made.  Why are all of these commandments and instruction for man to follow in the Scriptures if man DOES HAVE A FREE WILL?  The penalties for not keeping commandments is a CAUSE for keeping it. Something that "CAUSES" you to keep a commandment, is NOT "FREE" TO NOT KEEP IT.  I know, it takes more than a few hundred hours of meditation to understand it properly.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html -----------------------------------------

God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones:  "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"  (Isa. 55:8-9).

Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer.  Why then do you and most of the world have a problem with God and His operation of things, and I don't?  Why do you use the "CONTRADICTION" and I don't.  Is there any way to bridge this dichotomy of God's thoughts and our thoughts?  Yes there is:  "Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..."  (Phil. 2:5).

Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God.  They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED"  (I Cor. 2:14).

As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higther powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL.  When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!

Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will."  And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions.  But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN.  He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.

I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN.  God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.

Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL."  Oh really?  And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires?  NO IT CAN'T.  And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine.  The natural mind is totally incapable of  loving God:  "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).

It all starts with God, not with us:  "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US"  (I John 4:19).

God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first;  he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments;  he cannot please God;  he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9).  And therefore God's ways will justify His means.  The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).

And so here is the answer to your question:

BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.

AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.

And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grand to you a "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=b3h9r4nj8rlko4kkv320eoqea3&/topic,6100.0.html ---

Yes, this is God's creation, God's Universe. He made it and all that in it is. He also made humanity, and He made them spiritual weak, not spiritually strong, so when confronted with a temptation to SIN, humanity SINS. He sins VOLUNTARILY FROM HIS PERVERTED HEART.  No one, not even God FORCES HIM TO SIN AGAINST HIS WILL.  It is your WILL TO SIN whether you feel good or bad about it or the results.  Man has a will, this has never been denied. But.......BUT, man's will is not free from causality.  The lust of the flesh and the lest of the eyes and the pride of life are SIN  (I John 2:15-16). Yet men DESIRE AND WILL from the HEART to do these sinful things. For this he must be JUDGED.  It matter not whether he could have avoided the circumstances and lust that caused him to sin. The fact is that he did si n, and he desired to sin FROM HIS HEART. This is the thing that must be CHANGED--his corrupt heart.  And it is not a sin on God's part for making humanity so spiritually weak that they would sin and also DESIRE FROM THEIR HEART to sin. It is a way and means to a greater good. God is "makING humanity in HIS SPIRITUAL IMAGE, and the sins and foolishness of humanity are a part of the means to that grant design and goal.

True, most of humanity faults God for this grand plan and purpose, but that attitude will also be judged and corrected in time.

God be with you,
Ray

[patmokgoko]

Believe you me , I understand most of the things you teach and love them, I also preach them to my members and they enjoy, but if man is caused to make his choices how can we say this is a voluntary act on the part of man.Also if I volunteer is it possible that I can refuse/reject/unavailing  to volunteer, I fail to see how Samson volunteered to marry a Phillistine woman,or how Joseph's brothers volunteered to hate their brother(they volunteered with a little outside influence).Man has no free will, this I have been preaching before I even knew your website.Man is and has always been subject to the higher powers that be,cant agree with you more.
Usually when confronted by questions such as "does God force evil men to rape little children"? I answer by saying these men are vessels of dishonour, just as a leopard cant change it's spots they also cant be instruments of honour, for this cause they were born.Believe me we are in the same boat,it's just this one loose nut,please help , how do i interpret 2 Peter 2:20 and Hebrew 10:26.I read your teachings every second day,repeating some more than 15 times in the process,I am meditating day and night "Does God have the  right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?the Lord bless you.i love you all.

[Dave in Tenn]

The choices men make are all caused, and not free from cause.  This you understand.  The choices men make are the result of the desires of his heart.  The heart itself (which does the desiring) also comes from Sovereign God.  He creates mankind with a heart too weak to 'not sin', and he puts all the oppurtunity and temptation necessary into place for man to follow his 'natural' inclinations.

It is God's will that man fail, sin, fall short for a season--so that He can show mercy to us, humble us, and so that we will have an experience of evil necessary to be like Him.  This is what He wants, so of course He has the right to make (create) man subject to the (caused) desires of their own (His ongoing Creation) heart.  

Man resists God's will because his heart is weak and he is blind and rebellious, but no man resists His purpose.  For man to resist God's will IS part of the purpose of God.  His purpose is to mold man into His Spiritual image.  He creates and brings about everything (good and evil) that needs to happen for that.  Included in this is forgiveness, repentance, cleansing, faith and humility for a few now, and all others later.  He sees the END from the beginning.  We don't, until He shows us a glimpse.

You are on the right track with repeated reading and meditation.  God be with you.  

[Kat]

Hi Patmokgoko,

I am working on a transcript of an older Bible study (Aug.08) on free will that I just found and had forgot was there. Here is the first section of the Bible study, that I hope to have completely ready by tomorrow and it should help you a great deal.


                                              FREE WILL

This really is an amazing concept. It's been argued by theologians and philosophers for thousands of years, I mean going back further than the Christians faith; Plato, Aristotle
they all dealt with this thing of free will and so on.

Why do you think it is such a hard concept for people to understand? Why can't they get it? [Comment: We make our own choices all day long.] Okay, so you think because it feels like we have free will? [Yes.] We don't actually feel something hindering us, nobody actually twist our arm to make a decision, I mean we just kind of do it spontaneously. Therefore we think nothing caused it. We may even think something may of influenced it, you know, but something actually causes it. Nothing made you think what you thought and nothing made you do what you did. But of course it did.

