FREE WILL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Biblestudy Aug. 2008

[Kat]

Aug. 2008 Bible study

                                                   FREE WILL

This really is an amazing concept. It's been argued by theologians and philosophers for thousands of years. I mean going back further than the Christians faith; Plato, Aristotle - they all dealt with this thing of free will and so on.

Why do you think it is such a hard concept for people to understand? Why can't they get it? [Comment: We make our own choices all day long.] Okay, so you think because it feels like we have free will? [Yes.] We don't actually feel something hindering us, nobody actually twist our arm to make a decision. I mean we just kind of do it spontaneously, therefore we think nothing caused it. We may even think something may of influenced it, you know. But something actually causes it. Nothing made you think what you thought? Nothing made you do what you did? But of course it did.

We have to be careful about words, because words can make us very prejudice. We can say for example, someone is inspired to write a beautiful song. They were inspired, right? Or we could say somebody forced them to write a song... forced them. Well that's not the same connotation is it, being inspired and being forced? But the truth of the matter is they both cause the song to be written, didn't they? Yeah. So they are both a cause.

So the word 'cause' is not good or evil, I mean it's just what it is. It can cause something happy, it can cause something sad. I mean the word 'cause' itself has no moral bias to it. So that's true, people don't feel like they are being coerced, therefore they think they have free will. But they don't know what it is.

They don't know what the word 'free' means, if you have 'free' choice. Free means there's not some influence internally, externally or any other way causing you - forcing you - making you to make the choice. See, that's what free is. Free from causality, nothing causes you to do what you do. People think, 'well yes that's the way it is, I make all of my choices and decisions, I think what I think, I go where I want to go and nothing causes me, makes me or forces me to.'

Well maybe nothing forces you to, because then you would be more aware of it. But if something just influences you, then you are not so aware of it. Of course something influences everything you do and that's the CAUSE.

So anything that is caused to happen, cannot NOT happen. Once it's caused to happen it cannot be changed. Like I've said so many times, 'you can't un-ring a bell.' Once it's rung, it's ringing, it's over. You can't take the ring back, it's too late. So if something is caused, you cannot prevent it.

But is everything caused? Well, people want to have it both ways. People like the idea that they don't have to do things according to how either society, the government, the laws of nature or the environment make you do things. They don't like that idea. It doesn't matter if you like it or not, it's true.

Now I get a lot of emails and I got two this week and I think both on the same day. One was antagonistic about free will and the other one was not. He agreed that it was probably true, he just doesn't get it, he just doesn't understand it.

The Scripture say that we by nature were children of wrath. That means anger, contentious and so on.

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Not children of God's wrath... our own wrath. We are the wrathful ones.


                                    FREE WILL IS LAWLESS

We read in Romans 8 that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God and it's not, subject to the law of God.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The whole concept of free will is lawless. Because if it was lawful then whatever we do or think or say, there would be a regulator and it would not be free any more. So the whole concept is lawless.

We know that everything in nature operates by laws, if it didn't scientists would have no idea what's going on. We would have never learned to build airplanes and stuff like that or the video camera. So many laws come into practice. But free will is lawless, because if there's laws regulating your thinking it's no longer free. So it's a contradiction.


                                       FOREKNOWLEDGE

Now there is one thing that's makes free will a total impossibility - one thing. One thing just demolishes it. What is that? [Comment: The sovereignty of God.] Yeah His sovereignty, but a little more specifically is the foreknowledge of God. The foreknowledge of God wipes out free will, because if God knows what will happen, it can't be otherwise.

If the future cannot be but one way, there is no freedom of choice or freedom of will. It must be the way that God knows it will turn out. It must be!

This is the hard thing for people to get. I've read pages and pages and pages from philosophers and theologians and they want to have it both ways. They say, 'yes it does kind of appear that way. If God knows what will happen, then it's not likely that it could be another way, because that would make His foreknowledge false.' And if He prophesied what will happen it would also make Him what? [Comment: A liar.] Would make Him a lair, exactly. Not only make Him ignorant, but it would make Him a liar as well.

So foreknowledge is what demolishes free will. You cannot have the future predicted and yet have freedom of choices that can make it come out totally different. Some people think, 'well God only deals with big things, little things you know...' No, He deal with little things.

