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Author Topic: FREE WILL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Biblestudy Aug. 2008  (Read 6033 times)

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Kat

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Aug. 2008 Bible study

                                                    FREE WILL

This really is an amazing concept. Itís been argued by theologians and philosophers for thousands of years. I mean going back further than the Christians faith; Plato, Aristotle - they all dealt with this thing of free will and so on.

Why do you think it is such a hard concept for people to understand? Why canít they get it? [Comment: We make our own choices all day long.] Okay, so you think because it feels like we have free will? [Yes.] We donít actually feel something hindering us, nobody actually twist our arm to make a decision. I mean we just kind of do it spontaneously, therefore we think nothing caused it. We may even think something may of influenced it, you know. But something actually causes it. Nothing made you think what you thought? Nothing made you do what you did? But of course it did.

We have to be careful about words, because words can make us very prejudice. We can say for example, someone is inspired to write a beautiful song. They were inspired, right? Or we could say somebody forced them to write a songÖ forced them. Well thatís not the same connotation is it, being inspired and being forced? But the truth of the matter is they both cause the song to be written, didnít they? Yeah. So they are both a cause.

So the word 'cause' is not good or evil, I mean itís just what it is. It can cause something happy, it can cause something sad. I mean the word Ďcauseí itself has no moral bias to it. So thatís true, people donít feel like they are being coerced, therefore they think they have free will. But they donít know what it is.

They donít know what the word Ďfreeí means, if you have Ďfreeí choice. Free means thereís not some influence internally, externally or any other way causing you - forcing you - making you to make the choice. See, thatís what free is. Free from causality, nothing causes you to do what you do. People think, Ďwell yes thatís the way it is, I make all of my choices and decisions, I think what I think, I go where I want to go and nothing causes me, makes me or forces me to.í

Well maybe nothing forces you to, because then you would be more aware of it. But if something just influences you, then you are not so aware of it. Of course something influences everything you do and thatís the CAUSE.

So anything that is caused to happen, cannot NOT happen. Once itís caused to happen it cannot be changed. Like Iíve said so many times, 'you canít un-ring a bell.' Once itís rung, itís ringing, itís over. You canít take the ring back, itís too late. So if something is caused, you cannot prevent it.

But is everything caused? Well, people want to have it both ways. People like the idea that they donít have to do things according to how either society, the government, the laws of nature or the environment make you do things. They donít like that idea. It doesnít matter if you like it or not, itís true.

Now I get a lot of emails and I got two this week and I think both on the same day. One was antagonistic about free will and the other one was not. He agreed that it was probably true, he just doesnít get it, he just doesnít understand it.

The Scripture say that we by nature were children of wrath. That means anger, contentious and so on.

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Not children of Godís wrathÖ our own wrath. We are the wrathful ones.


                                     FREE WILL IS LAWLESS

We read in Romans 8 that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God and itís not, subject to the law of God.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The whole concept of free will is lawless. Because if it was lawful then whatever we do or think or say, there would be a regulator and it would not be free any more. So the whole concept is lawless.

We know that everything in nature operates by laws, if it didnít scientists would have no idea whatís going on. We would have never learned to build airplanes and stuff like that or the video camera. So many laws come into practice. But free will is lawless, because if thereís laws regulating your thinking itís no longer free. So itís a contradiction.


                                        FOREKNOWLEDGE

Now there is one thing thatís makes free will a total impossibility - one thing. One thing just demolishes it. What is that? [Comment: The sovereignty of God.] Yeah His sovereignty, but a little more specifically is the foreknowledge of God. The foreknowledge of God wipes out free will, because if God knows what will happen, it canít be otherwise.

If the future cannot be but one way, there is no freedom of choice or freedom of will. It must be the way that God knows it will turn out. It must be!

This is the hard thing for people to get. Iíve read pages and pages and pages from philosophers and theologians and they want to have it both ways. They say, Ďyes it does kind of appear that way. If God knows what will happen, then itís not likely that it could be another way, because that would make His foreknowledge false.í And if He prophesied what will happen it would also make Him what? [Comment: A liar.] Would make Him a lair, exactly. Not only make Him ignorant, but it would make Him a liar as well.

So foreknowledge is what demolishes free will. You cannot have the future predicted and yet have freedom of choices that can make it come out totally different. Some people think, Ďwell God only deals with big things, little things you knowÖí No, He deal with little things.

