Is this a worthy subject

[dave]

Gen 3:16 And to the woman He says, "Multiplying, yea, multiplying am I your grief and the groaning of your pregnancy. In grief shall you bear sons. "Yet by your husband is your restoration, and he shall rule over you. (CLV)

Gen 3:16  Unto the woman He said, `Multiplying I multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow dost thou bear children, and toward thy husband is thy desire, and he doth rule over thee.' (YLT)

Gen. 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (ASV)

If I may ask, does this verse read that He (Lord God) already had it in His plan that woman would have  "had" pain in child birth, before eating the forbidden fruit? And that it would be increased(greatly) now and in the future?   
I find it interesting that He would chastise the woman who(m) He made  to bear children, and that the way He would use to correct her, was MORE pain than original.  Or am I off base?

Also I am told that the woman is the "soul" and that it is this soul that is the driving force of man. That it is the soul/woman that must come around. If this be true, why does it say that...
"and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."(ASV)
"Yet by your husband is your restoration, and he shall rule over you. (CLV)
thy husband is thy desire, and he doth rule over thee.' (YLT)

If it is the soul/woman is the force or appettite?

[mharrell08]

Also I am told that the woman is the "soul" and that it is this soul that is the driving force of man. That it is the soul/woman that must come around.

Who told you this? Is this from bible-truths?

[dave]

NO! Absolutly not! I dont see it that way. I was reading and that verse stood out as a defence against that thought

[dave]

If my posts and questions have no interest on this forum please let me know. I found BibleTruths and have found that 99% of what Ray teaches is biblical and very true to the Word. I also am able to think. Sometimes I read in the Bible and I have questions they do not fall in line with Ray or any other teaching, that is why I post. I have asked several questions from members of this forum that I consider well read and burdened with knowledge. Kat, mharrell08, Dave from Kentucy, and Samson among others.
I regard their veiws very highly. So if my questions are out of the realm of what I am supposed to ask, I apologize, it is not my intent.

[longhorn]

I think it probably hurts to have a baby.  I mean, it just looks like it would. 

Longhorn

[dave]

How do you know that?  I dont doubt it,...... but what has that got to do with the post and my queery?

[Kat]

Hi Micah7:9,

Your question was okay. It may just take a little time before someone drops in that can give you an answer.

Also I am told that the woman is the "soul" and that it is this soul that is the driving force of man.

As far as I know everybody (man and woman) becomes a living soul when the breath of life enter the body. Here is an email.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3747.0 -----------------

True, at death one's spirit returns to God, but it has no consciousness whatsoever. The consciousness is in the soul. Man IS a living soul, and when He dies, he is a dead soul. It is neither the soul, nor the body which are said to "sleep" in death, but rather that death itself is called "sleep."

If I may ask, does this verse read that He (Lord God) already had it in His plan that woman would have  "had" pain in child birth, before eating the forbidden fruit? And that it would be increased(greatly) now and in the future?  

I fully believe that everything that happens is exactly as it was intended to be. God is sovereign and knows how this all will end, so He must know every detail of what is to happen before then, "declaring the end from the beginning" (Isa 46:10). So yes He did already have it in His plan for woman to have the type of childbirth that we do. It only appears from our prespective in that verse that God decided to do something different or changed His mind. Here is an email that may help with this.

http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm -----------------------

[Ray Replies]
 
Dozens of times (maybe hundreds) God speaks to us AS IF He were a man. But God is NOT A MAN.

Some examples:

"And the Lord REPENTED [changed His mind] of the evil which He thought to do unto His people" (Ex. 32:14).

Vs.

"And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man that he should repent [change His mind]" (I. Sam. 15:29).

Is this a flat out Biblical contradiction? NO. One statement is from man's point of view, and the other is from God's point of view. One is the RELATIVE, while the other is the ABSOLUTE.

"...choose you this day whom ye will serve" (Josh. 24:15).

Vs.

"Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you..." (John 15:16).

The relative point of view from man's position seems to put the ability to choose on man's shoulders, while the ABSOLUTE truth from God's position is that 'no one CAN come to Me...." (John 6:44).

"...whosoever does not righteousness is NOT of God" (I John 3:10).

Vs.
 
"ALL is of God" (II Cor. 5:18).

Unrighteousness is NOT of God's heart. Those who doe wickedness are of their father the devil, Jesus said. Yet, even THAT is OF GOD in the ultimate sense.

One more:

"Zachariah was JUST before God" (Luke 1:5).  

Vs.  

"NOT ONE is JUST" (Rom. 3:10).

Again, Zachariah was "just" FROM MAN'S point of view. When comparing him with all the other corrupt priests, Zachariah certainly appeared to be JUST. But from God's ABSOLUTE point of view, not even Zachariah was just.

And so there are hundreds of just such statements in Scripture that appear to make God out to be HUMAN, with HUMAN anatomy (eyes, ears, face, hair, arms, etc.) when in reality God IS SPIRIT and has ABSOLUTELY NO HUMAN ANATOMY.

