Ray's response about Enoch

[Revilonivek]

 I am sure this is age old question for some of you on the forum,  so maybe you will have an answer already for this and help me.  This caught my eye and wanted to seek some understanding and clear this up.  My question is about Enoch.  I found this email between Israel and Ray concerning Elijah and Enoch. I can't help but notice  Ray's explanation regarding Enoch.  Let me explain why below.

Ray = Green
Israel= Red
Denise= Black

Jesus said that no man ascended to heaven except for Him, right.  The question I got is what happened to Enoch in Genesis 5:24 and Elijah.  It didn't say they died. So where did they go.  Did they just become angels or something.  Your help with this question, and all of the help you've given in building the kingdom of God is deeply appreciated.  You've laid down the bricks of truth like a expert brick layer.  I'm sure your house will be shown to be made of gold, silver, and jewels to the glory of the Father and our Lord Jesus.

With the Love of the Father,
Israel


Dear Israel:

I get asked this question month in and month out, year after year.  You say that "It [the Bible] didn't say they died."

Ah, but it does:

Enoch and Elijah were sinners along with ALL humanity (Rom. 3:23), and the wages of sin is DEATH [death to Enoch & Elijah] (Rom. 6:23).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so DEATH passed upon ALL men [this includes Enoch and Elijah]" (Rom. 5:12).

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die [this includes Enoch & Elijah, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27)

Contrary to Christian fantasy, Elijah did not ascend to the throne room of God Almighty, but rather ascended up into the SKY [heaven].  God simply transported him from one location to another.  

Years later, Elijah wrote a letter

"And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father..." (II Chron. 21:12) "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated [translated means to transport--as in from one location to another] him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" Heb. 11:5).

Then in Heb. 11:13 we read this:

"These all died ['all' who? all those mentioned in this chapter of Hebrew, which included Enoch (Ver. 5)] in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

But what about Elijah. His name does not appear in Hebrews as one who "died in faith," does it?  True, his name is not there, but HE IS THERE.  Elijah was a prophet, and the prophets are included in this chapter of "all these DIED"

"...and of the PROPHETS prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms..." (Heb. 11:32-33).

Hope this helps your understanding.

God be with you,

Ray[/font]

scripture says all taste death, however but this scripture says Enoch has not.(yet), said Enoch was special.

Here's what Ray says regarding hebrew 11:5

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated [translated means to transport--as in from one location to another] him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" Heb. 11:5).

But the Scripture says

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found , because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony , that he pleased God.

Red = Metatithemi
Blue = Metathesis
Orange = Thanatos

I looked up esword to see what translated (red)means,Metatithemi it means transport, transfer, exchange, change sides, change, turn, carry over, pervert, etc. pervert means to turn the other way.

Translation is a different greek word Metathesis   means disestablishment, change, removal, transferral etc.

Metathesis is highlighted blue,  found three times  in NT.

Hebrews 7:12; Hebrews 11:5; Hebrews 12:27

Hebrews 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed , there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found , because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony , that he pleased God.

Hebrews 12:27
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken , as of things that are made , that those things which cannot be shaken may remain .

and the same word, for Metatithemi is found in an earlier verse.. in Hebrew 7:12 for changed. You can check it yourself in esword.

Hebrews 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed , there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Here's another-the word "turning" is the same word for Metatithemi

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares , who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

In Gal 1:6 the word, "removed" is the same word for Metattithemi, obviously in this scripture, it means to change sides.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
I looked up what death means in this scripture, word for death in this scripture is Thanatos. that means DEATH. plainly as stated.

What does this mean... Scripture says Enoch was translated so he will not see death....

So even if Ray means it means transport, but it doesnt' change the meaning of the scripture.


Even if the meaning for translation is different among people. so lets look at it this way..

Enoch was taken, transported, perverted, changed, removed, carried over, so he will not see death(thanatos).... and before his transportion, change, he had his testimony that he has pleased God.

Even if Ray suggest Enoch was transported, but where to ? and scripture says he was transported or changed, for one reason, to avoid death.

Ray is suggesting that  Enoch is dead in a grave somewhere?

see where I'm coming from?

It doesn't make sense...

please  help clear this up.

Thanks so much.