You all heard the story about the general? Heís in the army. His horse came out of a horseshoe, therefore horseshoe got loose and the shoe fell off. Because the shoe fell off, he fell off the horse, because it stumbled. So because he fell off the horse he wasnít in a position of leadership where he should have been. Therefore they lost that battle that he was in charge of. Because they lost that battle, they lost the war.

My goodness, now if they lost the war, guess what? Wars are usually fought between nations, so that nail changed the history of the world. One nail changed the history of the world. If one nail can change the history of the world, how in the world can six billion people be at liberty to make choices contradictory to the way God know things will turn out?


                 FREE CHOICE CONTRADICTS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

Now you can believe in choice if you want to, but you canít believe in free choice and a sovereign all knowing God. You can not, the two are totally contradictory. You just have to get that. Where are you going to stand on this issue? Is there a God or isnít there?

If there isnít then you can happily go on your way, thinking you have free will and we wonít fault you for it. But if you believe there is a God, you cannot continue on with this nonsense that you have a free will that circumstances donít make you do or change or become or say or whatever what you do. You can not.

People though, they are so carnal, so vain, they wonít even think about it long enough to see that there is no alterative. There is no alterative! The arguments are so pathetic, Iíve heard theologians or read them mostly, say, Ďwell maybe we can have free will and God can know which way our free will will choose.í Then you just demolished the freedom in the free will, if itís already determined which way it must go. See, itís no longer free. Something that had to be this way, is not free to be another way.

Now is that a big deal with Christians? Itís the biggest deal of all! What makes us so unique is that we have this free will. Therefore God can hold you responsible if you donĎt ĎfreelyĎ choose to do right verses wrong and He can burn you in hell for all eternity. People make their decisions on that.

This one guy that host TBM a lot and his wife sings and they play piano and sing too. I heard him 6-7 years ago I guess, say the reason he chose to believe in Jesus Christ, he said, Ďbecause I am afraid of going to hell and burning for all eternity.í Thatís why, I was afraid. Now since then over the years I have heard several others say the same thing, that they were afraid to go to hell.

You ask him, did you freely make that choice on your on? Heíll say, Ďabsolutely.í Nothing made you make that decision? ĎNope, nothing at all.í You made it all on your own? Oh I seeÖ the fear of burning in hell for all eternity had nothing to do with it? ĎOh yeah, well it did.í Was it a factor? ĎWell yeah.í How big of a factor? ĎWell it was a huge factor.í In other words that factor made you decide you wanted to accept Christ, is that right? So what happened to your free will? It is so stupid, this whole Christian gobbledy gook.

You are free to worship God or not to? Of course if you donít He will burn you in hell for all eternityÖ but you make up your mind, donít be pressured here, you have a freedom of will. Nothing can make you, you do it all on your own. But oh boy, if you make the wrong decision, this is the way itís going to go. Canít they see that? Canít we all see that?

Itís like somebody is twisting your arm and saying, say uncle. You say, Ďno.í They break your arm and say, say uncle. You say uncle. Did you do it with freedom of will? Itís ridiculous. You canít have it both ways.

If there is a God and He is the creator God, then of course His power is just unfathomable and He knows the future. If the future is known then it canít be otherwise. Therefore all choices have to be as they are, they cannot be otherwise. They are not free to be otherwise.


                                THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH

So God not only has to know the future, He has to know every single chain of events leading up to whatever the future is.

It says in Romans 8. The ďcarnal mind,Ē that is the unregenerate, perverted, reprobate mind of humanity, as we are before we learn to do anything good or right, ďis not subject to the law of God.Ē But therefore it is lawless, right? He said free will is lawless and if the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, then it is lawless? So then it can have free will, right? Wrong paleface, let me show you. Just because it is not subject to the law of God, doesnít mean itís not subject to law.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
v. 7  Because the carnal mind is enmity (means hatred, animosity) against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can (or able to) be.

So if carnal minded people who are not converted are not subject to the law of God then they are free to do whatever they want, right? Because they canít be subject to the law, which tells them or shows them or makes them live a particular way. Then they are free, right? Nope, go back to verse 2.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

See that, we will all follow ďthe law of sin and death.Ē Itís one law or the other, you are under law. We are under law one way or the other. We are under law, we cannot get away from that.