When God asked:  "Where art thou Adam?" Are we to assumed that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHERE ADAM WAS HIDING??   And then, "WHO TOLD YOU that you were naked?" Does God REALLY NOT KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THESE SIMPLE QUESTIONS?

It was for ADAMS SAKE that God asked: "Where art thou" and "who told you that you are naked." From man's point of view God "repented" or "changed His mind." But God has not revealed to the whole world that ALL IS OF HIM, and he NEVER EVER CHANGES ANYTHING! Now do you see and understand. Good.

There are thousands of highly educated theologians and teachers that do not grasp these simplest of Bible Truths.

God be with you,

Ray

[mharrell08]

How do you know that?  I dont doubt it,...... but what has that got to do with the post and my queery?

Longhorn's just showing his sense of humor, that's all. He helps keep things light from time to time...so we don't take ourselves too seriously. 

Like Kat said, give the members some time and I'm sure a helpful discussion will ensue.


P.S. A good friend on this forum taught me a valuable lesson: Less is More. Try to be more direct with a subject when seeking a discussion...one doesn't have to post a dozen scriptures, we all have bibles. Just get to the meat of an issue...trust me, it works. 

[dave]

 

[Amelia]

Yes, I think that this is a worthy subject for discussion.   It seems as if God has a worse punishment for Eve than He does for Adam, doesn't it?   But I believe that God is just letting us know how things are going to be.  After Adam and Eve ate of the tree of good and evil they indeed found out how it was to be without the communication that they had enjoyed with God previously.  Something had changed.
Feelings that they had not experience before were in them and they were real.  All seemed OK before, and now something was wrong.  And as all of us at one time or another feel ashamed and wanting to hide, so did they.   Sorry, I seem to be getting away from the question asked.     

Kat hit it right on when she says that God is sovereign. He knows the end from the beginning.  We don't, we are in the process of knowing, not only ourselves but our Spirit Father, through His Son, Jesus Christ.   Paul said that he did not want to know anything else but Jesus Christ.   And when we see everything in Him, we understand how it is the in Him- we live, in Him- we move, and in Him- we have our existence.   He is the one Who decided according to His own counsel how His plan was to unfold, and which role each one of us was to play in his life.  Knowing God's plan for us, brings me great comfort, because me too, am beginning to know "the end from the beginning" in Jesus, of course.   I don't know if this helps any??

[dave]

Yes, all is well,

[Kat]

Hi Amelia,

Knowing God's plan for us, brings me great comfort, because me too, am beginning to know "the end from the beginning" in Jesus, of course.

That is a interesting comment, I don't think I have ever thought if it that way before, but it certainly is true. We are beginning to understand the end results of this creation. Sometimes I think how we are being given the answer to that fundamental question, what is this life all about. How great is it to have the peace of this knowledge, but we can not really share it with the rest of the world, they look on what we have to say as foolishness. We do have one another here though and that is a a wonderful blessing for us to have each other to discuss these things with 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[onelovedread]

So basically, we're not able to answer the question, right?

[dave]

Yes, but for me its just on a back burner.

[G. Driggs]

We know from Ray papers that "women" are symbolic of the church. Either the Babylonian Church or the Church who has been called out.

I think Longhorn is right on, very straight forward and to the point. Giving birth to a child was always meant to hurt, the physiology of a woman is proof. I'm not a woman so correct me if I'm wrong. I was with my wife during one childbirth, and everything about it seemed painful. Could literal childbirth have been any other way? I dont know, maybe.

So it might be safe to say that Gen. 3:16 is only a shadow of an higher spiritual reality. As is all of the Old Testament. There is a whole mountain of spiritual truth in Gen. 3:16. I looked up a few keywords in esword that I thought might be related to Gen. 3:16 and it was awesome. :)I mean there is a lot there. I'll give you a couple I found to be interesting.

Isa 26:17  Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

I really like what Ray has to say about it.

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake7.html

Locked within the symbolic language of the seven churches of Revelation is one of the most intriguing revelations of the spiritual weaknesses of mankind that we could ever discover. Out of these spiritual weaknesses, God is calling a people that will have great strength. Much of the strength and character and godliness are acquired by the very act of coming out of this corrupted system. It is akin to the pains of childbirth. You women are asking how I would know anything about that, seeing I never gave birth to a child. Okay, then, the pain can be horrific like an abscessed tooth (I have experienced that). The tooth must come out. And if the infant does not come out, it will die and the mother as well.
-------

Worthy and interesting question micah7:9.

Peace,

G.Driggs

[Duane]

Micah 7:9  "the SOUL (woman) is the driving force behind every man??  I think there have been some pretty successful bachelors, ie:  George Eastman-Kodak
Yet there is that saying "behind every successful man is a woman".  So it goes....

[dave]

Please I have not bought into the teaching, nor do I agree. I know that the teaching has been out there for some time, I cannot see it.

[Duane]

ooops!