We have to be careful about words, because words can make us very prejudice. We can say for example, someone is inspired to write a beautiful song. They were inspired, right? Or we could say somebody forced them to write a song, forced them. Well that's not the same connotation is it. Being inspired and being forced. But the truth of the matter is they both cause the song to be written, didn't they. Yeah. So they are both a cause.

So the word cause is not good or evil, I mean it's just what it is. It can cause something happy, it can cause something sad. I mean the word 'cause' itself has no moral bias to it. So that's true, people don't feel like they are being coerced, therefore they think they have free will. But they don't know what it is.

They don't know what the word 'free' means, if you have 'free' choice. Free means there's not some influence internally, externally or any other way, causing you - forcing you - making you to make the choice. See, that's what free is. Free from causality, nothing causes you to do what you do. People think, 'well yes that's the way it is, I make all of my choices and decisions, I think what I think, I go where I want to go and nothing causes me, makes me or forces me to.'

Well maybe nothing forces you to, because then you would be more aware of it. But if something just influences you, then you are not so aware of it. Of course something influences everything you do and that's the CAUSE.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[daywalker]

One question I failed to answer:- (If ) God is in total control, my life has been predestined, according to His foreknowledge,God is Sovereign,How can I sin VOLUNTARILY, how can i voluntarily go against the will/intentions of God?Since God can not make anyone sin but He fore knew that they would sin, how can we say thier steps/doings were not ordered of the Lord.Just how do I sin voluntarily and not freely? Please help, i am missing something.

It takes time (a lot of it) to fully digest this idea of no free will. Probably most of us will spend the rest of our lives pondering different aspects of it. Voluntarily and freely are not the same thing. Voluntarily essentially means "willingly"; i.e. no one needs to force a man to lust over a woman. We, men, naturally have a hard time taking our eyes off a pretty young girl in a mini skirt. No one forces us to look. God certainly doesn't force us to look. But, we don't do it "freely"; i.e. without cause. The pretty young girl and the mini skirt she is wearing are two obvious "causes" or "reasons". Another would be "testosterone". This, along with the weather effecting ( or causing ) us to decide what clothes to wear, are the two main examples I use as proof that man doesn't have free will.

We were "made subject to futility (failure)... not willingly" Romans 8. There's no getting around that. We cannot live perfect lives no matter how hard we try and how badly we desire to. Perhaps if we "did" have free will, we could live perfect lives. Yet, the fact that "all have sinned" is clear evidence that we don't have "free" will. God made us this way, and only God can change us and save (heal) us from our futile nature... And He will! That's the Good News.

Hope this helps.

[G. Driggs]

I think you got some really good explainations Patmokgoko. Just to add something I never forgot and something that helped me understand a little better was where Ray used an analogy found here.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

"God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts..." God doesn't have to make people sin, they volunteer, they're sinning machines. I've said so many times mankind is SINNING MACHINES!

I think it was Hosea Ballou, Pastor of the Universalist Church and society of Rockberry, and a writer back in 1700s or some time ago. But I think it was Hosea Ballou who came up with the analogy and it's a very fine analogy. He said God is Like the rays of the sun and Jesus is, like I mentioned yesterday, that Jesus is the Son of God. But not only the S-o-n, but the S-u-n of God, the brightness of the sun, you see. So we liken God to the rays of the sun, this bright radiant warmth that gives light and heat and causes things to grow and all these wonderful things from the rays of the sun.

But ironically in the evening, when the sun goes down it gets colder and towards morning it gets damp. There's often times dew on the grass, wet, damp and cold. Aha, I think I have God figured out now. When the sun is up, it's not damp, it's not wet, it's not cold, it's not dark. When the sun goes down it's cold, damp and dark. Therefore the sun is the cause of dampness, cold and darkness. How do you like that?  Because when the sun's up you don't have those things, and when the sun goes down you have them. Therefore this darkness is caused by the sun. No, that's wrong. That's the way some people understand theology. 

It's when the sun is gone the automatic results is, it's dark, cold and damp. The sun didn't cause it. It's when the sun comes up that the sun takes it away. It's not when the sun goes down it causes it to come. It always been there, it's the sun that takes it away, it's not the sun causes it to come and that's the way God is.

When God removes His beams of light from mankind they become cold and damp and dark. Is that hard to understand? It's automatic, God does not have to supernaturally make it dark on one side of the earth when the sun is on the other side. God doesn't have to do that it's automatic.

God doesn't have to force anybody to sin, it's automatic. Yes God brings about the circumstances, "Wherefore God gave them up..." (Rom. 1:26). Yes He did, He's behind it. But He did it through the lusts of their own hearts. He didn't force anybody to do anything.
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It's just automatic. A weak heart combined with the right circumstances ( or cause) is all it takes. Sometimes the cause can be someone might have been raised that way.

So it takes the power of God to make us stop sinning. The want to sin is already there. The circumstances are already there, which could be us living in this present wicked age. Sin begets more sin.

You asked if it was possible to not volunteer to do evil. Not without Jesus.

Jer 13:23  Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Volunteering to sin and the circumstances (whatever they may be) that do the causing are two different things. If we sin it's because we were tempted by our own lusts and weak hearts, all we needed was an excuse. The want to sin was/is always there until Jesus takes it out of us.

G.Driggs