These emails that Iíve got here, this one say;

Dear Ray,

I have been reading your material for some while now, I guess a couple of years off and on. I agree with most everything that you believe, but I really canít get a grip on the view of free will. I just canít understand why God would make us do everything we do, even if it is sin. I know the Bible says, ďa kingdom divided against itself will surely fall.Ē Then why would God make us sin? I just donít understand that kind of logic.


Whatís wrong with that thinking? What is totally unscriptural about it? [Comment: He doesnít make us sin.] Yeah thatís getting at it, he says, Ďwhy would God make us sin?í Thatís right Bob, He doesnít make us sin. He doesnít, so letís read that in James, so we are sure of that.

With people when you say you donít have a free will that can act independent from all of the circumstances that can cause you to do and say and think and be what you are. You say Godís in control! ĎYes Godís in control. But then if I sin, God is making me sin.í No! God doesnít have to make us sin, we are sinning machines. We volunteer.

James 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man:
v. 14  But every man is tempted (how?), when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Does God make people sin? Does God make these dirty old men rape little children? That like the epitome of evil, does God make them do it? No! They volunteer. Do most of them even want to do it? They do it in secret, they do it at night. Why? They know itís wrong. Well why do they do it then? Lust! Just plain lust.

Now here is the flip side of this. Sometimes youíve got to read a little more of the context to get a fuller understanding of things.

James 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

Thatís what we just saw. We either live by the spirit of life in Christ or we live by the law of sin and death.

James 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
v. 17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lightsÖ

So there it is. Does God make people sin? No. But when anything good happens, itís attributed to God. If you sin itís attributed to your lust, He does not make you sin. But people when they get frustrated they will say things like that.

There are laws governing these things. ďThe law of sin and deathĒ (Rom 8:2 ), that has to do with your lust and itís built in. It takes power to overcome it. You canít just decide, Ďwell I wonít give in to my lust any more.í It takes training, it takes judgment, it takes suffering. You have to suffer to overcome some faults they are so big and so hard and so strong and they take you over and they control you. It takes suffering, it takes something really strong sometimes to get you to stop doing those things.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 08:42:01 PM by Kat »
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Kat

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Re: FREE WILL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Bible study Aug. 08
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2011, 12:26:45 AM »


Now hereís another letter (email), this guy has a totally different attitude. I donít want to read the whole thing, I will just skip around here a little bit. He says;

So by your own account, I can do what I want, live as I want, have as many women as I want.

In fact there is nothing under the sun that can separate me from God, in the end I will get rewarded anyway.


So there is a whole bunch of things that he doesnít understand. First of all he takes credit to himself for being able to live righteously, so that he will be one that God will save. But isnít it interesting he says, so by you account, ďI can do what I wantĒ and then in the end I will be saved ďanyway.í Well, listen isnít that what you have done most of your life, up until the time you were converted? Isnít that what we all do?

What if the Scripture said that if you live the way you want to live and do the things that you want to do that are wrong, you canít be saved? Well guess what, this guy would be out of commission too, wouldnít he? Of course he would, unless he said Iíve never did any of those things. Not only did he do them, but he still wants to, the truth of the matter is. So what you are saying is, ďI could live as I WANTĒÖ the WANT is still there! What does he want most? Many women, this guy is not converted at all.

Then we have this thing of ďI will get rewarded ANYWAY.Ē No, not ANYWAY, ONLY GodĎs way. Itís not anyway, itís only Godís way.

Now He says, ďnothing can separate me from God.Ē Yes it can, the Bible says your sins have separated between you and God. Sure it can. What he is saying is, I donít ever have to stop sinning and I still wonít ever be separated. I never said that, the Scriptures donít say that. See how perverted and screwed up their thinking gets.

He says ďin the endďÖ thatís right, in the end, but what has to transpires between all of this sin and evil and the end? What has to transpire to bring about the desired end? Not a continuation of what you are doing. Itís totally out of the equation. They think, Ďboy I nailed Ray on that.í He doesnít even know what heís talking about.

Yes in the end;
AFTER BITTER REPENTANCE 
AFTER BEING JUDGED
AND LEARNING RIGHTEOUSNESS

Then is the end after you do all of these things. All of those things are going to product those good end results. Itís what happens in the interim there and some place along the line you are going to have to change. You are going to have to stop doing those things. Iíve said these things a lot of times, but who is listening.