[G. Driggs]

Hi Denise,

Here is a thread from about a year ago with a lot of good info from Ray and forum members about Enoch, death and Heaven.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11290.0.html

Peace,

G.Driggs

[Dave in Tenn]

Genesis 5:24 does not say that Enoch did not die.  

Some other translations:

Gen 5:24  He spent his life in fellowship with God, and then he disappeared, because God took him away.

Enoch walked with God; then he was gone because God took him.

And Enoch walked with God. Then he was not, for God took him.

Does Scripture say that Enoch was 'special' in that he did not die?  Or does it say that God took him away?  

The writer of Genesis is not writing from an omniscient POV.  He was either unable (I believe) or unwilling to say where Enoch had been removed.  We don't have to know where God took Enoch.  It doesn't even have to be a "miraculous" occurence.  God is working in ALL things.

Last thing.  It's written that both Jesus and Paul were at various times "removed", in a manner of speaking, from death.  Didn't they try to stone Christ at one point in John 10?  The scripture says Joh 10:39  Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
Joh 10:40  And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.  Such events are not uncommon in Scripture.  Lots of people 'escaped' death--temporarily.  Enoch was one of them.  Removed to a place the writer either did not know or would not tell, and not heard from again.  

It's odd that in that chapter Jesus tells the Pharisees that the Scripture cannot be broken.  One scripture seems to have been interpreted by some Theologians as meaning Enoch never died.  Other scripture says that all men (all these) die.  Is Enoch part of "all men"?  Can the scripture be broken?  What other possibilities exist?  He ascended into heaven?  No man has ascended into Heaven, said Christ.  He's still alive somewhere on earth?  Why is it so hard to believe a man died?  

That's about the best I can do.  Actually, I've given qute a bit of thought both to Ray's teaching and the controversy over Enoch.  It's been very helpful in many ways.    

[Kat]

Hi Denise,

I look at this verse quite simply.

Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death (at that time); and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

I think what we have in this verse is a stumbling block to the truth. Which is necessary so that the whole world is deceived, for those that want to say that people have went to and are in heaven. But Jesus gave us the absolute statement.

John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

I struggled with this for sometime until I read Rays work. Ive debated it and became very upset with folks who want to "figger" things with the natural mind. I am with Kat and the Word or the Word and Kat,
Jesus said, John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And that is where one should begin and build on that. Just as 1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
These are for me the foundation.

[Revilonivek]

The reason I am confused is because the definition of heaven is not what you think it is.

that's why i asked about enoch..

You're right they didn't really say what really happened to him but that he was taken.

I know John 3:13 says no one has ascended to heaven except for the Son of Man.

But, Let me explain what I understand so far about the Hebrew word Shamayim and Greek word Ouranos regarding the definition of  heaven.

There are many  scriptures but I'll just post some, Its already long as it is here. You can look it up on esword for more scriptures.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air (shamayim), and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." - Genesis 1:26

The Hebrew word for air in this passage is: Shamayim, aka Heaven.

In The New Testament we find the word Ouranos for sky. This is interesting because Ouranos is actually the name of the Greek God of the Sky.

Okay here's the rest:

Genesis 1:8 (King James Version)
8And God called the firmament Heaven(shamayim). And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Job 9:8 (King James Version)
8Which alone spreadeth out the heavens(shamayim), and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Psalm 19:1
1The heavens(shamayim) declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork

Psalm 102:25 (King James Version)
25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens(shamayim) are the work of thy hands.

Isaiah 45:12 (King James Version)
12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens,(shamayim) and all their host have I commanded.

Isaiah 48:13 (King James Version)
13Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens(shamayim): when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Genesis 1:20 (King James Version)
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven(shamayim).

Jeremiah 4:25 (King James Version)
25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens(shamayim) were fled.

2 Kings 2:11 (King James Version)

11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven(shamayim).

Okay lets focus on Ouranos

Matthew 6:26 (King James Version)
26Behold the fowls of the air(ouranos): for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Acts 1:10-11 (King James Version)
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven(ouranos) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven(ouranos)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven(ouranos), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven(ouranos).