You all heard the story about the general? He's in the army. His horse came out of a horseshoe, therefore horseshoe got loose and the shoe fell off. Because the shoe fell off, he fell off the horse, because it stumbled. So because he fell off the horse he wasn't in a position of leadership where he should have been. Therefore they lost that battle that he was in charge of. Because they lost that battle, they lost the war.

My goodness, now if they lost the war, guess what? Wars are usually fought between nations, so that nail changed the history of the world. One nail changed the history of the world. If one nail can change the history of the world, how in the world can six billion people be at liberty to make choices contradictory to the way God know things will turn out?


                FREE CHOICE CONTRADICTS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

Now you can believe in choice if you want to, but you can't believe in free choice and a sovereign all knowing God. You can not, the two are totally contradictory. You just have to get that. Where are you going to stand on this issue? Is there a God or isn't there?

If there isn't then you can happily go on your way, thinking you have free will and we won't fault you for it. But if you believe there is a God, you cannot continue on with this nonsense that you have a free will that circumstances don't make you do or change or become or say or whatever what you do. You can not.

People though, they are so carnal, so vain, they won't even think about it long enough to see that there is no alterative. There is no alterative! The arguments are so pathetic, I've heard theologians or read them mostly, say, 'well maybe we can have free will and God can know which way our free will will choose.' Then you just demolished the freedom in the free will, if it's already determined which way it must go. See, it's no longer free. Something that had to be this way, is not free to be another way.

Now is that a big deal with Christians? It's the biggest deal of all! What makes us so unique is that we have this free will. Therefore God can hold you responsible if you don't 'freely' choose to do right verses wrong and He can burn you in hell for all eternity. People make their decisions on that.

This one guy that host TBM a lot and his wife sings and they play piano and sing too. I heard him 6-7 years ago I guess, say the reason he chose to believe in Jesus Christ, he said, 'because I am afraid of going to hell and burning for all eternity.' That's why, I was afraid. Now since then over the years I have heard several others say the same thing, that they were afraid to go to hell.

You ask him, did you freely make that choice on your on? He'll say, 'absolutely.' Nothing made you make that decision? 'Nope, nothing at all.' You made it all on your own? Oh I see... the fear of burning in hell for all eternity had nothing to do with it? 'Oh yeah, well it did.' Was it a factor? 'Well yeah.' How big of a factor? 'Well it was a huge factor.' In other words that factor made you decide you wanted to accept Christ, is that right? So what happened to your free will? It is so stupid, this whole Christian gobbledy gook.

You are free to worship God or not to? Of course if you don't He will burn you in hell for all eternity... but you make up your mind, don't be pressured here, you have a freedom of will. Nothing can make you, you do it all on your own. But oh boy, if you make the wrong decision, this is the way it's going to go. Can't they see that? Can't we all see that?

It's like somebody is twisting your arm and saying, say uncle. You say, 'no.' They break your arm and say, say uncle. You say uncle. Did you do it with freedom of will? It's ridiculous. You can't have it both ways.

If there is a God and He is the creator God, then of course His power is just unfathomable and He knows the future. If the future is known then it can't be otherwise. Therefore all choices have to be as they are, they cannot be otherwise. They are not free to be otherwise.


                               THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH

So God not only has to know the future, He has to know every single chain of events leading up to whatever the future is.

It says in Romans 8. The "carnal mind," that is the unregenerate, perverted, reprobate mind of humanity, as we are before we learn to do anything good or right, "is not subject to the law of God." But therefore it is lawless, right? He said free will is lawless and if the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, then it is lawless? So then it can have free will, right? Wrong paleface, let me show you. Just because it is not subject to the law of God, doesn't mean it's not subject to law.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
v. 7  Because the carnal mind is enmity (means hatred, animosity) against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can (or able to) be.

So if carnal minded people who are not converted are not subject to the law of God then they are free to do whatever they want, right? Because they can't be subject to the law, which tells them or shows them or makes them live a particular way. Then they are free, right? Nope, go back to verse 2.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

See that, we will all follow "the law of sin and death." It's one law or the other, you are under law. We are under law one way or the other. We are under law, we cannot get away from that.

