> General Discussions
The Second Beast
JohnMichael:
--- Quote ---Also John, you, me and all humanity ARE the beast...not struggling with a beast 'internally'. I'm pretty sure you're no boogeyman either and I can see you just fine.
Is, Was, Will Be simply means the prophecies happen throughout all generations, not that everything is invisible. Sometimes Christ uses parables to describe things that anyone can see with their own 2 eyes. Also, just because something is 'intertwined' does not make it the same. Paul & Peter are 'intertwined' all through the New Testament, but they are two distinct people.
Hope this helps,
Marques
--- End quote ---
Kat said it better than me in her last post.
There was a misunderstanding if my saying "intertwined" was interpreted as me saying the two were exactly the same. Even saying two sides of the same coin doesn't equal "exact same." It just means two parts of a whole. With everything else in Revelations being ONE (7 churches = 1 church, the Judgments = Judgment, etc. etc.), why would the two beasts not make a whole?
Something interesting though. When John first saw the beast coming out of the sea, and then he saw the beast coming out of the earth, the Scriptures intertwine them. When next you see the 1st beast intertwined with something, it's when the Woman is riding it. Coincidence?
mharrell08:
Revelation is one, as in many prophecies foretelling 1 truth: the Unveiling of Jesus Christ. Just as you've stated.
--- Quote from: JohnMichael on May 07, 2011, 06:20:08 PM ---Something interesting though. When John first saw the beast coming out of the sea, and then he saw the beast coming out of the earth, the Scriptures intertwine them. When next you see the 1st beast intertwined with something, it's when the Woman is riding it. Coincidence?
--- End quote ---
Yea, when you say intertwined, that may have confused me as well. Sorry if I added to it. :)
It seems when you say intertwined, you mean mentioned in the same prophecy...is that correct?
And to follow up with the scriptures you mentioned, it would make sense that Mystery Babylon would be riding the Beast seeing that she 'sits on many waters' and the 'inhabitants of the earth are made drunk on her fornication' [Rev 17:1-2]. These 'waters' and 'earth' are talking about different types of people in the world. And ALL people, who have lived, are living, and will live, are the Beast.
My point was that not ALL people are false prophets, as you stated before. Christ said that there would be 'many' false prophets, but many is not all. If that is not what you meant, again, sorry for any confusion. :)
Marques
JohnMichael:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on May 07, 2011, 06:47:42 PM ---Revelation is one, as in many prophecies foretelling 1 truth: the Unveiling of Jesus Christ. Just as you've stated.
--- Quote from: JohnMichael on May 07, 2011, 06:20:08 PM ---Something interesting though. When John first saw the beast coming out of the sea, and then he saw the beast coming out of the earth, the Scriptures intertwine them. When next you see the 1st beast intertwined with something, it's when the Woman is riding it. Coincidence?
--- End quote ---
Yea, when you say intertwined, that may have confused me as well. Sorry if I added to it. :)
It seems when you say intertwined, you mean mentioned in the same prophecy...is that correct?
And to follow up with the scriptures you mentioned, it would make sense that Mystery Babylon would be riding the Beast seeing that she 'sits on many waters' and the 'inhabitants of the earth are made drunk on her fornication' [Rev 17:1-2]. These 'waters' and 'earth' are talking about different types of people in the world. And ALL people, who have lived, are living, and will live, are the Beast.
My point was that not ALL people are false prophets, as you stated before. Christ said that there would be 'many' false prophets, but many is not all. If that is not what you meant, again, sorry for any confusion. :)
Marques
--- End quote ---
When I said intertwined, I meant connected in the same section of the Scripture (or mentioned in the same prophecy, as you stated). For example, the False Prophet gives power to the Beast, causes man to worship the Beast, etc. They're connected.
(KJV)
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
In Ray's email, he said the False Prophet is a system. What “system” would have these qualities:
1) Have horns like a lamb (a lamb is always a symbol for Christ, the Lamb of God)
2) Speak as a dragon (false doctrines, blasphemies, etc.)
3) Exercise the power of the first Beast
4) Causes man to worship the Beast (himself)
5) Doing great wonders (miracles, healings, casting out demons, etc)
6) Makes fire come down from Heaven
7) Deceive them that dwell on the earth (which represents the called but not chosen)
Etc.
Would that system not be Babylon? When I say Babylon, I mean its preachers/leaders/prophets/doctrines/etc. The Woman is also “connected” with the first beast in Rev 17. With Revelation being one, and the False Prophet being connected with the first beast, I don't think that's a coincidence.
Since most prophesies have multiple applications, could not the False Prophet also symbolize something internal? Babylon's leaders are the outward expression, but could there be an internal application?
When I say internal, I'm meaning of the carnal mind. For those that have had their eyes opened by God, this becomes an internal struggle (“for we wrestle not against flesh and blood" (outward opponents)/ “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”).