The things are not difficult, if we pay really close attention to the words. See he thinks Iím saying God is going to save you in your evil corrupt sinful ways. He is going to save you IN your sins. It doesnít say that! Letís notice Roman, back to chapter 8. I said this is one of the most profound chapters in the New Testament, Romans chapter 8, there is so much in here.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free FROM (not in) the law of sin and death.

You donít get saved IN, you get saved FROM. Well you say, Ďif there is no hell, Ray, what are we saved from?í We are saved ďfromĒ the things that the Bible says we are saved from ďsin and death.Ē Or does the Bible say we are saved from an eternal hell of torture? Where does it say we are saved from that? Where, show me a Scripture? There is no such Scripture, itĎs nonsense.

Now let me ask the question, if we donít have a freedom to do anything we want, nothing causes us, forces us, makes us, influences us, we are totally free from all that. What about God, is God free to do anything? [Comment: He never changes.] Yeah, but is He free to change? [Heís God He can do anything He wants.] [He is subject to the council of His own will.] There you go Harry. He can do anything He wants like Denny says, but He doesnít want! Why doesnít He want? Well He just freely decided that He doesnít want? No, thatís not what the Bible says. We want to stick with the Scripture and believe the Scripture, so letís look at the Scripture and believe what the Scripture say.


                                          ALL UNDER LAW

You all know that the Bible says God cannot lie. Right?

Titus 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lieÖ

If He has freedom of will, then He can lie. Am I right? If His will is FREE, there is no such thing as He cannot lie. Well if He cannot lie, why canít He lie? Has someone told Him He canít lie?

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him (God) who works all things after the counsel of His own will:

I donít suppose you would be too far off  base if you were to say, He works out all things after the LAW of His on will. Because the council of God is law. Itís like in ĎThe King and I,í so let it be written, so let it be done. ThatĎs the law baby.

So is God free to lie? NO! No He is not. Because He has determined by the counsel of His own will that He will not and can not lie.

So then why do we think we have freedom to do contrary to what things make us do? Listen, this universe is a law abiding universe. Explosions are regulated by laws. The earth and all our environments and the ecosystem is all operated by law. Our body, our mind all operates by law.

Now we said that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, but it is subject to the law of carnality, of sin and death and the lusts of the flesh and all of that? It is subject to that.

So one way or another youíre going to be subject to law. You can not live outside of the realm of law. You are a law abiding creature, one way or the other. You canít will yourself out of law, you canít.

I mean men have desired to fly, they canít. You say, Ďwell Iíll just will it.í You canít, there is a law against allowing a man to flap his arms and fly, there is a law against that, itís called gravity. So youíve got to make an instrument thatís more powerful than a man that can lift you off the ground.

So you are either under one law or another, but you are always under law. If you are under law, you are not free to do what the law dictates, because laws do work they do operate.
 
End of audio 1


                                        THE INTERPRETATION
                                             by ARISTOTLE

I want to read you something here that Aristotle wrote, because we are going to get a little more technical on this. Iím hoping through that we can understand this principle, this law if you will of cause and effect and that man does not have a freedom of will to do anything contrary to what God knows he will do.

Man wants to think thatÖ itís like Oprah Winfrey said, ĎInvictousí I guess itís the name of the poem, thatís her favorite poem; I am the captain of my soulÖ you know I can do what I want, itís all me and so on. People like that feeling.

So back to Aristotle, this is before Christ. Aristotle wrote a piece called ĎThe Interpretationí where he discusses a case about a sea battle that is going to take place the next day. There is going to be Two warring admirals, A and B, that are preparing their fleets for a decisive sea battle tomorrow. The battle will be fought until one side is victorious. You got the premise?

But the ďlogical laws (or principles)Ē of the excluded middle (every proposition is either true or false) and of noncontradiction (no proposition is both true and false), require that one of the propositions, ďA winsĒ and ďit is false that A wins,Ē is true and the other is false. Suppose ďA winsĒ is (today) true. Then whatever A does (or fails to do) today will make no difference:

Comment: Understand what heís saying? A cannot both win and lose the battle and B cannot both win and lose the battle. So he says suppose A (today) is true that he wins. Then whatever he does or fails to do today will make no difference.

A must win; similarly, whatever B does (or fails to do) today will make no difference: the outcome is already settled (that is, A must win). Or again, suppose ďA winsĒ is (today) false. Then no matter what A does today (or fails to do), it will make no difference: A must lose;

Comment: Do you understand that, is it all clear? Simple enough, right?