These emails that I've got here, this one say;

Dear Ray,

I have been reading your material for some while now, I guess a couple of years off and on. I agree with most everything that you believe, but I really can't get a grip on the view of free will. I just can't understand why God would make us do everything we do, even if it is sin. I know the Bible says, "a kingdom divided against itself will surely fall." Then why would God make us sin? I just don't understand that kind of logic.

What's wrong with that thinking? What is totally unscriptural about it? [Comment: He doesn't make us sin.] Yeah that's getting at it, he says, 'why would God make us sin?' That's right Bob, He doesn't make us sin. He doesn't, so let's read that in James, so we are sure of that.

With people when you say you don't have a free will that can act independent from all of the circumstances that can cause you to do and say and think and be what you are. You say God's in control! 'Yes God's in control. But then if I sin, God is making me sin.' No! God doesn't have to make us sin, we are sinning machines. We volunteer.

James 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man:
v. 14  But every man is tempted (how?), when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Does God make people sin? Does God make these dirty old men rape little children? That like the epitome of evil, does God make them do it? No! They volunteer. Do most of them even want to do it? They do it in secret, they do it at night. Why? They know it's wrong. Well why do they do it then? Lust! Just plain lust.

Now here is the flip side of this. Sometimes you've got to read a little more of the context to get a fuller understanding of things.

James 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

That's what we just saw. We either live by the spirit of life in Christ or we live by the law of sin and death.

James 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
v. 17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights...

So there it is. Does God make people sin? No. But when anything good happens, it's attributed to God. If you sin it's attributed to your lust, He does not make you sin. But people when they get frustrated they will say things like that.

There are laws governing these things. "The law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2 ), that has to do with your lust and it's built in. It takes power to overcome it. You can't just decide, 'well I won't give in to my lust any more.' It takes training, it takes judgment, it takes suffering. You have to suffer to overcome some faults they are so big and so hard and so strong and they take you over and they control you. It takes suffering, it takes something really strong sometimes to get you to stop doing those things.

[Kat]

Now here's another letter (email), this guy has a totally different attitude. I don't want to read the whole thing, I will just skip around here a little bit. He says;

So by your own account, I can do what I want, live as I want, have as many women as I want.

In fact there is nothing under the sun that can separate me from God, in the end I will get rewarded anyway.

So there is a whole bunch of things that he doesn't understand. First of all he takes credit to himself for being able to live righteously, so that he will be one that God will save. But isn't it interesting he says, so by you account, "I can do what I want" and then in the end I will be saved "anyway.' Well, listen isn't that what you have done most of your life, up until the time you were converted? Isn't that what we all do?

What if the Scripture said that if you live the way you want to live and do the things that you want to do that are wrong, you can't be saved? Well guess what, this guy would be out of commission too, wouldn't he? Of course he would, unless he said I've never did any of those things. Not only did he do them, but he still wants to, the truth of the matter is. So what you are saying is, "I could live as I WANT"... the WANT is still there! What does he want most? Many women, this guy is not converted at all.

Then we have this thing of "I will get rewarded ANYWAY." No, not ANYWAY, ONLY God's way. It's not anyway, it's only God's way.

Now He says, "nothing can separate me from God." Yes it can, the Bible says your sins have separated between you and God. Sure it can. What he is saying is, I don't ever have to stop sinning and I still won't ever be separated. I never said that, the Scriptures don't say that. See how perverted and screwed up their thinking gets.

He says "in the end"... that's right, in the end, but what has to transpires between all of this sin and evil and the end? What has to transpire to bring about the desired end? Not a continuation of what you are doing. It's totally out of the equation. They think, 'boy I nailed Ray on that.' He doesn't even know what he's talking about.

Yes in the end;
AFTER BITTER REPENTANCE 
AFTER BEING JUDGED
AND LEARNING RIGHTEOUSNESS

Then is the end after you do all of these things. All of those things are going to product those good end results. It's what happens in the interim there and some place along the line you are going to have to change. You are going to have to stop doing those things. I've said these things a lot of times, but who is listening.

The things are not difficult, if we pay really close attention to the words. See he thinks I'm saying God is going to save you in your evil corrupt sinful ways. He is going to save you IN your sins. It doesn't say that! Let's notice Roman, back to chapter 8. I said this is one of the most profound chapters in the New Testament, Romans chapter 8, there is so much in here.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free FROM (not in) the law of sin and death.