Kat made a very interesting point, that this second beast could also symbolize when we see ourselves for what we truly are the second time. The first being when the beast is wounded by the Sword of God, and we see that first glimpse of Jesus, but we fall into manmade doctrines and leave our first love. The second being when God calls us to "Come OUT of her, My people." We then see Babylon's teachings for what they really are as well as our role in them.
I'm not trying to teach or anything. Just trying to maybe better explain the thought process I was having. I don't want to accidentally break the forum rule about “teaching” a “revelation.” If I am even getting close to that line, please warn me. I don't want to be cut off from fellowship with you all. You guys/gals are my family. :)
Also, no need to apologize. I wasn't being as clear as I could have been.
Blessings more abundantly to you all,
John
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: JohnMichael on May 07, 2011, 11:15:00 PM ---When I said intertwined, I meant connected in the same section of the Scripture (or mentioned in the same prophecy, as you stated). For example, the False Prophet gives power to the Beast, causes man to worship the Beast, etc. They're connected.
(KJV)
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
In Ray's email, he said the False Prophet is a system. What “system” would have these qualities:
1) Have horns like a lamb (a lamb is always a symbol for Christ, the Lamb of God)
2) Speak as a dragon (false doctrines, blasphemies, etc.)
3) Exercise the power of the first Beast
4) Causes man to worship the Beast (himself)
5) Doing great wonders (miracles, healings, casting out demons, etc)
6) Makes fire come down from Heaven
7) Deceive them that dwell on the earth (which represents the called but not chosen)
Etc.
Would that system not be Babylon? When I say Babylon, I mean its preachers/leaders/prophets/doctrines/etc. The Woman is also “connected” with the first beast in Rev 17. With Revelation being one, and the False Prophet being connected with the first beast, I don't think that's a coincidence.
--- End quote ---
This is spot on
--- Quote from: JohnMichael on May 07, 2011, 11:15:00 PM ---Since most prophesies have multiple applications, could not the False Prophet also symbolize something internal? Babylon's leaders are the outward expression, but could there be an internal application?
When I say internal, I'm meaning of the carnal mind. For those that have had their eyes opened by God, this becomes an internal struggle (“for we wrestle not against flesh and blood" (outward opponents)/ “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”).
--- End quote ---
It's only an internal struggle when one is trying to 'overcome to world', and that happens in only a few. Babylon and it's leaders are not trying to overcome that in this age. If anything, they are knee-deep in the things of the world.
--- Quote from: JohnMichael on May 07, 2011, 11:15:00 PM ---Kat made a very interesting point, that this second beast could also symbolize when we see ourselves for what we truly are the second time. The first being when the beast is wounded by the Sword of God, and we see that first glimpse of Jesus, but we fall into manmade doctrines and leave our first love. The second being when God calls us to "Come OUT of her, My people." We then see Babylon's teachings for what they really are as well as our role in them.
--- End quote ---
I think you may want to revisit Kat's comments again:
--- Quote ---"But would we all be considered false prophets? I don't know, but I was thinking that this is the preachers/teachers in the Babylonian system. At least that is what I was thinking that email indicated."
--- End quote ---
And this was at the heart of what I was trying to get across:
--- Quote ---My point was that not ALL people are false prophets, as you stated before. Christ said that there would be 'many' false prophets, but many is not all.
--- End quote ---
This is why I stated to look within the scriptures, especially the OT, to see the shadow/type. Not all Israel were false prophets, but like Peter noted, they will come in 'among you'. Just like most people are not commissioned to be teachers of the Truth, most people in Babylon are not appointed to be false ministers. Sometimes they are simply sheep:
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray... (If everyone were a false prophet [shepherd in this scripture] who would be the sheep?)
Also, see this section from Ray latest paper on 23 Minutes in Hell (http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html) under the section 'Contradiction #50, Satan and his Angels'. Ray goes over false prophets old and new, and these are always the leaders in Babylon, not their sheep.
This was a good discussion, let me know what you think about the section above when you have a chance to read.
Thanks,
Marques
JohnMichael:
I can definitely see the truth in that - not all are false prophets. I was just wondering if there was "closer to home" (so to speak) application of that prophecy as well.
However, I'm feeling a conviction of sorts that I'm getting dangerously close to crossing this line:
Craig - How this Forum is Moderated thread
"Still the hardest to ban is a member who has been in good standing for some time and then has a “revelation” and brings their own “teaching” to the rest of us.
If you ever catch yourself falling into the last group, please step back and remember the rules of the forum."
I don't want to cross that line, so I will read these scriptures, and the post you mentioned, and do some praying and reflecting. If something is true, it will stand. If it is false, it will fall.
If I have crossed that line, please forgive me. That was never my intention. As a good friend pointed out to me during a phone conversation, "Maybe that's good advice to just "sit back and let it go." Spend some time in further prayer and reflection on it."
Lord willing, that's what I feel I should do - Sit back and pray for understanding. :)
John
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