Similarly, no matter what B does (or fails to do), it will make no difference: the outcome is already settled (that is, A must lose). Thus, if every proposition is either true or false (and not both), then planning, or as Aristotle put it Ďtaking troubleí, is futile. The future will be what it will be, irrespective of our planning, intentions, etc.

Well what about it? Does anybody see anything wrong with Aristotleís argument? No. You donít see a major flaw in that thinking? [Comment: Well what we do matters, which leads to the outcome, so everything we do matters.] Not if the outcome is already determined. [What God causes us to do, makes the outcome.] Understand what he is saying, if itís true today, that A will win the sea battle, that is the truism, itís true he will win. Then itís doesnít matter what he does or what he prepares or anything, he will win. Whatís wrong with this premise?

I was surprise that the philosopher that wrote this, he didnít catch it either. Whatís wrong with Aristotleís thinking here? His idea is right. [Comment: His 3rd person is wrong, heís missing the 3rd person.] In what way? [The control of who is controlling the win.] Well I think you are getting close to it, you are close to it Harry. But thatís not quite it.

I had to read this twice myself. Okay, here it is. One of the propositions has to be true, A wins or it is false that A wins is true and the other is false. You canít have A winning and losing, both propositions. You canít have A and B winning, you canít have that contradictory that canít be true, those contradictions.

Now notice what he says, ďSuppose ďA winsĒ is (today) true.Ē Then whatever A does or doesnít do will not effect the outcome, heíll win. Right? Whatís wrong with that? Harry just about had it, you were pretty close Harry, hereís the problem with his argument, the word SUPPOSE. ďSuppose A wins is (today) true.Ē Who is supposing? Who is the supposer? What knowledge or understanding do we have that anything that will happen tomorrow is already predetermined to happen, today? What knowledge do we have of anything like that? How can we say or suggest or think anything like that?

Let me show you real simply how you can knock that suppose out of there. Suppose A wins is (today) true, today that is a truism, tomorrow A will win the sea battle. Right? But supposing tomorrow there is a giant cyclone or something or hurricane and they donít even go to war or go to battle. Then how was it true that A wins the battle tomorrow, they are not even going to battle? So it canít be true today that A wins tomorrow, it is only a supposition. The truth is, Mr. Aristotle, your supposition is wrong and groundless.

There is only one way and I said it in the beginning of the study, there is only one way that we can know whether they win the battle tomorrow and therefore itís true today to say it. There is only one way and that is IF GOD PREDICTS IT.

You take God out of the equation and you can suppose all you want, because there is no way to state that anything thatís going to happen tomorrow is true today. Because it may not happen. A could send all his men home, they leave and all go home, so they donĎt fight. B is out there ready to fight, but where are they? They all went home, see.

Thatís why free will is predicated on the foreknowledge of God! The foreknowledge of God is what wipes it out. If God knows what will happen, nothing that any one can do can prevent it from happening.

Somebody said something about there are causes that bring about whether A would win anyway. Maybe A is going to win because God is going to perform a miracle, you know, he is just going to sink the other fleet by some bad weather and they donĎt even go to war. But A won. So there are causes.

Thatís whatís wrong with this guys email, he thinks a little too much like Aristotle. He jumps from A to Z and everything between A to Z is the same lustful, carnal minded living that he ďwants.Ē He thinks that if A is being born and Z is entering the kingdom of God and he thinks that whatever he does at B,C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, KÖ he will still end up in the kingdom of God ďregardless.Ē Thatís not true.

Is it true that you will end up in the kingdom of God? Absolutely, but not by doing A lusting after all the women, robbing, stealing, cheating or whatever and doing it in stage B of his life and stage C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, PÖ No.!

You have got to be able to see through these stupid arguments. So are we making sense so far?


                                                 ROBOT?

So the argument is, without free will, then we must be nothing but robots. Oh really? How many times do you hear that said, I mean itís so many, many, many times. They think thatís a logical argument. Itís either this or that. Oh really? Is there only black and white, are there no shades gray? Are there not colors red, blue, green? Is everything black and white?

So either we have free will or we are stupid dumb robot? No. Now what if there are some similarities between robots and humans? Is that a bad thing? You all have seen robot, right? They operate just like the human skeleton with muscles on it. Is that not similar? Does not a robot look like a strange mechanical man, kind of? Right? Of course there are similarities, whatís wrong with that? They say, Ďoh robot, thatís an ugly word, a machine. We donít want a machine.í Machines are wonderful things.