You don't get saved IN, you get saved FROM. Well you say, 'if there is no hell, Ray, what are we saved from?' We are saved "from" the things that the Bible says we are saved from "sin and death." Or does the Bible say we are saved from an eternal hell of torture? Where does it say we are saved from that? Where, show me a Scripture? There is no such Scripture, it's nonsense.

Now let me ask the question, if we don't have a freedom to do anything we want, nothing causes us, forces us, makes us, influences us, we are totally free from all that. What about God, is God free to do anything? [Comment: He never changes.] Yeah, but is He free to change? [He's God He can do anything He wants.] [He is subject to the council of His own will.] There you go Harry. He can do anything He wants like Denny says, but He doesn't want! Why doesn't He want? Well He just freely decided that He doesn't want? No, that's not what the Bible says. We want to stick with the Scripture and believe the Scripture, so let's look at the Scripture and believe what the Scripture say.


                                          ALL UNDER LAW

You all know that the Bible says God cannot lie. Right?

Titus 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie...

If He has freedom of will, then He can lie. Am I right? If His will is FREE, there is no such thing as He cannot lie. Well if He cannot lie, why can't He lie? Has someone told Him He can't lie?

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him (God) who works all things after the counsel of His own will:

I don't suppose you would be too far off  base if you were to say, He works out all things after the LAW of His on will. Because the council of God is law. It's like in 'The King and I,' so let it be written, so let it be done. That's the law baby.

So is God free to lie? NO! No He is not. Because He has determined by the counsel of His own will that He will not and can not lie.

So then why do we think we have freedom to do contrary to what things make us do? Listen, this universe is a law abiding universe. Explosions are regulated by laws. The earth and all our environments and the ecosystem is all operated by law. Our body, our mind all operates by law.

Now we said that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, but it is subject to the law of carnality, of sin and death and the lusts of the flesh and all of that? It is subject to that.

So one way or another you're going to be subject to law. You can not live outside of the realm of law. You are a law abiding creature, one way or the other. You can't will yourself out of law, you can't.

I mean men have desired to fly, they can't. You say, 'well I'll just will it.' You can't, there is a law against allowing a man to flap his arms and fly, there is a law against that, it's called gravity. So you've got to make an instrument that's more powerful than a man that can lift you off the ground.

So you are either under one law or another, but you are always under law. If you are under law, you are not free to do what the law dictates, because laws do work they do operate.

End of audio 1


                                        THE INTERPRETATION
                                             by ARISTOTLE

I want to read you something here that Aristotle wrote, because we are going to get a little more technical on this. I'm hoping through that we can understand this principle, this law if you will of cause and effect and that man does not have a freedom of will to do anything contrary to what God knows he will do.

Man wants to think that... it's like Oprah Winfrey said, 'Invictous' I guess it's the name of the poem, that's her favorite poem; I am the captain of my soul... you know I can do what I want, it's all me and so on. People like that feeling.

So back to Aristotle, this is before Christ. Aristotle wrote a piece called 'The Interpretation' where he discusses a case about a sea battle that is going to take place the next day. There is going to be Two warring admirals, A and B, that are preparing their fleets for a decisive sea battle tomorrow. The battle will be fought until one side is victorious. You got the premise?

But the "logical laws (or principles)" of the excluded middle (every proposition is either true or false) and of noncontradiction (no proposition is both true and false), require that one of the propositions, "A wins" and "it is false that A wins," is true and the other is false. Suppose "A wins" is (today) true. Then whatever A does (or fails to do) today will make no difference:

Comment: Understand what he's saying? A cannot both win and lose the battle and B cannot both win and lose the battle. So he says suppose A (today) is true that he wins. Then whatever he does or fails to do today will make no difference.

A must win; similarly, whatever B does (or fails to do) today will make no difference: the outcome is already settled (that is, A must win). Or again, suppose "A wins" is (today) false. Then no matter what A does today (or fails to do), it will make no difference: A must lose;

Comment: Do you understand that, is it all clear? Simple enough, right?