Acts 2:34 (King James Version)
34For David is not ascended into the heavens(ouranos): but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Acts 7:49 (King James Version)
49Heaven(ouranos) is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Matthew 8:20 (King James Version)
20And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air(ouranos) have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Acts 10:12 (King James Version)
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air(ouranos).

Matthew 24:29-31 (King James Version)
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven(ouranos), and the powers of the heavens(ouranos) shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(ouranos): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven(ouranos) with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven(ouranos) to the other.

Revelation 4 (King James Version)

Revelation 4
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven(ouranos): and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven(ouranos), and one sat on the throne.

John 3:13 (King James Version)
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven (ouranos), but he that came down from heaven (ouranos), even the Son of man which is in heaven(ouranos).

So does that mean the Hebrew word "shamayim" and the Greek word "ouranos" both mean the same thing, either it can be "the sky" or the "abode of God

See where I'm coming from?

[dave]

H8064  Heaven   shâmayim  shâmeh The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty[/; the sky (as aloft;

G3772  Heaven ouranos  From G3735 (through the idea of elevation);  From G3735  oros  Probably a from an obsolete word ὄρω orō (to rise or "rear";

Either way I reason that it is nor a specific physical location, it means to be "lofty, elevated."

[Revilonivek]

H8064  Heaven   shâmayim  shâmeh The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty[/; the sky (as aloft;

G3772  Heaven ouranos  From G3735 (through the idea of elevation);  From G3735  oros  Probably a from an obsolete word ὄρω orō (to rise or "rear";

Either way I reason that it is nor a specific physical location, it means to be "lofty, elevated."

Hey there,

esword says it mainly means sky,  God's abode, and air.  and what's interesting is that they used the same greek word  ouranos  because it is also the name of the  greek God of the sky. 

Denise

[Dave in Tenn]

Denise, what we are saying is this:  If Enoch did not (eventually) die, then what happened to him?  It's theologians (some, at any rate) that postulate that he was 'translated into heaven' without having died.  Niether we nor the scripture are saying that.  We're saying--and going back to your original question--Ray is saying that 'yes, Enoch died'--eventually, some unknown time and place after being 'removed' so that he did not see death at the time he was translated.   If that's what you understood Ray to say, you are correct.  

What we're arguing against is a 'theory' of what happened to Enoch if he had NEVER died, as some believe.  What are the 'alternatives' to Enoch being 'in the grave'?  All the 'alternatives' either contradict scripture or are simply not IN scripture and too fanciful to believe.

The definition of heaven is something I'll leave to Ray and to those members who are better at locating relevant teaching.  It's properly not really a part of a discussion about Enoch, since it's not mentioned in the SCRIPTURAL accounts--only in theological explanations.

I hope that helps.

[Marky Mark]

The definition of heaven is something I'll leave to Ray

And Scripture...


http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

SEA, EARTH, AND HEAVEN
There are three realms spoken of in Revelation: sea, earth, and heaven:

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the SEA and upon the EARTH lifted up his hand to HEAVEN, and swore by Him that lives for ever and ever, [for the eons of the eons], who created HEAVEN, and the things that therein are, and the EARTH, and the things that therein are, and the SEA, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer [no longer a time of delay]" (Rev. 10:5-6).

The angels [messengers] of God communicate things from heaven to both the earth and the sea:

"And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the ANGEL which stands upon the sea and upon the earth" (Rev. 10:.

There are three realms of humanity and three realms of spiritual understanding. The lowest of all is the sea. Those with at least some spiritual understanding are those who dwell in the earth. And those who have the very mind of Christ are those who dwell in heaven. ALL REALMS will give honor and glory to God:

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, [need I explain that 'fish' do not have the mental capacity to comprehend what is being taught here—these are MEN, MANKIND, HUMANITY] and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and upon the Lamb for the eons of the eons" (Rev. 5:13).

Is this not saying the identical thing that Paul teaches in Phil. 2:10-11:

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, of things [them] in heaven, and things [them] in earth, and things [them] under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

More proof:

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and [inhabitants] of the sea! ..." (Rev. 12:12).

Next notice that:

"And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth , he persecuted the WOMAN [the Church] which brought forth the man child [the manifest sons of God]" (Rev. 12:13).

Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can't get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.

The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now 'spiritually-minded;' dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth.