Your body has little machines in them too. You see that one little thing in the cell thatís made like a motor boat with a propeller on the back?  It is incredible what they are finding out. What else is in there? It is some amazing stuff.

Okay so yes there are some similarities between a man an a machine and a man an a robot. But there are a lot of dissimilarities too.

Do robots have faith? No.

Do robots have emotions? Do they get happy, are they happy some days and sad some days and melancholy? No.

Are robots creative? No, they do exactly what they are programmed to do or else they screw up whatever it is they are suppose to be making.

Are robots capable of love?

Do robots learn? Now I know they are working on intelligent design, but thatís not the kind of learning that Iím talking about. Iím talking about a much higher level.
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Kat

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Re: FREE WILL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Bible study Aug. 08
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2011, 12:27:45 AM »


                                LEARNING THROUGH STRUCTURED LIVING

If we had free will there is no guarantee that anyone would ever do anything right. Why? Because the will is always free, there is nothing there, no law, no principle to guide it to go this way or that. Itís always free to do whatever it wants. Always free, no hindrances. So if we think the world is chaotic now, imagine if people did have free will and God was not controlling things.

We are born in a structured environment and we are taught by our parents. We are taught how to play with things, we are taught how to eat and so on. We learn. We learn those things. Now those things that we learn are the things that cause us to think and do the things we do when we are a little older. You never forget how to walk when you are 6, 7, 8, 9. You will have learned it at age 1, but you are still doing it at age 5, 6, 7, 8, right? You learn these things. Robots donít learn things like that.

Then we go to school. School is structured. You are not free to not go to class or not do your homework or not listen to the instructions, you will flunk out. People do flunk out, but what Iím saying is the structure is there to help you to learn. Hopefully to learn to do things better and more beneficial for humanity, itís the derelicts that drop out. Why do they? Because they are not learning, they are not inculcating the good principles that they should have been learning as children. So they are operating by the law of sin and death, by their lusts. They are still operating under law, but those that become more useful, they learn to operate under a structured environment. When you go to work for somebody, they tell you how and what to do, youíre not free to just do it any ole way. There is structure you see.

God is putting us through a lifetime of all kinds structured living and we are suppose to learn from that. Whether we are rebels or saints we do learn. Even criminals learn how to do things, some of them are very clever.

We are so far from robots. We are so marvelously made that itís almost an insult to suggest that either you have free will or you are a robot, thatís just nonsense.


                                    LEARNING VS FREEDOM OF WILL

So we learn. Now that is one of the things that separates us from a robot, we learn. So letís take that a little further in some of these stupid arguments. They say, Ďwell God doesnít want robots, He wants us to love Him freely.í Excuse me, how do you love someone Ďfreely.í I mean you can love them voluntarily, but how do you love them without a cause? When we talk about free will, we are talking about causality. What causes you to think or do.

So if you love God voluntarily, how can you love Him if you are made to love Him? I mean I have had this thrown in my face a hundred times over the years now, ĎRay God doesnít want robots. Because if you donít have this freedom of will to love God, then you are just a robot.í Well now here is one place where the robot out shines the human, quite frankly.

A robot working on an assembly line will always get it right. Humans donít, they make mistakes, they drop things. You see there are all kinds of things. But as long as a robot is functioning and the gears are right, it always gets it right. So in some ways robots are superior to humans, especially those operating under the law of sin and death.

So the argument, God doesnít want robotsÖ excuse me. How do you love God unless there are things that make you love Him? Right away they say, ĎGod doesnít force anybody to love Him.í I didnít use the word Ďforce,í and letís back off the word Ďmake,í letís bring it down to Ďinspire.í That is also a cause. It doesnít matter what brings it about, if something brings it about it was caused. Inspiration can bring things about.

So how can you love, not only God, how can you love anybody without a cause. Not only is it impossible, but the whole idea is stupid. Instead of me loving my wife I might as well love a rock. If there is nothing that inspires in either one to love them, I might as well love a rock just as much as my wife. People think that they believe things that they really donít. Thatís where deception come in.

What makes real sense is to be able to learn things. To learn things and based on what you learned make sound decisions.

If people had free will and they never learned anything, it would be totally useless. But the minute you start talking about learning, you start throwing out the free will. Because now you base what you do and think, not on your freedom of will, but on what you learned.