Similarly, no matter what B does (or fails to do), it will make no difference: the outcome is already settled (that is, A must lose). Thus, if every proposition is either true or false (and not both), then planning, or as Aristotle put it 'taking trouble', is futile. The future will be what it will be, irrespective of our planning, intentions, etc.

Well what about it? Does anybody see anything wrong with Aristotle's argument? No. You don't see a major flaw in that thinking? [Comment: Well what we do matters, which leads to the outcome, so everything we do matters.] Not if the outcome is already determined. [What God causes us to do, makes the outcome.] Understand what he is saying, if it's true today, that A will win the sea battle, that is the truism, it's true he will win. Then it's doesn't matter what he does or what he prepares or anything, he will win. What's wrong with this premise?

I was surprise that the philosopher that wrote this, he didn't catch it either. What's wrong with Aristotle's thinking here? His idea is right. [Comment: His 3rd person is wrong, he's missing the 3rd person.] In what way? [The control of who is controlling the win.] Well I think you are getting close to it, you are close to it Harry. But that's not quite it.

I had to read this twice myself. Okay, here it is. One of the propositions has to be true, A wins or it is false that A wins is true and the other is false. You can't have A winning and losing, both propositions. You can't have A and B winning, you can't have that contradictory that can't be true, those contradictions.

Now notice what he says, "Suppose "A wins" is (today) true." Then whatever A does or doesn't do will not effect the outcome, he'll win. Right? What's wrong with that? Harry just about had it, you were pretty close Harry, here's the problem with his argument, the word SUPPOSE. "Suppose A wins is (today) true." Who is supposing? Who is the supposer? What knowledge or understanding do we have that anything that will happen tomorrow is already predetermined to happen, today? What knowledge do we have of anything like that? How can we say or suggest or think anything like that?

Let me show you real simply how you can knock that suppose out of there. Suppose A wins is (today) true, today that is a truism, tomorrow A will win the sea battle. Right? But supposing tomorrow there is a giant cyclone or something or hurricane and they don't even go to war or go to battle. Then how was it true that A wins the battle tomorrow, they are not even going to battle? So it can't be true today that A wins tomorrow, it is only a supposition. The truth is, Mr. Aristotle, your supposition is wrong and groundless.

There is only one way and I said it in the beginning of the study, there is only one way that we can know whether they win the battle tomorrow and therefore it's true today to say it. There is only one way and that is IF GOD PREDICTS IT.

You take God out of the equation and you can suppose all you want, because there is no way to state that anything that's going to happen tomorrow is true today. Because it may not happen. A could send all his men home, they leave and all go home, so they don't fight. B is out there ready to fight, but where are they? They all went home, see.

That's why free will is predicated on the foreknowledge of God! The foreknowledge of God is what wipes it out. If God knows what will happen, nothing that any one can do can prevent it from happening.

Somebody said something about there are causes that bring about whether A would win anyway. Maybe A is going to win because God is going to perform a miracle, you know, he is just going to sink the other fleet by some bad weather and they don't even go to war. But A won. So there are causes.

That's what's wrong with this guys email, he thinks a little too much like Aristotle. He jumps from A to Z and everything between A to Z is the same lustful, carnal minded living that he "wants." He thinks that if A is being born and Z is entering the kingdom of God and he thinks that whatever he does at B,C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K... he will still end up in the kingdom of God "regardless." That's not true.

Is it true that you will end up in the kingdom of God? Absolutely, but not by doing A lusting after all the women, robbing, stealing, cheating or whatever and doing it in stage B of his life and stage C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P... No.!

You have got to be able to see through these stupid arguments. So are we making sense so far?


                                                 ROBOT?

So the argument is, without free will, then we must be nothing but robots. Oh really? How many times do you hear that said, I mean it's so many, many, many times. They think that's a logical argument. It's either this or that. Oh really? Is there only black and white, are there no shades gray? Are there not colors red, blue, green? Is everything black and white?

So either we have free will or we are stupid dumb robot? No. Now what if there are some similarities between robots and humans? Is that a bad thing? You all have seen robot, right? They operate just like the human skeleton with muscles on it. Is that not similar? Does not a robot look like a strange mechanical man, kind of? Right? Of course there are similarities, what's wrong with that? They say, 'oh robot, that's an ugly word, a machine. We don't want a machine.' Machines are wonderful things.