Peace...Mark

[Kat]

Hi Denise,

esword says it mainly means sky,  God's abode, and air.  and what's interesting is that they used the same greek word  ouranos  because it is also the name of the  greek God of the sky.

Heaven can mean sky, air or God's abode, it depends on the context of what is being spoken of. But the kingdom of heaven/God where He has His abode is not a place off some where, it is not a location.

Luke 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

When Jesus stated "no one has ascended up to heaven" (John 3:13), that was true because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1Co 15:50). I believe the Enoch was still flesh and blood when he was taken up.

Here are a few places where Ray mentions this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4138.0.html -----------

        The "Kingdom of God" also known as the "Kingdom of the heavenS," is God's domain, where He resides.  To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom. At present we are merely begotten, awaiting a new birth into His Kingdom. This Kingdom has no end after the physical has passed away. Etc. 


http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html -------------------------------------

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"  (Gen. 1;1).

We all know what the earth is. The heavens, however, is a different matter. The physical heaven is where we find the moon, sun, and stars. But God's domain is a spiritual heaven.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world [Gk: 'age'], against spiritual [Gk: 'spiritual powers of, or spiritual hosts of, or spiritual forces of'] wickedness in high places [Gk: 'heavenly places']" (Eph. 6:12).

So God created the plural "heavens" "in the beginning." And Paul tells us that there are "principalities and powers" in these "heavenly places" or "celestials" as it is in the Greek. And that these "principalities and powers" are powers, hosts, or forces that are "wicked!"

"For by Him [Jesus] were all things created that are in the heaven [Gk: 'heavens"—it is plural in the Greek as it is in the Hebrew], and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers ALL things were created by Him, and for Him" (Col. 1:16).

"Principalities and powers" are part of the "all" which Jesus created "in the beginning," at the beginning of creation. And these "principalities and powers" are "wicked" forces, which we wrestle against. These powers are under authority. 
v
v
No, Jesus does not live far far away on the other side of the universe in a place called heaven. Heaven is not a place; heaven is the realm of spirit. Jesus does not sleep in heaven. Jesus does not live in a physical heaven. Jesus will not live in a physical body full of holes, for the rest of eternity either. It is impossible to even think about these important issues of life with the mentality of Christian doctrines. Jesus Christ is "spirit": "Now the Lord is that SPIRIT..." (II Cor. 3:17).


http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#babel ----------------------

Nimrod did not think that he could really build a tower that would go to heaven, but rather to reach into the heavens as a tall tree or mountain.

Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock.

God's heaven is a higher spiritual realm of life and existence, not a geographical location in outer space.

Hope that helps a little.
Ray

[daywalker]

Hebrews 9:27... Ezekiel 18:4,20... Ecclesiastes 3:19-20


We may never know exactly what happened to Enoch, but either (1) he eventually died or (2) all these above verses are lies which would therefore mean the bible is not God's Word and we are all wasting our time here, and in the words of Isaiah:

"Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." Isaiah 22:13

or something...


Daywalker 

[dave]

This may not be relevent to anything, but I feel led to speak it here. Many years ago, I believed that the Lord showed me in at a time when I was just sitting there with my eyes closed, pondering on Him and all that He had made, this world and all thats in it. I was just awaken to the understanding (no God did not speak to me, God just let me know.... No, no angels) that all the things that have happened, are happening, will happen, are just happening in the gleam or twinkle in His eye.
Should He have the desire to bring me, or anything or anyone to an end, all He had to do was blink......and all, everything that we know as real, would just not be. Everything we have known, know, or will know is not, because He just stopped it.
I have always found that comforting.

[Revilonivek]

This may not be relevent to anything, but I feel led to speak it here. Many years ago, I believed that the Lord showed me in at a time when I was just sitting there with my eyes closed, pondering on Him and all that He had made, this world and all thats in it. I was just awaken to the understanding (no God did not speak to me, God just let me know.... No, no angels) that all the things that have happened, are happening, will happen, are just happening in the gleam or twinkle in His eye.
Should He have the desire to bring me, or anything or anyone to an end, all He had to do was blink......and all, everything that we know as real, would just not be. Everything we have known, know, or will know is not, because He just stopped it.
I have always found that comforting.