Some people will say phrases like, Ďwell you canít legislate morality.í Well that has a certain amount of truth to it, you can legislate some morality.

You know we have speed limits for example, some people go over a little bit, but you canít drive down this highway 120, at least you wonít do it too often or you will go to jail. If you go to jail too often or stay there too long, guess what? You wonít want to do that anymore. You can have your freedom of will or whatever you think youíve got, but you wonít want to do that anymore. Because you have Ďlearnedí that when you do this, the consequences are that, and Ďthatí is not much fun. You learn.

The very fact that we learn to do things and learn to do the right things, now that makes sense. I mean a robot that always does the right thing, makes more sense than a human who thinks he has free will and never does the right thing. Doesnít it?

So how great is this free will? The church teach that everybodyís got it. This is the greatest gift God every gave man. Whatís so great about it? If you had freedom of the will, which you donít, but if you did what would be good it? What?


                                      FREE WILL DOESNíT WORK

Letís take their premise that mankind has been given free willÖ Adam and Eve had free will. Now if you ask them, do you mean by the freedom of the will and can either decide to do whatís right or can decide to do whatís wrong and nothing can make me do one or the other? Is that what you mean by the freedom of the will? They will tell you, Ďyes, nothing can make you.í In other words, if something makes you do something against your will, then you donít have freedom of the will. You have free will so you can, meaning I have that ability. So yes a person with free will has the power and ability to choose good over evil, is that what you are telling me? They say, Ďyes thatís what Iím telling you.í Wrong paleface.

If there were such a thing as free will than we know one thing for sure, it doesnít work. Itís broken. Adam and Eve sinned, Cain killed his own brother and on down the lineÖ all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God.

Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:12  Öthere is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Thatís stupid, you canít say something like that, if we have free will. Free will means that you can go this way or you can go that way and nothing makes you always go that way. Well then why has the whole human race always gone that way?

If the humans have free will how does God know that anyone will be saved? How can He know that? Or how could He know that it would be proportional? What makes Him think that most wonít and a few will? Why? They all have equal free will, donít they? If itís equal then there is no reason under the sun why all shouldnít go the wrong wayÖ or all shouldnít go right wayÖ or at least be a mixture. The law of probability might enter that, Iím not sure I would have to think about that.

But if ďall have sinnedĒ and ďthere is none that doeth good, no, NOT ONE.Ē Well then something is making people choose bad over good. Therefore their will is not free, if the whole human race chooses WRONG.

All babies are greedy at birth and under one year old. They all grab and take away toys from other children, that is natural. They all yell and scream when they donít get what they want. They all throw temper tantrums, accept my children didnít. But they were bad and I trained them early. They didnít throw tempter tantrums for sure, neither one ever threw a temper tantrum. But you have to teach them, they donít on there own do all these right and good things.

If you donít believe me you raise a teenager. There are those rebellious years, it is very difficult, but thank God they can learn. They see by the things that they SUFFER that it is better to do this, than to do that. What does that do to free will? It throws it out the window.

So why is it that you do this now, instead of that? Because it hurts when you do that. This whole life is made up of pain. We make decisions all day long trying to get away from pain, suffering, misery, fear, anguish, hunger. We donít like those things, so we do the opposite. Those are CAUSES that bring about those things.

So if everybody does what is wrong, then how is God going to get them to do what is right? Remember the argument, He wonít interfere with your free will, you must do it freely. Why the whole Christian doctrine topples.

Jesus Christ said ďyou havenít chosen Me.

John 15:16  Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen youÖ

Ask any minister in the world and say, Iím a sinner, if I want to choose to follow Christ now, can I do that? They say, Ďabsolutely my son, yes, praise the Lord.í Now if he were a true minister of God he would say no, you absolutely cannot. It says;

John 6:44  No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him:

Draw him or call him or drag him, the Greek is drag him. You canít choose it on your own, because why? You are living according to the laws sin and death. Something has to intervene in your life to make you want to do different. Make you!


                                  JUDGEMENTS AND SUFFERING

If people have free will how is it God is going to bring about a righteous world where everybody does whatís right? Iíll give you one grand Scripture. They say, Ďyou took that out of context Ray.í Well give it to me in context. I ask a guy that recently, I said give me that verse in context.