Your body has little machines in them too. You see that one little thing in the cell that's made like a motor boat with a propeller on the back?  It is incredible what they are finding out. What else is in there? It is some amazing stuff.

Okay so yes there are some similarities between a man an a machine and a man an a robot. But there are a lot of dissimilarities too.

Do robots have faith? No.

Do robots have emotions? Do they get happy, are they happy some days and sad some days and melancholy? No.

Are robots creative? No, they do exactly what they are programmed to do or else they screw up whatever it is they are suppose to be making.

Are robots capable of love?

Do robots learn? Now I know they are working on intelligent design, but that's not the kind of learning that I'm talking about. I'm talking about a much higher level.

[Kat]

                                LEARNING THROUGH STRUCTURED LIVING

If we had free will there is no guarantee that anyone would ever do anything right. Why? Because the will is always free, there is nothing there, no law, no principle to guide it to go this way or that. It's always free to do whatever it wants. Always free, no hindrances. So if we think the world is chaotic now, imagine if people did have free will and God was not controlling things.

We are born in a structured environment and we are taught by our parents. We are taught how to play with things, we are taught how to eat and so on. We learn. We learn those things. Now those things that we learn are the things that cause us to think and do the things we do when we are a little older. You never forget how to walk when you are 6, 7, 8, 9. You will have learned it at age 1, but you are still doing it at age 5, 6, 7, 8, right? You learn these things. Robots don't learn things like that.

Then we go to school. School is structured. You are not free to not go to class or not do your homework or not listen to the instructions, you will flunk out. People do flunk out, but what I'm saying is the structure is there to help you to learn. Hopefully to learn to do things better and more beneficial for humanity, it's the derelicts that drop out. Why do they? Because they are not learning, they are not inculcating the good principles that they should have been learning as children. So they are operating by the law of sin and death, by their lusts. They are still operating under law, but those that become more useful, they learn to operate under a structured environment. When you go to work for somebody, they tell you how and what to do, you're not free to just do it any ole way. There is structure you see.

God is putting us through a lifetime of all kinds structured living and we are suppose to learn from that. Whether we are rebels or saints we do learn. Even criminals learn how to do things, some of them are very clever.

We are so far from robots. We are so marvelously made that it's almost an insult to suggest that either you have free will or you are a robot, that's just nonsense.


                                    LEARNING VS FREEDOM OF WILL

So we learn. Now that is one of the things that separates us from a robot, we learn. So let's take that a little further in some of these stupid arguments. They say, 'well God doesn't want robots, He wants us to love Him freely.' Excuse me, how do you love someone 'freely.' I mean you can love them voluntarily, but how do you love them without a cause? When we talk about free will, we are talking about causality. What causes you to think or do.

So if you love God voluntarily, how can you love Him if you are made to love Him? I mean I have had this thrown in my face a hundred times over the years now, 'Ray God doesn't want robots. Because if you don't have this freedom of will to love God, then you are just a robot.' Well now here is one place where the robot out shines the human, quite frankly.

A robot working on an assembly line will always get it right. Humans don't, they make mistakes, they drop things. You see there are all kinds of things. But as long as a robot is functioning and the gears are right, it always gets it right. So in some ways robots are superior to humans, especially those operating under the law of sin and death.

So the argument, God doesn't want robots... excuse me. How do you love God unless there are things that make you love Him? Right away they say, 'God doesn't force anybody to love Him.' I didn't use the word 'force,' and let's back off the word 'make,' let's bring it down to 'inspire.' That is also a cause. It doesn't matter what brings it about, if something brings it about it was caused. Inspiration can bring things about.

So how can you love, not only God, how can you love anybody without a cause. Not only is it impossible, but the whole idea is stupid. Instead of me loving my wife I might as well love a rock. If there is nothing that inspires in either one to love them, I might as well love a rock just as much as my wife. People think that they believe things that they really don't. That's where deception come in.

What makes real sense is to be able to learn things. To learn things and based on what you learned make sound decisions.

If people had free will and they never learned anything, it would be totally useless. But the minute you start talking about learning, you start throwing out the free will. Because now you base what you do and think, not on your freedom of will, but on what you learned.