Hey-

Yes, everything that we gain knowledge of, it's under God's control. God's 7 spirits is love, knowledge, wisdom, strength, fear, etc. Of course, even with our human imperfection, in particular, our spiritual imperfectness, emotional imperfectness and mental imperfectness. In summary, our mental, spirit and body imperfection, God will fix this and we will know the real truth when all of this is over. Even God said that once everything is set right and everything under God, God will cause us to forget what  hell we went through. You are absolutely correct. God is sovereign in everything, through everything and through it all.
God bless you Micah 7:9 for reminding us all. 

[Revilonivek]

Hebrews 9:27... Ezekiel 18:4,20... Ecclesiastes 3:19-20


We may never know exactly what happened to Enoch, but either (1) he eventually died or (2) all these above verses are lies which would therefore mean the bible is not God's Word and we are all wasting our time here, and in the words of Isaiah:

"Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." Isaiah 22:13

or something...


Daywalker 

Daywalker-

Yes you are right-  The verses did not SAY that Enoch went to heaven. It  just plainly says he was NOT FOUND, for God TOOK HIM. Just didn't say where God took him to.

So maybe God just took him somewhere else so he can protect Enoch's pure heart. That scripture seems almost  incomplete but it is what it says...I suppose. It was nagging at me because it said, God translated Enoch so he will not see death. Maybe they meant to say, as we are spiritually dead and through Jesus, we are made alive.

so maybe Enoch was already pure of heart, and God wanted to protect his purity so HE took Enoch away from his family and friends and life,  so it stays pure and not experience spiritual death?

just a thought?

what do you think?

Denise

[Revilonivek]

Hi Denise,

esword says it mainly means sky,  God's abode, and air.  and what's interesting is that they used the same greek word  ouranos  because it is also the name of the  greek God of the sky.

Heaven can mean sky, air or God's abode, it depends on the context of what is being spoken of. But the kingdom of heaven/God where He has His abode is not a place off some where, it is not a location.

Luke 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

When Jesus stated "no one has ascended up to heaven" (John 3:13), that was true because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1Co 15:50). I believe the Enoch was still flesh and blood when he was taken up.

Here are a few places where Ray mentions this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4138.0.html -----------

       The "Kingdom of God" also known as the "Kingdom of the heavenS," is God's domain, where He resides.  To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom. At present we are merely begotten, awaiting a new birth into His Kingdom. This Kingdom has no end after the physical has passed away. Etc.  


http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html -------------------------------------

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"  (Gen. 1;1).

We all know what the earth is. The heavens, however, is a different matter. The physical heaven is where we find the moon, sun, and stars. But God's domain is a spiritual heaven.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world [Gk: 'age'], against spiritual [Gk: 'spiritual powers of, or spiritual hosts of, or spiritual forces of'] wickedness in high places [Gk: 'heavenly places']" (Eph. 6:12).

So God created the plural "heavens" "in the beginning." And Paul tells us that there are "principalities and powers" in these "heavenly places" or "celestials" as it is in the Greek. And that these "principalities and powers" are powers, hosts, or forces that are "wicked!"

"For by Him [Jesus] were all things created that are in the heaven [Gk: 'heavens"—it is plural in the Greek as it is in the Hebrew], and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers ALL things were created by Him, and for Him" (Col. 1:16).

"Principalities and powers" are part of the "all" which Jesus created "in the beginning," at the beginning of creation. And these "principalities and powers" are "wicked" forces, which we wrestle against. These powers are under authority.  
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No, Jesus does not live far far away on the other side of the universe in a place called heaven. Heaven is not a place; heaven is the realm of spirit. Jesus does not sleep in heaven. Jesus does not live in a physical heaven. Jesus will not live in a physical body full of holes, for the rest of eternity either. It is impossible to even think about these important issues of life with the mentality of Christian doctrines. Jesus Christ is "spirit": "Now the Lord is that SPIRIT..." (II Cor. 3:17).


http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#babel ----------------------

Nimrod did not think that he could really build a tower that would go to heaven, but rather to reach into the heavens as a tall tree or mountain.

Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock.

God's heaven is a higher spiritual realm of life and existence, not a geographical location in outer space.