Isa 26:9  Öfor when Thy (thatís God) judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

How will they learn it? Through ďjudgments.Ē Judgments are painful. Itís not by getting a ice cream sundae every time you think a good thought and bad things happen when you think bad thoughts. But see it takes judgments. Thatís the only way people will learn to be righteous, youíve got to go through judgments.

Sometimes we think they are too hard. I thought some of mine were too hard. My wife thinks hers are too hard. They are pretty hard, very very hard, very very tough. But I donít have any doubt that the reason behind it is good., because we even learn of Christ.

Heb 5:8  Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;

It doesnít mean He was ever un-obedient, He just learned to be obedient by the things which He suffered. He learned what it was like to obey God and go in the wilderness and not eat for forty days and forty nights, getting very hungry and almost starving to death. That how He learned that that obedience is a form of suffering.

Itís been brought up that if we donít have free will then what good are commandments and threats in the Bible? The Bible is full of do this, donít do that, if you do this Iíll do that to you. If you donít have free will to answer these things, then why does He propose it then? Why does He propose, here is a commandment and here is what will happen if you donít do it, if you donĎt have free will? Excuse me? What good are commandments and threats if you do have free will? Turn it around, what good are threats and commandments if you do have? The Ďthreatí is the CAUSE to get you to keep the commandment.

Itís like the guy that said, Ďwe have free will.í Why are you a Christian? ĎI was afraid to go to hell.í Wait a minute, you thought that was a pretty strong threat I guess, didnít you? He surely did. There isnít such a hell, but at least from his perspective he thinks so and thatís what made him do it. Yet he would turn around and tell you he has free will and nobody made him make that decision or nothing. Nobody or nothing.


                                      GOD IS OPERATING

So what a lot of people fail to recognize is, we are born and God says all of humanity is going to be in His family one day. It does matter what happens in the interim from our perspective. You have good people and bad people. Infants die at birth or a day old or a week old or a year old or five years old. So how do they go from that to entering the family of God? They havenít even experienced the reason for humanity and our existence and so on. Well the Scriptures talk about that.

Isa 65:20  There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years oldÖ

A baby will live to be a hundred years old and will learn. So there is provisions for all these things.

So youíre born and at some place you enter the kingdom of God. Thatís the goal of the human family. But what happens between A and Z? God is in control of it and since He is in control of it... itís not that everything just automatically goes from A to Z and God just says itís that way. He does say He Ďoperates.í Now there is another twist to this, okay. He just doesnít say that I wind it up and now it goes until it reaches the end. God is operating everything according to the council of His own will.

See that then throws a monkey wrench to into Aristotleís A and B battling for the victory at sea. Because between now and tomorrow maybe the reason one is victorious is something that hasnít happened yet today. By tomorrow they might have come up with a plan that they didnít have today. They say, Ďwow thatís a great plan.í That plan is what brings the victory. That just like the final outcome was not true today, neither was the plan true today, because it didnít exist, it had to come into existence. So you canít, there is no way to say everything would have to have a known future, even if there was no God. Not necessarily, because God is operating. So these things are brought to pass.


                                    THE BOTTOM LINE:

Because God had foreknowledge of all things no one is free to do or think or say anything that would make that foreknowledge false. Therefore you donít have foreknowledge.

All these argument about, Ďwell maybe God lives outside of time, so what happens in time can be known ahead of time, without time.í Itís all just nonsensical gyrations of the brain. It proves nothing, you canít make it so that you have free will and God Himself doesnít know what you are going to do. But He does know!

If He does know it, then it canít be differently and if it canít be different, than you canít have made a different choice. You couldnít have! So it wasnít free. What you decided to do was not free to not happen, if God knew you were going to do it. Thatís it in a nut shell.

I want to talk about some of these other things so that we understand that there are episodes in our life that must come about a certain way and God controls that. It doesnít matter some will believe and some wonít, Godís in control. We have already determined itís not of free will, it all of God.

Itís interesting, ask any Christian if they made a decision to be a Christian or whatever and if God didnít force them and then you say, you mean God has not inspired you? ĎOh yeah.í Are you taking credit for your own salvation? ĎOh no, itís all of God.í Well not all, I mean you contributed a lot, most? ĎOh no it was all of God.í Well if it was all of God, then why do you need free will? What good is free will, if itís all of God why do you want free will? See what I mean? You get them trapped at every corner, you just can not get around it. The whole thing is humbling and people donít want to be humbled.
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