Some people will say phrases like, 'well you can't legislate morality.' Well that has a certain amount of truth to it, you can legislate some morality.

You know we have speed limits for example, some people go over a little bit, but you can't drive down this highway 120, at least you won't do it too often or you will go to jail. If you go to jail too often or stay there too long, guess what? You won't want to do that anymore. You can have your freedom of will or whatever you think you've got, but you won't want to do that anymore. Because you have 'learned' that when you do this, the consequences are that, and 'that' is not much fun. You learn.

The very fact that we learn to do things and learn to do the right things, now that makes sense. I mean a robot that always does the right thing, makes more sense than a human who thinks he has free will and never does the right thing. Doesn't it?

So how great is this free will? The church teach that everybody's got it. This is the greatest gift God every gave man. What's so great about it? If you had freedom of the will, which you don't, but if you did what would be good it? What?


                                      FREE WILL DOESN'T WORK

Let's take their premise that mankind has been given free will... Adam and Eve had free will. Now if you ask them, do you mean by the freedom of the will and can either decide to do what's right or can decide to do what's wrong and nothing can make me do one or the other? Is that what you mean by the freedom of the will? They will tell you, 'yes, nothing can make you.' In other words, if something makes you do something against your will, then you don't have freedom of the will. You have free will so you can, meaning I have that ability. So yes a person with free will has the power and ability to choose good over evil, is that what you are telling me? They say, 'yes that's what I'm telling you.' Wrong paleface.

If there were such a thing as free will than we know one thing for sure, it doesn't work. It's broken. Adam and Eve sinned, Cain killed his own brother and on down the line... all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God.

Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:12  ...there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

That's stupid, you can't say something like that, if we have free will. Free will means that you can go this way or you can go that way and nothing makes you always go that way. Well then why has the whole human race always gone that way?

If the humans have free will how does God know that anyone will be saved? How can He know that? Or how could He know that it would be proportional? What makes Him think that most won't and a few will? Why? They all have equal free will, don't they? If it's equal then there is no reason under the sun why all shouldn't go the wrong way... or all shouldn't go right way... or at least be a mixture. The law of probability might enter that, I'm not sure I would have to think about that.

But if "all have sinned" and "there is none that doeth good, no, NOT ONE." Well then something is making people choose bad over good. Therefore their will is not free, if the whole human race chooses WRONG.

All babies are greedy at birth and under one year old. They all grab and take away toys from other children, that is natural. They all yell and scream when they don't get what they want. They all throw temper tantrums, accept my children didn't. But they were bad and I trained them early. They didn't throw tempter tantrums for sure, neither one ever threw a temper tantrum. But you have to teach them, they don't on there own do all these right and good things.

If you don't believe me you raise a teenager. There are those rebellious years, it is very difficult, but thank God they can learn. They see by the things that they SUFFER that it is better to do this, than to do that. What does that do to free will? It throws it out the window.

So why is it that you do this now, instead of that? Because it hurts when you do that. This whole life is made up of pain. We make decisions all day long trying to get away from pain, suffering, misery, fear, anguish, hunger. We don't like those things, so we do the opposite. Those are CAUSES that bring about those things.

So if everybody does what is wrong, then how is God going to get them to do what is right? Remember the argument, He won't interfere with your free will, you must do it freely. Why the whole Christian doctrine topples.

Jesus Christ said "you haven't chosen Me.

John 15:16  Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you...

Ask any minister in the world and say, I'm a sinner, if I want to choose to follow Christ now, can I do that? They say, 'absolutely my son, yes, praise the Lord.' Now if he were a true minister of God he would say no, you absolutely cannot. It says;

John 6:44  No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him:

Draw him or call him or drag him, the Greek is drag him. You can't choose it on your own, because why? You are living according to the laws sin and death. Something has to intervene in your life to make you want to do different. Make you!


                                  JUDGEMENTS AND SUFFERING

If people have free will how is it God is going to bring about a righteous world where everybody does what's right? I'll give you one grand Scripture. They say, 'you took that out of context Ray.' Well give it to me in context. I ask a guy that recently, I said give me that verse in context.