Hope that helps a little.
Ray

Hi Kat,

The reason I bought that up is because  scriptures show that some people in the bible believed God lives in the sky, space (heaven). I was only pointing out that ouranos mainly mean the physical sky or space. So it explains why people, unconverted at the time, believed God lives in the literal sky or space. (Heaven) but Jesus pointed out clearly that the kingdom of God is a whole different thing. It represent our spiritual perfectness and we cannot enter spiritual perfectness unless we possess the spirit of perfectness. The kingdom of God is not th same as Heaven in the bible as people say. that is why people thought heaven is a physical location.

So when Jesus stated "no one has ascended up to heaven" (John 3:13) the word behind heaven in this scripture is ouranos.
He meant to say no one has literally ascended to the skies(heaven) except for him. is what I was simply pointing out..

Denise

[daywalker]

Hebrews 9:27... Ezekiel 18:4,20... Ecclesiastes 3:19-20


We may never know exactly what happened to Enoch, but either (1) he eventually died or (2) all these above verses are lies which would therefore mean the bible is not God's Word and we are all wasting our time here, and in the words of Isaiah:

"Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." Isaiah 22:13

or something...


Daywalker 

Daywalker-

Yes you are right-  The verses did not SAY that Enoch went to heaven. It  just plainly says he was NOT FOUND, for God TOOK HIM. Just didn't say where God took him to.

So maybe God just took him somewhere else so he can protect Enoch's pure heart. That scripture seems almost  incomplete but it is what it says...I suppose. It was nagging at me because it said, God translated Enoch so he will not see death. Maybe they meant to say, as we are spiritually dead and through Jesus, we are made alive.

so maybe Enoch was already pure of heart, and God wanted to protect his purity so HE took Enoch away from his family and friends and life,  so it stays pure and not experience spiritual death?

just a thought?

what do you think?

Denise

I highly doubt that, though I'm sure Enoch was much more righteous than those around him. I think the answer is simply Enoch's enemies wanted to kill him, so God moved him somewhere else to save him at that time.

Here's something interesting I read a few weeks back that I don't recall Ray or anyone discussing. In 1 Kings chapter 18, God tells Elijah to go see King Ahab (who had been searching for Elijah for some time). Obadiah finds Elijah, who tells him to go tell the King that he is coming to visit him. Check out Obadiah's response to Elijah:


Verse 7 As Obadiah was walking along, Elijah met him. Obadiah recognized him, bowed down to the ground, and said, "Is it really you, my lord Elijah?"
8 "Yes," he replied. "Go tell your master, 'Elijah is here.'"
9 "What have I done wrong," asked Obadiah, "that you are handing your servant over to Ahab to be put to death?
10 As surely as the LORD your God lives, there is not a nation or kingdom where my master has not sent someone to look for you. And whenever a nation or kingdom claimed you were not there, he made them swear they could not find you.
11 But now you tell me to go to my master and say, 'Elijah is here.'
12 I don't know where the Spirit of the LORD may carry you when I leave you. If I go and tell Ahab and he doesn't find you, he will kill me. Yet I your servant have worshiped the LORD since my youth.
13 Haven't you heard, my lord, what I did while Jezebel was killing the prophets of the LORD? I hid a hundred of the LORD's prophets in two caves, fifty in each, and supplied them with food and water.
14 And now you tell me to go to my master and say, 'Elijah is here.' He will kill me!"


Later in 2 Kings chapter 2, we read that Elijah was "taken up" by God; but apparently this wasn't the first time seeing that Obadiah was scared that God's Spirit might take Elijah away somewhere if he told King Ahab that he'd found him! Obadiah would've been accused of lying to the King, a crime worthy of death! So, Elijah assures Obadiah that he will be visiting the King so he has nothing to worry about (verse 15). This, to me, is clear evidence to support that God took Elijah and Enoch somewhere else on Earth, as opposed to Heaven as Christendom insists.

Hope this helps.

Daywalker 

[dave]

Excellent! Daywalker!

[daywalker]

Great point Daywalker.  When it comes to the OT it's probably safe to say that I've spent more time on Elijah, Enoch, and Elisha than anywhere else.  I never noticed that.  Testimony to the carnal mind doing it's thing I'd venture to say.

Yep, yep, it's just as Ray says (paraphrasing) when something is true, you just keep finding more and more proof that it's true; especially when we "pay attention to all the words!"