Isa 26:9  ...for when Thy (that's God) judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

How will they learn it? Through "judgments." Judgments are painful. It's not by getting a ice cream sundae every time you think a good thought and bad things happen when you think bad thoughts. But see it takes judgments. That's the only way people will learn to be righteous, you've got to go through judgments.

Sometimes we think they are too hard. I thought some of mine were too hard. My wife thinks hers are too hard. They are pretty hard, very very hard, very very tough. But I don't have any doubt that the reason behind it is good., because we even learn of Christ.

Heb 5:8  Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;

It doesn't mean He was ever un-obedient, He just learned to be obedient by the things which He suffered. He learned what it was like to obey God and go in the wilderness and not eat for forty days and forty nights, getting very hungry and almost starving to death. That how He learned that that obedience is a form of suffering.

It's been brought up that if we don't have free will then what good are commandments and threats in the Bible? The Bible is full of do this, don't do that, if you do this I'll do that to you. If you don't have free will to answer these things, then why does He propose it then? Why does He propose, here is a commandment and here is what will happen if you don't do it, if you don't have free will? Excuse me? What good are commandments and threats if you do have free will? Turn it around, what good are threats and commandments if you do have? The 'threat' is the CAUSE to get you to keep the commandment.

It's like the guy that said, 'we have free will.' Why are you a Christian? 'I was afraid to go to hell.' Wait a minute, you thought that was a pretty strong threat I guess, didn't you? He surely did. There isn't such a hell, but at least from his perspective he thinks so and that's what made him do it. Yet he would turn around and tell you he has free will and nobody made him make that decision or nothing. Nobody or nothing.


                                      GOD IS OPERATING

So what a lot of people fail to recognize is, we are born and God says all of humanity is going to be in His family one day. It does matter what happens in the interim from our perspective. You have good people and bad people. Infants die at birth or a day old or a week old or a year old or five years old. So how do they go from that to entering the family of God? They haven't even experienced the reason for humanity and our existence and so on. Well the Scriptures talk about that.

Isa 65:20  There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old...

A baby will live to be a hundred years old and will learn. So there is provisions for all these things.

So you're born and at some place you enter the kingdom of God. That's the goal of the human family. But what happens between A and Z? God is in control of it and since He is in control of it... it's not that everything just automatically goes from A to Z and God just says it's that way. He does say He 'operates.' Now there is another twist to this, okay. He just doesn't say that I wind it up and now it goes until it reaches the end. God is operating everything according to the council of His own will.

See that then throws a monkey wrench to into Aristotle's A and B battling for the victory at sea. Because between now and tomorrow maybe the reason one is victorious is something that hasn't happened yet today. By tomorrow they might have come up with a plan that they didn't have today. They say, 'wow that's a great plan.' That plan is what brings the victory. That just like the final outcome was not true today, neither was the plan true today, because it didn't exist, it had to come into existence. So you can't, there is no way to say everything would have to have a known future, even if there was no God. Not necessarily, because God is operating. So these things are brought to pass.


                                    THE BOTTOM LINE:

Because God had foreknowledge of all things no one is free to do or think or say anything that would make that foreknowledge false. Therefore you don't have foreknowledge.

All these argument about, 'well maybe God lives outside of time, so what happens in time can be known ahead of time, without time.' It's all just nonsensical gyrations of the brain. It proves nothing, you can't make it so that you have free will and God Himself doesn't know what you are going to do. But He does know!

If He does know it, then it can't be differently and if it can't be different, than you can't have made a different choice. You couldn't have! So it wasn't free. What you decided to do was not free to not happen, if God knew you were going to do it. That's it in a nut shell.

I want to talk about some of these other things so that we understand that there are episodes in our life that must come about a certain way and God controls that. It doesn't matter some will believe and some won't, God's in control. We have already determined it's not of free will, it all of God.

It's interesting, ask any Christian if they made a decision to be a Christian or whatever and if God didn't force them and then you say, you mean God has not inspired you? 'Oh yeah.' Are you taking credit for your own salvation? 'Oh no, it's all of God.' Well not all, I mean you contributed a lot, most? 'Oh no it was all of God.' Well if it was all of God, then why do you need free will? What good is free will, if it's all of God why do you want free will? See what I mean? You get them trapped at every corner, you just can not get around it. The whole thing is humbling and people don't want to be humbled.